Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard's operation "Torch" supply issues.

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard's operation "Torch" supply issues.

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Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard's o... - 3/9/2013 2:59:44 PM

Sensei.Tokugawa

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Hello fellow wargamers.

I have been playing through a few turns of the first scenario in the PBEM mode and am about to launch the other agaimnst another opponent of mine, but there is a problem. I think that when the 3.4 patch was still at the beta stage, there was thread somewhere where someone stated that the Burmese campaign scenario under the latest game version there is virtually unplayable due to the supply issues. I wrongly assumed that with the alpha version and the Burma campaign scenario as the stock one there the problem won't occur again. Now my IJA opponent is claiming that his Japs are on 1% supply which is no spupply at all and my intel ideed indicated they are red as uncle Stalin in his terror days. Don't think they should be such early into their conquest, they took care to keep their lines open and haven't even moved any deeper into the contested territory. Something's wrong with that. The Allied submarines surveilling the north African cost prior to operation "Torch" in Erik's scenario are also in the red status with 1% supply, a similar situation: I haven't yet read the scenario description that comes along with the scenario file, but don't think it's normal and should be that way. It may be the scenario flaw - had such with Erik's "Russo - Japanese War 1904 - 1905" and "Holland '44: A Bridge too Far" - or yet again the latest patch defficiency and there are a few as we know.

Anybody who has encountered such problems, played te scenarios before or can and will have a look there?

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Post #: 1

RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/9/2013 4:51:22 PM

sPzAbt653

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I don't recall any major supply issues with 3.4, but don't play with New Supply (or New Turn Order) Rules unless the scenario briefings specifically say to use them.

(in reply to Sensei.Tokugawa)

Post #: 2

RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/9/2013 5:19:52 PM

Sensei.Tokugawa

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So why do we have those new rules for? This makes me assume it's only for the new scenarios to be created. Fair enough I'd say even though I don't really feel it is - it's not and we have been cheated, getting an update which makes the majority of the scenarios unserviceable and that way actually degrading the game instead of improving. I have - and what about the "4th Strategic Attack" designed for version 3.4 with the unbreakable Finnish frontline resulting in an outcome far from the historic one? Scenario flawed?

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RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/9/2013 6:32:52 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

So why do we have those new rules for? This makes me assume it's only for the new scenarios to be created.

Not 'only for new scenarios', but for anyone who wishes to take advantage of the different (called 'new') rules by either updating a pre-3.4 scenario or by putting together new scenarios. Especially attractive are the Variable Suppy Points. They add a lot of possibilities.

quote:

...we have been cheated, getting an update which makes the majority of the scenarios unserviceable ...

I felt the same way at first, but then I realized that if the scenario didn't specifically say to use New Supply or New Turn order Rules, then the scenario obviously hadn't been designed for them (because anyone who spent the time modifying a scenario for either would certainly put it in the scenario description).

quote:

what about the "4th Strategic Attack" designed for version 3.4 with the unbreakable Finnish frontline

Sorry, but I don't have any experience with this scenario, maybe someone that does can offer some insight.

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Post #: 4

RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/9/2013 6:34:28 PM

shunwick

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Burroughs,

Neither of those scenarios were created for 3.4. The latest patch changed a great deal of stuff and many of the pre-3.4 scenarios have not reacted well to the changes. The general rule is if it isn't specifically badged for 3.4 then play the game with New Turn Rules and New Supply Rules both off. This does not really help with the unbreakable Finnish frontline since that is due to another issue that was brought into the light by 3.4. Generally speaking, defence got beefed up in 3.4. There is a workaround for it but it means modding the scenario and it won't help with any on-going game.

Sorry, was talking about Burma Campaign and Fourth Strategic Attack. Operation Torch is badged for 3.4 and you will need to to get the submarines to a resupply point.

Best wishes,
Steve

< Message edited by shunwick -- 3/9/2013 6:42:17 PM >

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Post #: 5

RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/9/2013 6:46:10 PM

Sensei.Tokugawa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

Sorry, was talking about Burma Campaign and Fourth Strategic Attack. Operation Torch is badged for 3.4 and you will need to to get the submarines to a resupply point.

