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Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

 
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Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/13/2013 11:07:29 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 1553
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		821Bobo (Robert) has chosen to play Soviet in our rematch of an earlier game. Same conditions as my M60 game.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alt 41CG scenario
Server game
Locked HQ Support
Non Random Weather

House Rules
No Para drops to break pockets at anytime in the game. No Para missions at all by the Soviets until the first
Blizzard.
No bombing of air bases more than 3 times a turn (after turn 1).
No bombing of HQ's unless stacked with a ground unit

Additional Auto VC (in place to prevent ludicrous runaways) If the Axis player holds
Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh and Rostov concurrently at the end of 1941 he wins
an Auto Victory.

If the Soviet player holds Pskov, Smolensk, Bryansk,
Kharkov and Stalino concurrently at anytime in 1942 he wins an Auto Victory.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------
Post #: 1
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/14/2013 11:08:24 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Should be a good game.

Bobo took heavy loses in 1941 summer, but managed one of the best blizzard offensives. Only one better was TDV.

I only lost 10 German divisions, but the real killer was he dropped the over all infantry morale allot and forsed me to recall all of my reserves to front to save another 30+ units from surrender.

I was able to have an average 42 summer.

Bobo's use of reserve mode is by far the best of any SHC player also. What looks like an easy win in 1941 summer generally is not forsing me to use much stronger formations per battle in center.

You can also expect the M60 strength counter attacks vs any German mech or panzer unit.

Should be a good match if Bobo is able to stabilize lines for a single turn between 3-5.

Good Luck and have fun.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 2
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 3:13:00 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 1553
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		End Axis T1 (22nd June 1941) Clear

Here is my latest opening. Some pockets are very loose, and may well get broken. But there is a good reason for this. Why use all your powder when you don’t need too? I have 2 Panzer XX lurking somewhere on this map that will only move up to the line on T2. On T3 they will have 120% gas because they will only be paying 1mp (2% fuel) per hex (for clear) to advance on T2 instead of 2mp (4% fuel) per hex on T1. So by sacrificing a perfectly solid opening I will have 2 fully fuelled and fresh Pz XX for a T3 assault somewhere.

Pelton and Flavius call it gamey or an exploit. I just call it efficiency of force and resources.





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Post #: 3
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 3:27:02 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5751
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Aww, c'mon. The entire first turn is a fantasy at this point, MT. Not just for you but everybody. Your brand of craziness comes later.



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Post #: 4
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 3:50:14 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 1553
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		The example has nothing to do with the arguement about whether the game or T1 is fantasy or not. If you simply extrapolate the essence of the idea across several turns you can see how some of your units will always have a little extra gas. It is one of the methods I use to save fuel since muling and unlimited range from a railhead air supply got neurfed. To be honest I don't know why you bother with the game anymore Flavius since you despise it so much.

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Post #: 5
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 4:52:46 AM   
Seminole


Posts: 491
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

Pelton and Flavius call it gamey or an exploit. I just call it efficiency of force and resources.


"Logistics is the ball and chain of armored warfare." - Heinz Guderian

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 6
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 9:06:42 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1140
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Here is my latest opening. Some pockets are very loose, and may well get broken. But there is a good reason for this. Why use all your powder when you don’t need too? I have 2 Panzer XX lurking somewhere on this map that will only move up to the line on T2. On T3 they will have 120% gas because they will only be paying 1mp (2% fuel) per hex (for clear) to advance on T2 instead of 2mp (4% fuel) per hex on T1. So by sacrificing a perfectly solid opening I will have 2 fully fuelled and fresh Pz XX for a T3 assault somewhere.

Pelton and Flavius call it gamey or an exploit. I just call it efficiency of force and resources.


I think it is perfectly legit, and a good idea. In principle the Germans could also have planned a more staggered advance with eyes on upcoming fuel and supply shortages, assuming they also had had hindsight we have, or if they just had acted more wisely. You can't compare that in any way to the Lvov can opener, that part that the defending side watches units sliding by idle is purely an artifact of I-go-U-go. If you were to make this a better simulation, this would be one spot where an approximation in the model was made that causes qualitative errors. Being fuel-efficient is merely being a good at logistics and planning -- just as Seminole's citation says.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 7
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 9:31:40 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5751
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		MT, quite simply, there is nothing you can say or do to convince me that what you are doing is historically plausible. I am not accusing you of cheating. You simply have optimized the game to the nth degree and taken advantage of the design given you. But the results are pretty over the top. This, as I have said elsewhere, is a failure of game design. I merely hope that future iterations of the game take a more realistic approach towards combat and logistics.

