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logic - 3/11/2013 12:23:06 AM   
KAHUNA

 

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I was scanning a few unfinished mining bases that were taking a long time.One was placed on a planetoid containing steel, iridium and lead and altho there was a surplus of steel the structure was not utilising it for constuction there.The base was up and running and had surplus in stock but the construction ship was awaiting a steel shipment for some of the 55 unfinished components.What is the logic of that?Anyone else notice things like this?

< Message edited by KAHUNA -- 3/11/2013 12:46:34 AM >
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RE: logic - 3/11/2013 1:50:44 AM   
tjhkkr


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I have noticed it with my monitoring/signals intercept stations.
My long range sensors will come online but there is still work to be done on the station. But that has never ever prevented it from finishing the construction.
I see it also with my starbases... they will be about 80% done and the docking bays are constructing warships. There is a part of me that can see that...

I am not sure if it is a bug or not: I am not thinking it is, but I have seen what you are talking about.

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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

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RE: logic - 3/11/2013 9:24:54 AM   
Bingeling

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KAHUNA

I was scanning a few unfinished mining bases that were taking a long time.One was placed on a planetoid containing steel, iridium and lead and altho there was a surplus of steel the structure was not utilising it for constuction there.The base was up and running and had surplus in stock but the construction ship was awaiting a steel shipment for some of the 55 unfinished components.What is the logic of that?Anyone else notice things like this?

The construction ships are lazy. They expect to be served, and some day a freighter may arrive with steel. If they went looking for resources again (or did not start construction until they had all), things would be a bit smoother.

You can convince it to look for resources itself by telling it to stop, and then to repair the base. Hopefully it will manage to pick the missing steel up from the base itself. I am not sure that construction ships make stop at mining bases, though. And if the docking bays are not yet done I am quite sure it will stand in line elsewhere.

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RE: logic - 3/11/2013 2:35:17 PM   
KAHUNA

 

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I decided to do an experiment with that unfinished mining base.2 other things that were missing to finish it were chromium and carbon fiber.I opened up the editor,clicked on the planetoid and added those to the mix.Then I waited..sure enough freighters started piling in and taking away carbon fiber and chromium from all over since I have a free trade agreement with almost all the other races but the base did not go forward with more construction.It was still sitting there with 55 unfininshed and the construction ship sitting on top of it making construction sounds.Later on I was informed that the World Destroyer Project finally finished and had sat forever on 27 unfinshed.This was started way before this particular mine so maybe now I understand what's happening.The cue for resouces goes in order and altho I had sufficent resources to finish that mining base it was filling previous cued construction projects first. How polite of them to wait their turn
I haven't finished the game yet but will keep an eye on that base to see how long it's going to take.

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RE: logic - 3/11/2013 11:08:52 PM   
feelotraveller


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A well spotted 'paradox'.  It does seem illogical but it is the outcome of the application of the games logic.

When a constructor is ordered to do a job it reserves materials for that job from the nearest spaceport.  If the spaceport is short on the materials (steel in your case) the constructor picks up what it can and then goes to the site and begins works.  Later (often much later) the other materials will be freightered in to the constructor.  This will only happen once there is that material (already reserved) available at that spaceport,  Your constructor will never pick up construction materials from a mining base only from spaceports or freighter deliveries (it can however refuel at mining stations...).  I'm pretty sure that freighters supplying constructors will 'only' come from spaceports.

If there were no other spaceports or sources of steel in your game then I would expect to see a freighter come along and collect the steel from the mining base and deliver it to your spaceport.  Then, assuming that the steel is not used by the spaceport or collected for other purposes, another freighter-job would be issued to take the steel from your spaceport to your constructor.  Then your mining base would see some construction progress...





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RE: logic - 3/12/2013 11:40:17 AM   
Bingeling

 

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Nice explanation, feelo.

It is hard to know if a freighter can transport resources from a mining base to a construction ship, but I believe I have seen freighters carrying fuel from gas mine to a mining base. That seems somewhat similar to me.

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RE: logic - 3/13/2013 12:31:29 AM   
feelotraveller


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Yes, you are right about the fuel to mining base transport, I've seen that too. 

I have never seen resources being directly transported from mine to constructor.*   Fuel gets treated a bit differently than other resources at times, for example it is the only resource I have seen reservations canceled for.  You probably have some memories of someone windbagging about fuel issues...

Anyway in the situation of the OP the reservations for the missing steel were made before the mining base became operational.  Canceling the constructors orders and ordering the repair of the unfinished mine wil trigger a new reservation for the missing materials (but fails to cancel the original reservation at its source adding to the tally of materials reserved but never to be picked up...).