Best wishes,
Steve

Thanks a lot, gentlemen. Isn't that game great? Glory to the community.

One more thing - is there a list or a roster specifying which scenarios are fully playable with the 3.4 patch? That would help a lot I daresay.

< Message edited by burroughs -- 3/9/2013 6:49:54 PM >

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RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/9/2013 7:08:24 PM

shunwick

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Burroughs,

Any scenario badged as 3.4 should play ok with the new turn and new supply rules providing that the briefing doesn't mention that you will need to play with the old rules.

Keep in mind that you are talking to someone who mods just about every scenario I play. I can't think of single one that I have not modded in some way or another although some require a lot less work than others.

There were many very nice changes introduced in 3.4 but it was not particularly pre-3.4 scenario friendly.

Those subs, by the way, begin the scenario with 1% supply. It is a scenario design decision.

If you have excel you might like to look over at the Gamesquad forum. Some mad bugger is creating a scenario catalogue with just the kind of information you are looking for. Not finished yet and the mad bugger in question is temporarily burnt out on TOAW so there hasn't been an update for a about 4 weeks but he is likely to get back to it sometime in the near future.

Best wishes,
Steve

< Message edited by shunwick -- 3/9/2013 7:18:21 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/9/2013 7:48:17 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

is there a list or a roster specifying which scenarios are fully playable with the 3.4 patch?

Other than the mad bugger at Gamesquad, a hint can be gleaned by the scenario briefing as to which version the scenario was last used/modded/updated :

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Sensei.Tokugawa)

Post #: 8

RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/9/2013 7:51:07 PM

sPzAbt653

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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

I can't think of single one that I have not modded in some way or another

I'm with you Steve ... I felt like playing an Italian 43-45 scenario, so I opened one up and played about 15 turns before stopping to change some stuff. That's been 3 weeks ago and I might be half-way done if I'm lucky.

The Lure of the Editor - The Curse of the Editor

Steve (the other one) lol.

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Post #: 9

RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/9/2013 8:53:36 PM

Curtis Lemay

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In the Burma scenario, all the Jap supply points (at least the ones that connect to RR lines) are under exclusion zones. Old supply evidently allowed one to trace into an exclusion zone. New supply didn't take that into account.

While that's been fixed in 3.5, I don't feel too embarassed not to have caught that issue before 3.4's release. It's a pretty weird thing to do.

I don't go so far as to say that no old scenarios should be played with New Supply or New Turn Order. I think it will mostly be these sort of weird cases that won't work with them. But I would advise caution. Maybe do a PO vs. PO run first, to see how that turns out.

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RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/9/2013 10:02:26 PM

shunwick

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Joined: 10/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I don't go so far as to say that no old scenarios should be played with New Supply or New Turn Order. I think it will mostly be these sort of weird cases that won't work with them. But I would advise caution. Maybe do a PO vs. PO run first, to see how that turns out.

Bob, you are right. Much depends on the specific scenario. There are some pre 3.4 scenarios that play perfectly well with the new turn and supply rules. I have not been able to determine any particular method for working out how a scenario will react apart from testing it out first.

3.4 was a great patch. It had so much lovely stuff in it.

Best wishes,
Steve

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RE: Burma campaign '42 - '45 by Sam Mudd & Erik Nygaard... - 3/10/2013 5:59:35 PM

berto

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Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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After 3.4 was released, I too tried playing the Burma Campaign scenario, and saw the same issues you are seeing (and worse). 3.4 borked that scenario. I don't have the patience to -- by trial and error, forum searches, discussions with the scenario designer, whatever -- determine the precise matrix of default/legacy optional rules to retrieve that scenario (and others).

I maintain a TOAW 3.2 install to play scenarios created pre 3.4. The Vietnam Combat Operation (VCO) scenarios, for instance.

I have a separate 3.4 install, but with that version I will only play scenarios specifically vetted for 3.4.

<sigh>