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Is Nagumo defective?

 
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Is Nagumo defective? - 3/10/2013 11:49:02 PM   
Zigurat666


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Scenario 2
This is about the 5th time this has happened...
KB encounters a major force and has opportunity to score some points but...


Good weather both locations
Rested PLanes
Good Leader Nagumo (Or at least he's supposed to be}

And KB sends out

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Sinabang at 42,77

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 66 <--------- way over done
D4Y1 Judy x 9 <--------- way under-done

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 3 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Corregidor, Bomb hits 2, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VC(F)-41 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 12 on standby, 7 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes


WTF????? Where are the other 100 Judys and 100 Jills?????????????????????? There are at least 10 ships in that group and excluding FoW 3 CV or CVE and a variety of APA.

Game is severly rigged. This has happened on every major encounter.

< Message edited by Zigurat666 -- 3/10/2013 11:50:28 PM >
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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/10/2013 11:58:26 PM   
Terminus


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Yes, yes... It's so very rigged against you...

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 12:01:14 AM   
Zigurat666


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glad you agree since theres no other excuse....oh I guess "Bad Rolls" and "FoW" which seem to dominate the game....I have another term for it....RIGGED

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 12:39:16 AM   
AW1Steve


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Wouldn't you really be happier playing a nice game of Monopoly?

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 12:44:56 AM   
dr.hal


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Oh my, and here I thought I was just good at this game... delusions of grandeur! So sad.

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 12:52:44 AM   
pws1225

 

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It's not rigged. It's borked!

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 3:52:16 AM   
Lokasenna


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Looks about right for Nagumo to me - Yamaguchi or bust!

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 6:06:22 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666

Scenario 2
This is about the 5th time this has happened...
KB encounters a major force and has opportunity to score some points but...




Allied Ships
CVE Corregidor, Bomb hits 2, on fire




This means this in the only ship you saw, which means that you did not have a very good detection level. Your commander thought there was only one measly CVE out there so he sent a small force to dispatch it. Simple as that. If other ships were known to your admiral they would have shown up in the report and you likely would have had a much larger strike.

The reasons for this? It could be anything. Rain, clouds, bad luck or not enough aircraft on search duties. Raise the detection levels and a bigger attack will go in. It is not borked. You are just very unlucky or using poor tactics. I am leaning towards the later. If I do not have a lot of land based search in the area then I set 20% of my carrier attack aircraft to the search mode. It sounds like a lot but if you don't spot the enemy you are screwed anyways.


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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 9:12:52 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
This means this in the only ship you saw, which means that you did not have a very good detection level. Your commander thought there was only one measly CVE out there so he sent a small force to dispatch it.


Agree that this is probably the issue here. Many years ago there used to be no strike size governor built into the game engine and a single ship could see an entire carrier force go after it. Players used to set out single AK's in open ocean with do not retire orders as pickets to try and attract these huge strikes. So they intentionally changed the code in the game so now it limits the size of strikes that go after small targets, so up your detection level and your admirals will know to send more planes.

Personally I never count on land based search for carrier ops, I always keep 20% of at least one strike group per carrier on search. It simply costs too much if you get caught flat footed due to bad search rolls. If you try and game the system by trying to squeeze in every possible strike plane, the small benefits a few extra attack rolls can achieve simply don't outweigh the costs if things go badly due to your failing to locate all possible targets.

Jim


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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 9:51:23 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666

Scenario 2
This is about the 5th time this has happened...
KB encounters a major force and has opportunity to score some points but...




Allied Ships
CVE Corregidor, Bomb hits 2, on fire




This means this in the only ship you saw, which means that you did not have a very good detection level. Your commander thought there was only one measly CVE out there so he sent a small force to dispatch it. Simple as that. If other ships were known to your admiral they would have shown up in the report and you likely would have had a much larger strike.