It's not personal, man. Just business.





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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 10:00:24 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 1553
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Flavius, I am gamer first and foremost. This is a good game, easily the best PC game I have played. I really doubt you are ever going to see the 'perfect simulation', which I think is what you want. Even ASL, the most popular tactical board wargame in history is not a perfect simulation and it has its warts and unrealistic aspects. WITE is no different. I accept it for what it is, so I play it. WITE can, and will be improved upon in the next version, meanwhile I will enjoy this version.

Also I am not trying to convice anyone what is historically plausible. This is a game. Considering its design constraints (time, map scale and units scale) I think it does pretty well. I am merely trying to explain one aspect of my logistical system.



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Post #: 9
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 3:51:33 PM   
vandev

 

Posts: 131
Joined: 9/14/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you MT. You have shown me a new tip on how to handle panzers. Let one panzer convert a hex and the next turn the other panzer will save gas by being able to go over the same hex at a lower cost thereby extending its range in the following turn. I assume the lagging panzer will also benefit froom more gas as it will be closer to a railhead. I will keep this in mind to maximize damage on turn 3 and 4 and 5. Thanks.

vandev

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Post #: 10
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 4:07:18 PM   
rrbill


Posts: 255
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		Yep, its a game and using its rules well is what should be done. Challenge the developers and keep them sharp.

Historical reality? Need some private rules at this time to ensure that could be realized. So what would they be?

For me, the worst solution is to use hidden switches that force historical balanced outcomes. Historical balance should be had from the algorithms w/o forcing results. German logistics & equipment failed in Winter '41 but got better. Soviet organization & doctrine were poor at first but got better. There are real effects due to surprise and surprise wasn't isolated to '41. Etc! All this could be modelled and made managable, but would be very challenging for developers.

Would it ever be correct to put Joe & Adolph on the sidelines? There is a time to ask just what is being modelled or allowed.




(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 11
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 4:07:20 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2018
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		Although I agree with your fuel theory that central pocket is way to loose for my taste. Of all the pockets that can cause a headache the center one can lead to the most delays if it gets back into supply.

(in reply to vandev)
Post #: 12
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 8:25:49 PM   
Shupov


Posts: 187
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vandev

Thank you MT. You have shown me a new tip on how to handle panzers. Let one panzer convert a hex and the next turn the other panzer will save gas by being able to go over the same hex at a lower cost thereby extending its range in the following turn. I assume the lagging panzer will also benefit froom more gas as it will be closer to a railhead. I will keep this in mind to maximize damage on turn 3 and 4 and 5. Thanks.

vandev


The same applies to the Soviets during the first blizzard. Don't move everyone forward where resistance is light. Hold back units until the hexes flip the next turn then move them forward at lower MP cost. This will help conserve fuel, supplies and trucks.

< Message edited by Shupov -- 3/16/2013 8:35:25 PM >

_____________________________

Two broken Tigers on fire in the night,
Flicker their souls to the wind...

Al Stewart, "Roads to Moscow"

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Post #: 13
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 10:20:14 PM   
HITMAN202


Posts: 456
Joined: 11/10/2011
Status: offline 		To be "efficient" with Pz moves in AGN fails to accomplish the two major early objectives of AGN (IMO)....1) to get the infantry across the Daugava ASAP onto Pskov (and attack it on turn 4) and 2) have the Pz's (one corp from AGC also) breech the Velikaya on turn 3 to keep an organized D from forming.

MT looking at your AGN T1, your infantry in the center of the AGN have a clear path to the Daugava (which is crucial), but have not been pushed forward quickly enough. Also XXII Corp should be committed north because of the paucity of infantry in AGN (IMO) and any later reinforcements get to AGC's battleground far quicker than to AGN's.

But my biggest beef is you have no corridor to the Daugava cleared for the infantry near Kaunas. 8-9 infantry are loitering there. They have serious business north to attend to !!!

One Corp AGC Pz's is used to open and (imp) secure this pathway and isolate the strong inf div north of Vilnius to boot.

When I start my AAR against THEPRO's, I'll show you what I did. It went very, very well. It surprised the dudes (IMO) and they sent a ton of reinforcements there


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Post #: 14
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 10:54:44 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 1553
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		All pockets held bar the one south of Rovno.

My priority for turn one has changed somewhat lately. I am trying to minmize the number of units the Soviets have on T2 and T3. If you attack everything on T1 and rout them many rally and escape to fight you again later. Now I try to trap as many as I can by herding. Ultimately this means less are in front of me on T2 and T3, but yes it also means I have to leave more INF behind to deal with them. I accept that.