* Although just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  I doubt it does though. I have had games where for some time I did not have a spaceport but had a few mines and freighters, and my constructors refused to do anything even though there were resources available in the mines. 

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RE: logic - 3/13/2013 9:34:08 AM   
Bingeling

 

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You think that canceling construction is one way to create the "stuck" reservations?

Fuel seems quite robust in reservations. Also, I am quite sure "normal" destruction of a freighter removes the reservation for that freighter. Fuel is removed all the time.

If a ship takes on "refuel" order it will reserve the same amount of fuel as its fuel capacity. If it changes its mine (that is, if you change its mind), the reservation is released. Also, the reservation is released once it has refueled. This reservation can be a bit annoying in fleet refueling. A fleet of 10 ships with 500 fuel capacity will reserve 5000 fuel. Say you want to top them up with the missing 200 each, and give the refuel order, they will head far away if the local source only got some 3000 fuel available (less than 5000). If you tell it to "refuel at..." the refueling should be OK, although you may have to give the order twice.

I see this a lot when preparing for multiple fleet war operations. The resupply ship used as meeting point does not have enough fuel for two incoming fleets (with refuel orders), but can refuel them one after each other just fine, because the ships are far from 0 fuel when they arrive. Unlike "stuck reservations" this is not a bug, though.

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RE: logic - 3/14/2013 1:01:02 AM   
feelotraveller


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Yes, I think so, on the stuck resources.  Certainly if you cancel a constuctors build order after giving it but before the constuctor loads the required materials then those materials will remain reserved (for rest of game, I suspect).  I've never actually tested the mid-construction cancelation though.

I posted about the fuel cancelations in a thread a few months ago (when we had all those resource discussions...) but I could not find it.  The problem arises when the fuel reserved by one ship is used by another.  In my experience this happens when freighters grab fuel already reserved for military ships.  The reservations for those military ships are then canceled when the military ship is on approach to the refueling point and it returns to no orders (with no notification it might be added).

[A common example I encounter - I establish a new colony and have a couple of ships guarding it for arrival of the colony ship.  Shortly afterwards I send out a couple of system defence frigates to free up my longer ranged colonisation fleet.  I send out the SD frigates to the new colony with a refuel at colony order (since they have minimal fuel tanks and I want them ready if needed).  So the reservation is made for, say, 2x180 caslon.  Now its a new colony with 2000 fuel, take away 1000 some silly freighter wants to ship back to my home system (which already has 2 gas mining stations cranking it out...) and take away maybe 500 to refuel the colonisation fleet.  So things are getting a bit tight, say 500 caslon left with 360 reserved for my incoming frigates.  Okay this sets the scene...

What happens next is that a couple of freighters arrive for tranport missions either delivering for a rudimentary spaceport build job or carting away resources (fuel or otherwise).  Now they fill their tanks.  The first one, for arguments sake, takes 250.  Yep, it does that even though there is only 140 unreserved fuel.  So now there is 250 caslon and 360 reserved!  Except there won't be as one of the two frigates will on arrival cancel its reservation (automatically, unnotified).  If another freighter comes along and takes 100 fuel (which it will do ignoring the existing reservation by the frigate) then both frigates arrive in the system approach the planet (don't quite make it to the gravity well) and cancel their orders to drift off into the system, usually pretty much out of fuel...  THAT is not a robust reservation system... 

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RE: logic - 3/14/2013 11:52:01 AM   
Bingeling

 

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That sounds like a very buggy reservation system. It should be rather simple to get "right" too, unless there is a race condition between threads. Nothing sounded very racy about your example, though.

If resources were more in demand than they are, I figure it would pay off to scrap and rebuild the "old" mining bases after a while, simply due to their stores being full of reserved goods.

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RE: logic - 3/14/2013 11:54:51 AM   
Bingeling

 

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Also, feelo, some old discussions are in:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3178831

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3181004

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RE: logic - 3/14/2013 4:06:36 PM   
KAHUNA

 

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It's getting later in the game now and that base still is unfinished[55 unfinished]I'm tippytop dog in the game with 148 planets and multiple sources of all the vital resources at my disposal.I've 24 fleets with 24 ships apiece with lots of extras sitting idle.I've free trade agreements with everyone so the money is rolling in.As the universe plods along I see my resources start to drop[hydrogen and caslon[ despite no wars involving myself]. I think the other empires are buying me out so there's not much left for me to utilise to finish the numerous building projects I've got lined up.I'm going to continue this altho the part of the game where I kill off the shakturis was over a long time ago and all I'm getting now is the occasional pirates to kill and the potshot taking of my ships by the other jealous members out there.I've already had to sack the Ackdarians for that and now they want to be pals again.God Bless em..

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