The reasons for this? It could be anything. Rain, clouds, bad luck or not enough aircraft on search duties. Raise the detection levels and a bigger attack will go in. It is not borked. You are just very unlucky or using poor tactics. I am leaning towards the later. If I do not have a lot of land based search in the area then I set 20% of my carrier attack aircraft to the search mode. It sounds like a lot but if you don't spot the enemy you are screwed anyways.




nope, this only means that this was the only ship attacked, it got nothing to do with the detection level of the task force. You can have a task force with detection level 10 and still only see one ship being attacked, just take a BB and four DD and 50 bombers, the TF might have 10 dl and only the BB will be targetted as it is the only major target. You still won't see the DD showing up in the combat report as they weren't attacked.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/11/2013 9:52:47 AM >


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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 1:12:31 PM   
LoBaron


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< Message edited by LoBaron -- 3/11/2013 1:14:09 PM >


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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 1:53:33 PM   
Zigurat666


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I dont believe this to be the case. I have search planes from 4 sources which all spotted the TF (both this turn and last 2)
By the way...just a quick question.... How would you know my playing ability if you have never played me before? Just wondering about an opinion based solely on nothing? I'm just looking for some honest opinions.Please refrain from childish personal attacks like so many others on this board do.




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< Message edited by Zigurat666 -- 3/11/2013 2:24:53 PM >

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 3:25:23 PM   
Lokasenna


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Did you notice any "Xx D4Y1 Judy failed to link up with strike" messages, or whatever it says? Or how about "Unable to find target due to range or weather"? Just curious.

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 3:31:37 PM   
Canoerebel


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I've played AE (and its predecessors) long enough to see every kind of carrier strike imaginable.  Huge and successful Japanese attacks (too many of those, to be honest).  The same by the Allies.  Terribly unsuccesful attacks.  Small attacks.  Large attacks.  Lopsided attacks with too many escorts or not nearly enough.  Just about anything is possible.

But I'm curious.  Just who do you think the game is rigged for or against?  In favor of the Allies?  Against Japan?  Against Nagumo in particular?

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 3:50:16 PM   
ny59giants


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Leaders are very important. Have you considered all these factors listed below??

Air Combat TF
• Air Skill - The TF Commander functions as an Air HQ for the airgroups. This will influence how many strike aircraft will fly.
• Aggression - Influences how likely the TF is to react and move toward an enemy. High aggression can result in your carrier group running into a fight. Be careful in this selection.
• Surface Skill - To save your hind quarters (and I am not talking Russian Helicopters), if you are unfortunate enough to get in a surface engagement.
• No other skills or qualities have any influence.

Selecting leaders for air groups is a fairly complex task. Most aircraft can perform multiple roles, so leader selection criteria must include consideration of how the air group will be employed.
• Pilot experience affects operational losses.
• Air groups with morale < 50 must pass a morale test before flying an offensive mission. If the test is failed, no aircraft will fly.
• Air groups flying Naval Search, ASW Patrol, or CAP must pass two morale tests before flying. Each morale test failed reduces the number of aircraft flying by 25%.
• Level Bombers must pass three tests before flying an offensive mission. Each test failed reduces the number of aircraft flying by 25%:

o Experience test.
o Test against the leader’s Air Skill.
o Morale test.

• Pilot experience affects the chances to find the target in a strike mission.
• Pilot experience affects air-to-air combat results.
• Leader’s air skill affects results in air-to-air combat.


CAP as Principle Role
This includes Fighters, Fighter-Bombers, Night-Fighters, and Float-Fighters. Assign leader using these priorities:
• Inspiration – Influences the number of CAP aircraft that will fly. Influences air group morale recovery.
• Air Skill – Influences the air-to-air combat results.
• Leadership – Influences the air group’s experience gain.
• No other skills or qualities have any influence.

Offensive Missions as Principle Role (except Level Bombers)
Missions include Airfield Attack, Port Attack, Naval Attack, Ground Attack, Sweep, and Recon. Air Groups include includes Fighters, Fighter-Bombers, Night-Fighters, Float-Fighters, Dive Bombers, Torpedo Bombers, Float Planes, Patrol, and Recon. Assign leader using these priorities:
• Inspiration – Influences the number of strike and patrol aircraft that will fly. Influences air group morale recovery.
• Leadership – Influences the air group’s experience gain.
• Air Skill – Influences results in air-to-air combat.
• No other skills or qualities have any influence.