There was a slight hiccup in AGN on T1. The Port of Liepaja had a very tough Soviet ID there. It held against a hasty, a deliberate, a hasty with 2 ID and finally circumed to a final deliberate from a 3rd ID. So that one ID left 3 of my ID tied up. Just one of those unexpected things that sometimes screw you on T1. So there are 2 German ID used up that would normally be heading east at full speed.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

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Post #: 15
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/16/2013 11:04:02 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 491
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

Although I agree with your fuel theory that central pocket is way to loose for my taste.


I don't really see where it can be broken. The 55th Rifle Div in Slutsk (south of Minsk) has maybe 50% supplies, and definitely won't have the MP to make a move through frictional ZOC to open the pocket. Elsewhere the bands are too deep to penetrate. I think he is on solid ground.

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/17/2013 1:55:30 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

All pockets held bar the one south of Rovno.

My priority for turn one has changed somewhat lately. I am trying to minmize the number of units the Soviets have on T2 and T3. If you attack everything on T1 and rout them many rally and escape to fight you again later. Now I try to trap as many as I can by herding. Ultimately this means less are in front of me on T2 and T3, but yes it also means I have to leave more INF behind to deal with them. I accept that.

There was a slight hiccup in AGN on T1. The Port of Liepaja had a very tough Soviet ID there. It held against a hasty, a deliberate, a hasty with 2 ID and finally circumed to a final deliberate from a 3rd ID. So that one ID left 3 of my ID tied up. Just one of those unexpected things that sometimes screw you on T1. So there are 2 German ID used up that would normally be heading east at full speed.


I lov you man, but I just don't think you have played anyone that is very good at SHC. Other then possibly Tarrhunas.

You need to play Flaviusx/Katza/Hoooper or Bomazz. I know I am missing a few, sorry

Possibly Bobo has the skills as he has played both sides and is now good at both.

I don't really care who wins, but it be nice to see you get to late 42 knowing you will not win out and have to struggle to get a minor win or draw.

Your missing a very rewarding part of the game few have mastered or even gotten to as GHC.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/17/2013 1:57:04 AM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 17
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/17/2013 3:06:53 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5751
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Eh, don't volunteer me, Pelton. I flatly refuse to play MT under the game conditions he uses. The lack of random weather for me is a show stopper, and the more I see MT play, the more I am convinced that he is nearly impossible to beat in 1941 without divine climactic intervention. He won't play anybody who won't accept these. Therefore no such game will ever occur.

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/17/2013 3:31:18 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Eh, don't volunteer me, Pelton. I flatly refuse to play MT under the game conditions he uses. The lack of random weather for me is a show stopper, and the more I see MT play, the more I am convinced that he is nearly impossible to beat in 1941 without divine climactic intervention. He won't play anybody who won't accept these. Therefore no such game will ever occur.


You had no problem stopping me when HQ build-ups and muling were possible.

I think you have a more then 50/50 chance.




_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 19
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/17/2013 3:45:57 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

To be "efficient" with Pz moves in AGN fails to accomplish the two major early objectives of AGN (IMO)....1) to get the infantry across the Daugava ASAP onto Pskov (and attack it on turn 4) and 2) have the Pz's (one corp from AGC also) breech the Velikaya on turn 3 to keep an organized D from forming.

MT looking at your AGN T1, your infantry in the center of the AGN have a clear path to the Daugava (which is crucial), but have not been pushed forward quickly enough. Also XXII Corp should be committed north because of the paucity of infantry in AGN (IMO) and any later reinforcements get to AGC's battleground far quicker than to AGN's.

But my biggest beef is you have no corridor to the Daugava cleared for the infantry near Kaunas. 8-9 infantry are loitering there. They have serious business north to attend to !!!

One Corp AGC Pz's is used to open and (imp) secure this pathway and isolate the strong inf div north of Vilnius to boot.

When I start my AAR against THEPRO's, I'll show you what I did. It went very, very well. It surprised the dudes (IMO) and they sent a ton of reinforcements there



MT is gambling on his Mot units will be enough, if Bobo can keep turns 3-5 under control then MT is in trouble getting the train moving agian in time. Same issue I had vs Flaviusx. It will get moving, but how long will it cost him?

If Bobo is doing the North to South strategy then he has to counter MT's split strategy. MT's strategy is to split the North south which unbalances the strategy. If the SHC is doing the standard defence they are screwed anyways game set match.

If Bobo plays this game the way he played ours he will be in position to counter this. Its the best strategy as SHC, defend Leningrad to Oka, give up 30ish arm pts west of rivers, checker board in south and move 20 units to north of Oka.

