Plane-Based Radar: What does it do?

[Q-Ball]

What is the game impact of having a plane equipped with radar? Does it somehow improve search?

The RAF, in particular, has several Coastal Command planes that have small bombloads, but instead have RADAR, like the Liberator GRIII. Is that plane somehow better, in game terms, at search?

Or is it in effect just a Liberator with a small bombload?

[Bo Rearguard]

I believe night fighters equipped with onboard radar have a better chance of intercepting. Not sure about the Liberators though.

[Lomri]

Since the Liberator GR's were used in an ASW role (at least in the atlantic) I always assumed the radar helped with that role. But probably helps in search roles in general. I agree I also always assumed radar helped night fighters as well. My guess is you get some dice role advantage like a recon plane with a camera does.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

What is the game impact of having a plane equipped with radar? Does it somehow improve search?

The RAF, in particular, has several Coastal Command planes that have small bombloads, but instead have RADAR, like the Liberator GRIII. Is that plane somehow better, in game terms, at search?

Or is it in effect just a Liberator with a small bombload?

Rumors always were that radar equipped aircraft are better in spotting their targets. Dunno, never really noticed this. I would always preferre a normal Liberator with full bomb load over those radar equipped ones.

[Zigurat666]

Also I believe radar on planes helped with navigation. So maybe there will be less of the "Group strays from target" messages at night.

[Q-Ball]

As castor says, it's always been a rumor, but nobody seems to notice any material difference. I'm wondering if we're missing something, and they do spot stuff better than planes without.

The Japanese have almost no search planes that include radar, so if the Allied search is that much better, I haven't necessarily seen it

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I would always preferre a normal Liberator with full bomb load over those radar equipped ones.

+1

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666

Also I believe radar on planes helped with navigation. So maybe there will be less of the "Group strays from target" messages at night.

In the hopes that this is actually true I use the radar equipped bombers as night bombers exclusively.

I also limit myself to the use of non-radar equipped bombers in daylight only.

This gives the radar equipped bombers a purpose.

[Chris21wen]

Something I've thought about for a while but struggling with.

A/c radar has a Load, Range, Effect, Accuracy. The first two are obvious the other two not so. Exactly how do the other two help? It gets more confusing when you look at surface rader, as well as the four already mentioned you can now include Penetration. What pray has penetration got to do with radar?

[dr.hal]

Night searches for surface targets should be helped with Radar. Look what coastal command was able to do in the Bay of Biscay in relation to U-Boat egress into the Atlantic.

[HistoryGuy]

I have also asked myself about the benefits of radar in the game, as I have attempted to run "intruder" missions over Japanese airfields at night using Allied night fighters (sweep mode in mission setting). They never make contact. I have also tried to escort night bombing raids with night fighters with no apparent effect. That, however, sort of mirrors history. The intruder missions, both flown by the RAF and Luftwaffe, often proved very effective.

[crsutton]

Really can't prove anything but my sense is that air based ASW search radar is helpful for the Allies. Problem is that non equipped Japanese aircraft are just as effective if the crews are well trained. I rarely train my Allied crews in ASW so it it hard to tell for sure.

Night fighter radar just does not seem to work. I have never seen a difference between true night fighters and just throwing up any fighter in night CAP.

Air search radar on Allied subs seems to be totally useless. It does not seem to have any effect on the Japanese capacity to find and bomb my subs.

Land based air search radar seems to work very well-especially for the Allies which is how it should be.

Ship to ship surface radar works well and gives the Allies a big edge in 44 and 45.

These are my own observations and thoughts. Results may vary for others..

[bradfordkay]

"Air search radar on Allied subs seems to be totally useless. It does not seem to have any effect on the Japanese capacity to find and bomb my subs."


I'm not so sure about that. My subs do not seem to take very many hits from air ASW. Certainly not nearly as many as my own air ASW appears to get.

However, I have run no tests - my observations are from long term PBEM play so they could be completely off-base.

[witpqs]

I'm pretty sure that subs' air search radar does work to reduce sub casualties. I think - but can't swear - that aircraft radar does help find subs.

The issue of air ASW is possibly an open problem. In a PBM a 2-3 years ago I realized that when IJ pilots get ASW experience in or above the 70 range, they start performing as if they have modern homing torpedoes. AFAIK there was nothing done to change that. I didn't train my Allied pilots to that level, but I imagine with the Allies better equipment (aircraft radar, etc.) that the results would be even more devastating.

[PaxMondo]

There are two kinds of aircraft radar, normal (or surface search) and air search.  The normal definitely helps with surface TF detection.  I think, or at least my unstatistical testing has led me to beleive that it helps.  MAD is a form of radar ... or at least that is how the game treats based upon data base inspection.

[Speedysteve]

Being a self confessed sub 'lover', I can't prove anything, but I'm fairly sure my sub based Air radar does help in preventing the number of hits sustained by air ASW. The challenge is working out which of the factors are at play here, Japan ASW skills, Radar (plane and sub based) experience, upgrade in sub AA etc etc

[dr.hal]

It seems logical that surface search on a sub helps them locate and attack a surface target. I strongly believe (but can't prove as usual) that the 1 hex reaction for a sub really only comes into play if they have surface radar as I've NEVER had a sub react without out it.... it seems like a pretty useless feature (the one hex reaction range) for a sub without radar. Hal

[topeverest]

I have not tested either, but I have found air based radars to be marginally effective, but I may not be using them correctly. Assuming these were designed correctly, I think the player has to know how to use these airframes. It is clear that Wellington GRVIII is a night seacher for subs and ships...

here is some reference.

Night fighter radar obviously worked well
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref ... index.html

Wellington GRVIII - searchlight technology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_light


Wellington GIX - air to surface radar
http://website.lineone.net/~norman.groom/ASVMKII.htm

Wellington reference further
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Wellington


I think the key here is that the player has to understand a proper tactical context to each of these airframes. Now that I understand a bit more about the context, I at least know where to lookup reference and test how to use these airframes.

Also being a sub lover for the last seven years I played versions of this game, I believe the single most important factor in air attack on subs is the spotting level. players who can setup patrol zones to minimize spotting levels will be the most sucessful from a lost boat perspective.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Being a self confessed sub 'lover', I can't prove anything, but I'm fairly sure my sub based Air radar does help in preventing the number of hits sustained by air ASW. The challenge is working out which of the factors are at play here, Japan ASW skills, Radar (plane and sub based) experience, upgrade in sub AA etc etc

Yeah the problem is just that. We all are playing different tactics vs opponents who are using a variety of tactics themselves so it is very difficult to tell. Viberpol has been nailing my Allied subs with air attacks since day one. But I really do not see any changes in his success rate from 1943 through 45. However it is impossible to tell because he obviously has trained a lot of pilots in ASW skills. It just could be that his pilots are getting better as my radar improves.

The worse thing is that radar in the game does not accurately reflect US sub tactics. Allied subs in areas of heavy air patrol usually lay below the surface during the day and surfaced to attack Japanese shipping on the surface at night when advanced Allied radar gave all the advantage to the subs. But that does not really happen in the game-making the Allied sub effort nothing more than a novelty. Fun, but you won't win the war with subs.

[bradfordkay]

They aren't winning the war all by themselves, but my opponent is complaining that my subs have so devastated his tanker fleet that his industry is always in danger of crashing the economy.

Of course, he could just be blowing smoke...