Ship Leaders Ship Captains
Carriers
This includes CV, CVL, and CVE. Assign leader using these priorities:
• Leadership – Influences the ship’s experience gain
• Air Skill – If the carrier captain will serve as the TF Commander, then he functions as the Air HQ for the TF aircraft. Air skill then influences the number of strike and patrol aircraft that will fly.
• Surface – Influences ship's chance of locating a target during surface combat
• No other skills or qualities have any influence.


< Message edited by ny59giants -- 3/11/2013 3:51:23 PM >


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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 4:00:49 PM   
FatR

 

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Is Aggression important at all for air group commanders? I used to select fighter commanders primarily based on their Air skill, and bomber commanders primarily based on Aggression, but I see that Air matters alot for bombers too, at least for level bombers...

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 4:01:08 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666

I dont believe this to be the case. I have search planes from 4 sources which all spotted the TF (both this turn and last 2)
By the way...just a quick question.... How would you know my playing ability if you have never played me before? Just wondering about an opinion based solely on nothing? I'm just looking for some honest opinions.Please refrain from childish personal attacks like so many others on this board do.



You'll get these responses most often when you don't supply enough information for people to help you out.

In this case you didn't list your air group settings, didn't show the position or range of the attacks, and didn't give any background as to how you got in this situation. To then follow-up with a "This game is rigged" comment and yes, you will get nailed. People here know quite a bit, and are willing to help, you just have to give them something and come objectively with an intent to learn.

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 4:15:01 PM   
ny59giants


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For air group leaders I tend to sort by Inspiration first. Then, I look for Air around 60. Higher for fighters and close to for bombers. My fighters have over 60 in Aggression and most bomber leaders between 50 and 60. I don't want my bomber leaders with over 60 as they are rated as aggressive and may go off and attack on their own. I 'may' go over 60 in Aggression for CV based bomber pilots, but that is a personal preference.

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 4:28:14 PM   
FatR

 

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As a side note, yeah, assigning Nagumo as your ACTF commander might be not the wisest choice. Recently in my Scen 2 game a main air strike from my ACTF commanded by Nagumo went against transports, and so the Allied carriers in the vicinity escaped serious harm. Did not cost me any my carriers, but might have just cost me the game, as those carriers were a force covering a surprise invasion of Marianas, and in failing to remove them I failed to give my LBA free reign.

I start to wonder if some characters in the game are coded to repeat their historical mistakes.

< Message edited by FatR -- 3/11/2013 4:29:45 PM >


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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 4:38:30 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've played AE (and its predecessors) long enough to see every kind of carrier strike imaginable.  Huge and successful Japanese attacks (too many of those, to be honest).  The same by the Allies.  Terribly unsuccesful attacks.  Small attacks.  Large attacks.  Lopsided attacks with too many escorts or not nearly enough.  Just about anything is possible.

But I'm curious.  Just who do you think the game is rigged for or against?  In favor of the Allies?  Against Japan?  Against Nagumo in particular?



same here, you can have 400 aircraft (no exageration) going after two xAKL escorted by a PB and a day later you got 20 bombers going after an enemy CVE force. Goes for both sides, never made much sense to me tbh, true since WITP.

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 4:51:05 PM   
Sardaukar


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Historically...Nagumo was arguably defective as CV TF commander.

Just to answer original topic question...

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 5:04:18 PM   
ny59giants


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Via Tracker, here is a partial list of highest Air rated leaders for Japanese CV TFs.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 5:42:25 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Historically...Nagumo was arguably defective as CV TF commander.

Just to answer original topic question...


Yes, there were rumors of consangunity in his famiry.


Well, that's what I heard.

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 6:27:46 PM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Via Tracker, here is a partial list of highest Air rated leaders for Japanese CV TFs.


I wonder if a commander's rank matters or is purely cosmetical. I've used Abe Toshio to command KB-2 for long periods of time, because he has better stats than Nagumo, but still cannot say, if he's actually better or worse, too many other variables, too few test cases.