MT has taken his game plan into turns 3-5, where as most guys are about turns 1-3. MT has more options as he is able to see what SHC is using for defences and where. He is much stronger then normal turns 3-5. GHC tank loses more tanks to movement then fighting early in game.

I like how hes doing stuff, I am guessing hes playing around with refit allot also with panzers.

The one weak area I see is infantry morale is not going to be very high, because of a lack of fighting.

But MT has always been about wiping out SHC before November. He basing everything on crippling SHC before blizzard.

Its working why change?


_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to HITMAN202)
Post #: 20
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/17/2013 4:52:32 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5751
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Pelton, MT is on a whole different level. Also, he spreads out his panzers more and is more unpredictable. You went all in on the south in that game and that made things a lot simpler for me.

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Post #: 21
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/17/2013 9:50:37 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, MT is on a whole different level. Also, he spreads out his panzers more and is more unpredictable. You went all in on the south in that game and that made things a lot simpler for me.


3 divisions from center to south is not all south.

It was standard opening I have always used and never changed.

I went hard for Leningrad and you stopped that more to west then MT.

Mt's MO has never changed, its about the center and always has been. He basicly chops of the head, the south and north are side shows.

1. Good opening in south.
2. Pockets in center.
3. Pockets east of marshes.
4. Leningrad falls
5. Doom and dispair as Moscow falls.

I don't see much of a change in any of his games, same as mine.

My games I push in North and South, the center comes last if I have time.

MT pushes in center first, then south.

We both as everyone does put pressure on all 3, but the key push is basicly the same every single game.

If someone would simply read the AAR's and take away the center first as SHC, MT would be off his game. Don't think anyone has even tried yet. They keep tring to defend south and get bagged in the same way every game game after game.

I really don't see you being so ignorent.


< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/17/2013 9:57:01 PM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 22
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/19/2013 11:13:43 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 1553
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		End Axis T3 (3rd July 1941) Clear.

Lots of action right across the front this turn. Robert is not a runner it would seem, he is standing toe to toe with the Wehrmacht.

In the North and Centre a pocket is formed around Vitebsk. PzGp’s 2 &3 swing thru from the south and PzGp 4 is diverted from Pskov to form the northern pincer. The pocket could not be sealed properly in the north so it will get broken. But the Reds are trapped.

On T2 in the South a pocket was formed (Orange area) but the Soviets attacked and broke it at two points, temporarily isolating some Panzers. But on the Axis T3 fresh reserves have arrived and restored the natural order of things by surrounding even more Soviets. The pocket around Zhitomer will be broken but the one around Vinnista might hold. Regardless the Reds are trapped.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

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Post #: 23
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/22/2013 12:09:28 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 1553
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I am about half way thru my T4 but last turn Robert emailed me and suggested I should consider using Random Weather in future. Here is why I won't.

The best chance the Axis player has to put himself in to a winning position is to put as much damage on the Soviets in the summer of 1941 as he can. There is also the blizzard to consider. The best defence against the blizzard is to destroy as many Soviet units as possible prior to the blizzard. These points along with the fact that the game is in favour of the Soviets anyhow makes German play with Random Weather a non option IMO.

IMO Random Weather hands the Soviets a victory in a CG between two evenly matched players. There are two primary reasons for this that are directly related.

Firstly its simply the fact that mud can strike at any time in any weather zone and it goes without saying that mud conditions put the brakes on any offensive. Mud is simply too great a change from clear conditions. Its too black and white. So the Axis will lose a number of opportunities to inflict loss on the Soviets for any period of mud.

The second reason is by far the worse of the two cited but it also feeds in to the first reason. If the German player knows he has clear weather he can take more risks with his Mech Units as he can be confident that if his units get cut off he can rescue them. But if mud is a possibility the risk is that if his units get cut off they will most likely be eliminated. This is because the mud condition will make any kind of rescue mission unlikely to succeed. And due to the isolation rules his trapped units would most likely get eliminated in the Soviet turn. This places a psychological constraint on Axis play in summer 1941 that just serves to make it even harder to inflict serious damage on the Soviets.

This is why I simply refuse to play with Random Weather in WITE. IMHO it pushes the balance of the game too far in favour of the Soviets. Other people will disagree. Which is fine.

I am not against the idea of random weather perse as I use it in all of my board games. But the way it works in WITE in conjunction with the isolation rules make 1941 a very different game if Random Weather is on as opposed to not on. It just favours the Soviets too much for me. As such I refuse to use it when German. And when Soviet I let the German player make the choice. If the German player has a long term defensive strategy then maybe Random Weather is the way to go. But for me Barbarossa was all about trying for a knockout blow and Non Random suits this purpose best.

