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RE: Recommend me operational wargame

 
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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/15/2013 1:22:54 AM   
shunwick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
Was a very very long time ago i tried it out...just got abit confused..if the scale was my thing though I'd have stuck with it definitely.


Wodin,

You might like to have a look at it again.

The PO Assist function (new with the 3.4 patch) allows a player to select a formation while leaving all the others controlled by the PO. With something like Europa 1947 (one of the monsters - roughly 2000 units per side) instead of controlling all 2000 units ,you could elect to command say the UK 7th Corps (about 7 or eight units) and leave everything else to the AI. Or you could choose to play all the French forces, or the American forces etc.

Very interesting development. Genuine role-playing while the rest of the war goes on around you. It is only available as a single player option at the moment and it is not quite yet the full deal but I have high hopes that it will be expanded upon in the next patch.

The relative quiteness of the TOAW forum is partly due to the long wait for the almost mythical 3.5 patch.

Best wishes,
Steve

< Message edited by shunwick -- 3/15/2013 1:33:52 AM >


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Post #: 31
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/15/2013 5:50:53 AM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

The PO Assist function (new with the 3.4 patch) allows a player to select a formation while leaving all the others controlled by the PO. With something like Europa 1947 (one of the monsters - roughly 2000 units per side) instead of controlling all 2000 units ,you could elect to command say the UK 7th Corps (about 7 or eight units) and leave everything else to the AI. Or you could choose to play all the French forces, or the American forces etc.

Wunderbar!


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Post #: 32
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/15/2013 5:53:08 AM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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Didn't know about the other series. So are those two different games with same name? So confusing...


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Didn't know you where talking about that series..which is very old indeed..thought you where talking about his current games. Totally forgot about the series here..which isn't what comes to mind when people mention his games these days.

Thanks for pointing him the way HappyH.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

John Tillers aren't tactical..they are operational.

Really?




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Post #: 33
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/15/2013 8:22:30 PM   
wodin


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Two different games with different names..Here it's a series at platoon called the John Tillers campaigns series..the other games are Panzer campaigns. Then you also have squad Battles at squad level..and some air war titles.

Then you have ACW and Napoleonic.

Panzer Campaigns is the biggest series most recent one was Moscow '42. Operational series at coy upto regiment scale.

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Post #: 34
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/15/2013 11:38:26 PM   
Wolfe


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If only Tiller would upgrade the UI / Graphics, particularly the UI to the quality of WitE or Decisive Campaigns or to be honest anything released in the last 5 years I'd be buying them. As they are, although as a bit of a Grog I know I shouldn't care about how pretty things look, Tiller's games are a turn off but good Grog that I am could live with this if the UI was (significantly) more user friendly. For me every "new" Tiller release is flogging a dead horse.

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Post #: 35
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/16/2013 2:44:48 AM   
General Staff

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen
Command Ops
No hexes, no sale.
It works on a square grid system, which you can turn on or off. I'm no expert- someone else may confirm this- but combat/movement works point to point within the grid system, so in that respect perhaps more accurate than a center-hex to center-hex system, and arguably an improvement at the scale it seems to work best for (platoon, company, battalion, regiment). Personally I think it's pretty neat, and I've played TOAW extensively.

TOAW IMO is best at battalion-division level.

That's 2 demos mentioned- one for each of these- you could try. Along with documentation, even YouTube tutorials. The TOAW demo is dated- like the first edition from the late 20th Century- but enough I think to give you a good flavor of the game with Korea 1951 as the included scenario. There may be other games on your short list with demos (though I don't think so).

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Post #: 36
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/16/2013 4:21:13 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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I have already bought and installed TOAW3, so we can close this discussion. Though after buying TOAW3 I noticed here at least one game overlooked earlier that I could have possibly considered: Panzer Campaigns. And why nobody mentioned Advanced Tactics Gold?

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Post #: 37
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/21/2013 7:42:36 PM   
Konrad_Novak

 

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Indeed, why haven't anyone mentioned ATG? It's a beautiful game, which has just enough historical realism to be a great operational-strategic wargame. And, as I can see, it just got updated. Well, I'll describe pros and cons of the ATG - maybe it will help other readers to decide. I will base my post on the assumption that you will play random maps, but there are a lot of user-made content out there.

PROs:
1. The heart of the ATG is its Random Map Generator. IMHO, it provides for better "historically correct experience" - when playing random maps, player always faces the same challenges that troubled military and civilian commanders - where is the enemy, what are his plans, how to counter them and how to emerge victorious?

I don't think that ANY wargame with scenarios based on historical events can present the same level of Friction and Fog of War. Even in such gems as WITE both players know what are their respective opponents' capabilities and possible operational plans. After two or three games, such historical wargames become a bit stale for my taste.

2. Ability to customize your command hierarchy. You create your forces from the scratch - you'll have to create desired amount of units, formation and staffs. Want a divisional structure? Go for it! Prefer a brigade structure - it's your call. Need something indescribably bizarre? No problem.