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 7:47:36 PM   
LoBaron


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Impact of rank on the game is commander availbility depending on TF type / size (you cannot assign RADMs to an ASW TF for example), and PP cost calculation when replacing commanders.
(replacing a high ranking officer with a low ranking officer can be painfully expensive).

Except for that, no impact whatsoever.

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 9:00:08 PM   
Zigurat666


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Well good to see the responses are getting a little more civilized.First I'd like to point out that it has been suggested that if more info had been supplied that the verbal abuse may not have been started....sorry but thats a personal problem that people have hence the old saying "If you dont have anything nice to say,dont say anything at all"
Anyways back on topic. I am an advanced player in that I know all the details about planning strikes and all though appreciated responses by some members about morale,aggression,fatigue,range or anything else for that matter is is not an issue and thats why I didnt really post it. Its kind of like talking to Dell support and getting the "Did you turn it off and on" response....I,m well beyond that.

Anyhow,the title of this thread is specifically about Nagumo as I mentioned earlier that he is the only commander to do this tactic repeatedly, so I am wondering if there is some code that gives him a better (worse?) chance of botching missions,hence the rigged comment.
People are taking the "rigged" comment wayyyyy too seriously. ANyone who has a chance at such a large cash-in for free only to end up empty handed would have the same initial reaction.

So thx for the serious replys on this matter. I am taking them into consideration.

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 9:53:32 PM   
Canoerebel


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Zigurat, to be honest, I think you set the tone for this thread by using "rigged."  You got a few responses that seemed equally strong, but nothing I saw that was out of line with your post.  You might avoid such flare ups, though, by refraining from using strong terms or by making assertions that you are an "advanced player."  (I don't know you - you may well be an advanced player - but most of the time it's better to let other players sing your praises rather than singing your own.) 

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 10:25:14 PM   
Zigurat666


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Zigurat, to be honest, I think you set the tone for this thread by using "rigged."  You got a few responses that seemed equally strong, but nothing I saw that was out of line with your post.  You might avoid such flare ups, though, by refraining from using strong terms or by making assertions that you are an "advanced player."  (I don't know you - you may well be an advanced player - but most of the time it's better to let other players sing your praises rather than singing your own.) 



Such a shame Canoerebel. I used to respect your opinions. However your endorsement of poor behavior has me at a loss. You'll notice I have only 120+ posts in over 4 years,testimony to the fact that you really dont get good advice> The only way to get any respect on this board is to have played at least 5 games versus all the head-trolls on this board or to have a relative that served in the forces who single handedly forged a hand-grenade by chewing coconut husk and filled it with gunpowder from a dud BB shell on the beach.
Anyways all the psychotics will be happy to know I wont be back for a while.

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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 11:10:46 PM   
jeffk3510


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When considering how a commander's Air Skill rating and Influence come into play when the leader of a CV taskforce, Nagumo is second only to Yamaguchi for Japan as the most effective CV task force leader...

< Message edited by jeffk3510 -- 3/11/2013 11:13:18 PM >


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RE: Is Nagumo defective? - 3/11/2013 11:12:18 PM   
jeffk3510


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Zigurat, to be honest, I think you set the tone for this thread by using "rigged."  You got a few responses that seemed equally strong, but nothing I saw that was out of line with your post.  You might avoid such flare ups, though, by refraining from using strong terms or by making assertions that you are an "advanced player."  (I don't know you - you may well be an advanced player - but most of the time it's better to let other players sing your praises rather than singing your own.) 



Such a shame Canoerebel. I used to respect your opinions. However your endorsement of poor behavior has me at a loss. You'll notice I have only 120+ posts in over 4 years,testimony to the fact that you really dont get good advice> The only way to get any respect on this board is to have played at least 5 games versus all the head-trolls on this board or to have a relative that served in the forces who single handedly forged a hand-grenade by chewing coconut husk and filled it with gunpowder from a dud BB shell on the beach.
Anyways all the psychotics will be happy to know I wont be back for a while.


If you would like any help from people who do know what they're talking about, I would suggest a different approach.

< Message edited by jeffk3510 -- 3/11/2013 11:17:41 PM >


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