I think a fix would be to adjust the isolation rules for German units in 1941 ( maybe just half their CV or some such) so that getting stuck behind enemy lines in 1941 is not a death sentence if mud rolls along. It's a different matter for the Soviets as they surrendered in their droves in 1941. Another possibility would be introducing another condition (e.g. light mud) that would replace mud in normally clear months that is not so debilitating.

People will say they prefer the unpredictable nature of random weather which is fine. I actually agree. But consider once a mud condition occurs in a zone during summer the remaining summer turns in that zone are all predictable. They will be clear. The nature of Random Weather in WITE is just too much of a lever that can get pulled and really favour one side over the other. And considering the vast amount of time we put in to the game it seems silly to me that on the cast of one die a players fate can be sealed.

Anyway just my two cents. People will disagree, but I simply put this forward to explain why I will not use random weather as the German player in WITE current state.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 24
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/22/2013 2:06:58 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		The weather very heavly favors SHC with or without non random weather simply because they go 2nd. Later in war they can plan river crossings around mud ect.

Its a huge advantage late in war for SHC on or off.

I am playing Huge in my only random weather game and its just plain retarded to play random weather as GHC.

Looks like I will still get a draw. Probably should have been over in 41, but because of the weather the game will drag on until 2014 most likely or Huge agrees to a draw.

There is allot to the game in 1941, but 3x more to learn from 42-45. Amazing complex game that keeps on giving for sure.

I am guessing by looking at 2by3 weather vid that weather will be more complex also with witw and wite 2.

MT has a point that I agree with 100% in 1941 and into 42-45.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 25
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/22/2013 3:07:12 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2018
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		I have 2 games ongoing now with random weather one as Axis and one as Soviet. I find it makes the game more interesting in general.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 26
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/22/2013 1:21:48 PM   
janh

 

Posts: 1140
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline 		I think that's fine Michael. If you play for winning, and play the offensive side, you can plan a lot better if your weather forecasts are "sort of perfect". Like you said, you can take risks if you know the mud turns under circumstances, in which without perfect weather knowledge you would have to behave much more conservative and more realistic. Some people play for a realistic experience, some for winning, which are both good motivations.

Hopefully the new weather model with WitW will introduce more "shades" of mud, winter etc. and also modify the isolation mechanics so that units can hold their own for longer. That would limit the effects of a single mud turn, and make random weather less of a deal breaker -- which it can be for both sides. Even for the Russian side in 41 mud can come at the wrong moments, but you are right in that the Germans are pretty much always on the bright side during that phase so it it hurts them more. But also delayed fort building due to mud, or reduced movement for the Red ants that have extremely poor mobility already, is a major disadvantage. Just that the Russians are so weak, that even without mud it seem not that much better. On the balance side, random hurts the Soviets later. So perhaps dislike of like come with aiming for the short or long games anyway.

< Message edited by janh -- 3/22/2013 1:23:04 PM >

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 27
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/22/2013 1:52:44 PM   
gingerbread


Posts: 1167
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Lund, Sweden
Status: offline 		In general, the player moving first in a turn does benefit from random weather since he knows what weather his opponent will have while the player moving second does not. Having uninterrupted clear is of course good when on the offensive.

If the active concept is that this is a game and nothing but, I see no reason for the Soviet player to accept any HR about para drops, in order to be able to penalize 'ludicrous' panzer raids.

And why is 'ludicrous runaways' applicable if it's a game and nothing but???

That said, I noticed you have developed a way to repair 3 times 6 rail hexes in the Baltic RZ (well done!) - is the next batch limited to 4 hexes due to the one hex (#3) outside Baltic or can #5 & #6 be repaired if they are in?

< Message edited by gingerbread -- 3/22/2013 1:57:17 PM >

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 28
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/22/2013 2:44:48 PM   
rrbill


Posts: 255
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		Well done, Michael, and well explained. Helps us beginners play better, thanks.

Future weather play shown in 2x3 clip is intriguing.

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 29
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo) - 3/22/2013 2:58:37 PM   
rrbill


Posts: 255
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		Historical reality is greatly desireable but should not be forced by "hard coded" conditions in the game's software (IMO.)

Negotiated house rules should help, but these are for opponents to determine. (BTW, could have a thread by those who know discussing these possibilities.)

In the end, its a game and its play is most rewarding (IMO) when outcomes are understandable through analysis.

(in reply to rrbill)
Post #: 30
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