The staffs of all levels are not just for show. They enhance combat attributes of their subordinates and distribute supplies and reinforcements.

3. Ability to fully customize your armed forced. As I mentioned earlier, in the beginning you have nothing and can create anything. But you have to divide your production efforts between "Political Points" (to create formations and research new unit types and upgrade them), "Supplies" (to, you know, supply existing units) and production of units themselves. I won't go deeper in the production system, but there's some complexity there.

The thing that I like about "create-an-army" is that you have to walk in the shoes of Interwar era (between WWI & WWII) politicians. What army to create? Quick motorized\mechanized but small army? Large infantry army? Emphasize air power or develop some AA guns (its cheaper) and produce some tanks instead? Motorize your units or produce a lot of horses and go for a larger army instead? There are quite a few dilemmas.

4. Detailed yet simple supply system. The soldiers march on their stomachs and it's evident in ATG. You have to manage limited resources ("Raw materials" to produce any tech-based unites such as tanks and "Oil" to keep tanks running). Enemy captured your oil resources? Sorry, but now you have to divert some industrial capacity to synthesize it. Not enough raw materials? No artillery\tanks\bombers today for you.

AFAIK, the resources are distributed between players evenly, so you won't have no oil while your opponent will wallow in it.

Cons:
1. UI. ATG has a standard UI for counter-fest wargames which is clearly not enough for this masterpiece.

A. You have to create every @#$%$# unit manually. In larger maps you'll have several hundreds of units and will have to create each of them from scratch. There are no templates to facilitate uniformity.

B. You have to reinforce each and every unit manually. If your 200 units suffered minor losses during opponent's turn, you'll have to distribute reinforcements manually to each of them. It gets REALLY tedious on largest maps. Sadly, conceptually, ATG shines on the same largest maps.

C. (my personal). There is no facilitation for moving an insane amount of counters late in the game. You'll have to move each counter manually every turn of the game. Well, I have the same issue with other counter-fests, so if you're ok with thousands click per turn - disregard this subsection.

2. ATG is historically abstract. It means no tens of mods of BF109 and TIII for you. All tanks, planes, mortars etc. simply upgrade to more powerful modifications.

3. You'll have to manage production and supply. Hence, it is not strictly "operational", but an "operational-strategic" wargame. If you won't take your industrial and technological capacity into account when you're planning your offensive you will fail.

In addition, there's a Decisive Campaigns series, which uses the ATG engine, with addition of some action cards. As mentioned before, it's nothing out-of-character. For example, each turn officers receive an action card that "Increases entrenchment for a particular unit for 33%". Something like that.

I think it's actually a good representation of the role of distinguished officers in military. Every turn you'll have to prioritize - which units need your (i.e. your officers') attention, and which will be ok on their own.

P.S. And, I think, Command Ops should me mentioned once more. I remember when I first saw it and was a bit confused: "What? A real-time wargame without hexes? What heresy is this?". But after some tinkering I fell in love with the game. Try the demo out. I seriously think that Command Ops should be the future of wargames.

< Message edited by Konrad_Novak -- 3/21/2013 7:44:16 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/22/2013 10:22:06 PM   
shunwick


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Konrad,

That is a very good overview of ATG. I have the original AT, can you tell me what changed between that and ATG?

Best wishes,
Steve

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Post #: 39
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/23/2013 12:35:58 AM   
wodin


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ATG sounds like it's a perfect engine for a sci fi wargame or something like WH4OK. Historical accuracy is no longer na issue..and you cna use your imagination to your hearts content..set it in a proper hard military sci fi setting..could be a winner.

Anyway hows the OP getting on with TOAW?

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/23/2013 12:41:53 AM >


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Post #: 40
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/23/2013 5:40:34 AM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Anyway hows the OP getting on with TOAW?

Working overtime, so not much time to read manual, less actually play the damn thing...

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Post #: 41
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/23/2013 7:32:30 AM   
Konrad_Novak

 

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2Shunwick:
It's been some time since I played the game, so I may miss something in the review below :)

First and foremost, there are two resources present in the game now - "Oil" and "Raw Materials". Though they are technically infinite (you can't run out of them), you can reach maximum production per turn (i.e. upgrade all your harvesting facilities tp maximum level), thus limiting your production per turn.

It adds more depth to the game and you'll need to consider your logistics more carefully. For example, in AT I usually tried to motorize the bulk of my army but here I can't motorize everyone - the Oil stocks will run dry soon and my armored units will be dead in the water. Air units need even more oil than tanks. And Raw materials seriously limit my production of heavy equipment - arty, tanks, ships etc.

Secondly, the Random Map Generator (RMG) has been improved. You can select type of the map (no water, continent, archipelago etc.) and tinker with different options: quantity of resources, climates, seasons etc. In a nutshell the RMG became more predictable and dependable.

