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RE: 88 mm Bugged still or again?

 
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RE: 88 mm Bugged still or again? - 3/13/2013 8:49:39 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

To be perectly clear. Pelton is claiming that 88AA Flak Regiments that are City AA Defence units should when assigned to front line combat units be capable of shooting up tons of enemy armour when used as offensive AT units.

I strongly disagree. The game seems to be working ok in this regard. That is these City AA units when attached to combat units don't do much at all.

What I accept is that Army or Luftwaffe 88 Flak units trained as Front line troops in an AA/AT role were deadly AT units when used defensively. And sometimes in an offensive AT role under favourable circumstances. If the game does not model this then it should be looked at.

So a simple test. Have a German XX attacked with a City AA unit attached and note the results. Do identical attack with a combat 88 Flak unit attached. Do ten times or so. Compare. Show the data and base your complaint on those results if warranted.



Interesting test case but the OP claims his 88 was killed by an enemy medium machine gun, (infantry unit) without firing a shot in it's own defense.

This was a flak unit attached to an infantry division in open terrain.

Does indicate at least a potential problem. It's easy to see how a conclusion against WAD could be reached.




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"Games lubricate the body and the mind" Ben Franklin.

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Post #: 31
RE: 88 mm Bugged still or again? - 3/13/2013 9:09:22 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Interesting test case but the OP claims his 88 was killed by an enemy medium machine gun, (infantry unit) without firing a shot in it's own defense.


Maybe the truck pulling it took a wrong turn like the 507th Maintenance Company

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 32
RE: 88 mm Bugged still or again? - 3/13/2013 9:09:33 PM   
Joel Billings


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Any one battle is not indicative of the whole. If someone has a save where they have large numbers of flak elements involved and they run the same attack multiple times (at least 3, 5 is better) and they get what they think is a bad result, please email it to 2by3@2by3games.com. Tell us exactly what attack to make after loading the save, and what the results were in your test runs. I suggest that the flak be tested in the defense and in the attack (2 saves) as I'd expect a big difference. If you do that, we can take a look to see if something is clearly wrong.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
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(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 33
RE: 88 mm Bugged still or again? - 3/14/2013 10:42:24 AM   
Pelton

 

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Sounds good. I send them over this weekend.

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15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


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(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 34
RE: 88 mm Bugged still or again? - 3/15/2013 4:10:31 AM   
Pelton

 

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Just did another battle on lvl 7

88's got fired at 42 times, 22 at close range from machine guns, atr's and squads. 88's fired back 0 times.

96 88's fired zero times.

Just sad. I sent the battle in did it several times, I simply do not see them firing at all.

Its really boring to watch a battle report over 50 mins long heheh

There has got to be an easy way to get a print out instead of spending 3 hrs watching 3 battles play out.

Yes sure the most feared gun the germans had never fired a shot? Its not WW1 where every one rushes in like MT seams to think. Germans had spotters, recon ect. Hard points were found then units moved up as in the war footage below+ 88's were used as artillery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39c0-3AEpY0



< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/15/2013 4:17:35 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 35
RE: 88 mm Bugged still or again? - 4/6/2013 6:21:55 AM   
chuckles

 

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Hi
The 88 was very reluctantly used in the AT role as it is an AA Aset. In the desert I believe none every returned to AA after being pressganged into the AT role.

However,
Question; How does a weapon as big as a barndoor get a reputation as a primo tank killer?
Answer; Rangefinder.

If you know the range, shooting at long range is virtually the same as firing point blank.
So in flat desert or steppe An 88 can pick of tanks at leasure at ranges they cannot reply from.

So
If someone is looking at this I would suggest that the range and accurracy values for this gun are far to low in the weapons tab in the equipment page of the Commanders report.
(thats a suggestion without knowing how these values are used but for example the 88 flak should have much better range and acuraccy values than the 88 tank gun)

Also

The same reasoning should be applied to all calibre German flak. As far as I can make out right down to the single 20mm gun all german flak has a rangefinder as standard kit.

The generally accepted "myth" of superior german optics is no doubt is no small part due to the availability of rangefinders in the AA units.

Im not sure of the use of rangfinders in other armies.

I did post on this previously but cant find the post now.

Best Regards Chuck.






(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 36
RE: 88 mm Bugged still or again? - 4/6/2013 11:44:22 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles

Hi
The 88 was very reluctantly used in the AT role as it is an AA Aset. In the desert I believe none every returned to AA after being pressganged into the AT role.

However,
Question; How does a weapon as big as a barndoor get a reputation as a primo tank killer?
Answer; Rangefinder.

If you know the range, shooting at long range is virtually the same as firing point blank.
So in flat desert or steppe An 88 can pick of tanks at leasure at ranges they cannot reply from.

So
If someone is looking at this I would suggest that the range and accurracy values for this gun are far to low in the weapons tab in the equipment page of the Commanders report.
(thats a suggestion without knowing how these values are used but for example the 88 flak should have much better range and acuraccy values than the 88 tank gun)

Also

The same reasoning should be applied to all calibre German flak. As far as I can make out right down to the single 20mm gun all german flak has a rangefinder as standard kit.

The generally accepted "myth" of superior german optics is no doubt is no small part due to the availability of rangefinders in the AA units.

Im not sure of the use of rangfinders in other armies.

I did post on this previously but cant find the post now.

Best Regards Chuck.








It is being looked at. The main consern is that 88's are being fired on by infantry squads, MG's and tanks and not firing back.
In many cases 30+ times and not returning fire.


< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/6/2013 11:45:02 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to chuckles)
Post #: 37
RE: 88 mm Bugged still or again? - 4/7/2013 8:52:54 AM   
chuckles

 

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Hi Pelton,
Great work you are doing in the Forum here.
I just thought that if powers that be are looking into German AA firing at ground targets they may as well get the range and accurracys correct (IMHO) at the same time.
If they do acknowledge the existence of rangefinders in the German AA units then as well as virtually garenteeing first round hit out to long range they should also be more expensive to produce.
The expense of producing the AA gun and Kit compared to the much cheaper AT versions in the same calibres is a good reason to keep them in the AA role, after all its very difficult I imagine to adapt an AT gun into AA in the field.

And of course the other Famouse Barn door tank killer is the nashorn and I havnt been able to verify this but I bet one of the crew stood up in the back with a rangefinder.

Best Regards Chuck.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 38
RE: 88 mm Bugged still or again? - 4/8/2013 12:20:32 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 20472
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
I'll have to check with Gary about this, but last I remember he said that flak elements are much less likely to fire in ground combat, and on the attack the bigger flak just isn't likely to fire. This was intended. I do remember running some tests on a save Pelton sent and found that on the defense flak would shoot, but not on the attack. I did notice though that flak could be killed by non-artillery fire even though they wouldn't shoot back. When I asked Gary about this, he was surprised that they were being attacked by things like machine-guns. I don't know if he's had a chance to take a look and try to figure out why this was happening.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to chuckles)
Post #: 39
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