Thirdly, there are several minor improvements to the game. You can have seasons in the game now. AFAIK, there are 3 seasons: summer ("standard season", no penalties), mud season - motorized units can't move beyond roads and have some movement penalties and air units can't fly, and winter - the supply demand of units is doubled.

There are some new units - jeeps, officers and maybe something else (again, it's been some time since I played the game). Jeeps are quite useless as a combat unit but have some limited use as a recon vehicles. Think of them as a toned down Armored Cars with now armor whatsoever. Officers were introduced a couple of days ago (the game is still updated, which is good thing), so you better read patch release notes :)

Every nation has something unique - for example, French have cheap fortresses, AngloSaxons have Rangers (expensive and good infantry), Chinese have Militia (cheap infantry) etc. Not that it completely changes nations' game strategies, but certainly adds some flavor to the game.

Fourthly, the AI calculates its turns much faster. Tens of times faster. From my POV, it deserves a separate mention since I usually play against the AI. Unfortunately, the AI itself wasn't improved, so his intelligence is quite limited.

Lastly, the Product Info says that there are some serious changes to Scenario Editor, but I can't tell about it, as I haven't tinkered with the Editor.

All in all, it's exactly what it says on tin: an improved and enhanced version of AT. If you've got some spare money and some interest in the AT engine, then by all means buy ATG. The game is definitely more complex and more interesting. In fact, the new ATG-only features are so well thought-out, that I can't even think about playing without them.

But if you expect some brand new experience - you won't get it. ATG is not a sequel to AT, it IS AT, but improved.

P.S. Oh, and the new art of units is "hit or miss" - look at the screenshots. For me it's a definite "miss". And I haven't learned to like the art, just to tolerate it, but I cringe every time.

2Wodin:
Though there are a lot of different "total overhaul" mods for ATG, I still think that it is best suited for WWI-WWII-Korea period. Its industrial\logistical system represents total wars and if you want to walk some miles in the shoes of WWI-WWII era political and military leaders there's no better game at operational-strategic level.

I repeat myself, but two core characteristics of AT are ability to build your army from a scratch and ability to play any random map. Where the game lacks in technical realism (there are no exact models of tanks, machine guns and whatnot) it more that makes up in the psychological and doctrinal realism.

Thus, I think that its strategic realism is even better than that of WiTE. WiTE suffers from the most well-known wargame disease - players' meta-knowledge of the historical period. For example, good players use it to predict that there will be severe penalties for Axis during winter of 41-42 (but not during other winters) and they PREPARE for it, though the real-world penalties were caused by the LACK of preparation for that winter season. Thus, the strategic uncertainty is eliminated from the game completely.

But I digress and too talkative as usual :) Sorry for that :)

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Post #: 42
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/23/2013 2:41:54 PM   
shunwick


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Konrad,

Thank you very much. I think I might take another look at ATG.

Best wishes,
Steve

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Post #: 43
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/26/2013 4:00:55 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Games discussed in here this far:

War in the East & expansion
Expensive monster game with few small scale scenarios I'm looking for. Too few, no sale.

Decisive Campaigns
Game action cards provide special attacks and other actions. Major turn off for me.

John Tiller's Campaign Serie
Tactical scale combat, not operational. No deal.

Unity of Command
Looks much like Panzer Corps and predecessors (Battle Isle and Panzer General series). Nope!

Command Ops
No hexes, no sale.

The Operational Art of War, Volume III
I have understood that manual lacks details which has led new players ask things around the forums, like what some numbers and colours mean. But great variety of different theaters, wars, scales, and presence of my home nation (Finland) are strong selling points. Bought & downloaded, now to install the game and RTFM!


Check out Schwerpunkt also. Hexes, operational level (divisions), LOTS of scenarios large and small. WWII-E is currently in playtest and should be released later this year.

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Post #: 44
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/31/2013 11:18:27 AM   
Agent S


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+1 on Schwerpunkt.
Have enjoyed Anglo-German War, as mush as any game I've played, printed or P.C.

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Post #: 45
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 4/28/2013 7:37:56 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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Double-post. Forum is acting up.

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 4/28/2013 7:45:18 PM >

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Post #: 46
RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 4/28/2013 7:39:37 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Anyway hows the OP getting on with TOAW?

I got off the work early today. I read through rest of the Tutorial (Korea) scenario documentation and started playing. I got Seoul on second turn. In screenshot below one division forces breakthrough early in second turn. Before third turn is over, enemy forces between have been decimated, and Seoul & immediate neighborhood are mostly secured despite arrival of enemy reinforcements. I'm going to use my battered divisions to fortify and defend Seoul while they rest, and use reserve divisions (2 just north of Seoul, not been in combat yet) to do some recon-in-force.




[edit]
I didn't leave anything to secure the breakthrough gap, my breakthrough force got cut off, and their supply & readiness were red by third turn. Good thing I managed to get rid off the enemy forces between.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 4/28/2013 7:42:30 PM >


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You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

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Post #: 47
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