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China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed

 
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China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/9/2013 1:58:23 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 2732
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From: Salida, CA.
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I've decided to try and work on the China always collapsing problem in game by modding the daily supply settings in China. My intent is to try and find a sweet spot in the supply income for China so the land units in China can actually afford to use the large replacement pools China has but not so much that land based 4E bombers can be used without a large air transport effort being used first.

So there will probably be a lot of restarts as we work on the mod. I've initially given a lot of extra daily supplies to China and predict these settings will have to be brought down, but I wanted the first play through to be from a position of overabundance of supply to see if a country flush with supplies can even stand up to Japan at all. So I'd like to face a Japanese opponent who has a strong land game to test the limits of China's land army.

I'm hoping the fact most land battles won't be suffering from the (-supply) hit will be enough to give China a fighting chance of holding onto stuff now. If not then other things besides supply will have to be looked at as well, but hopefully that won't be the case and balancing the supply income will be all that needs to be looked at.

So what I suggest is we park all ships and planes on map except the stuff in China and turn on auto-convoys to allow Japan's economy to still hum along well enough to keep China fed with supplies without forcing the Japanese player to spend time on convoy management. If needed perhaps a few key oil/resource sites may need to be captured to give the Japanese economy the income it needs, but turning off a lot of industry instead may be all that is required, I'm not sure.

Japan should take Hong Kong and then only bring to China what is typical of a normal China effort in game. We want to balance things so China can easily stand up to a normal effort but still make it so a very strong effort by Japan has a chance at success.

To keep progress moving along at a good pace I'd prefer an opponent who can turn out at least 2 - 3 turns a day or more if possible. Given we will just be focusing on the China game this shouldn't be too time consuming.

The scenario I've modded is DaBigBabes-A stock map 7 Dec. start as that's the one I like to play, and I've saved it to use slot 37. I think I've put all the needed files in this archive, but as this is my first attempt at a mod I'm not sure if I missed something that's needed.



Jim


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< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 3/9/2013 2:01:27 AM >


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RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/17/2013 12:57:24 PM   
spence

 

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It seems to me that you are barking up the wrong tree to a significant degree.

IMHO the problem with China's collapse is that Japan can supply its Army too well.

Japan had a horse-drawn army. A horse drawn army is fatally tied to railroads (and navigable rivers) to provide its army with sufficient ammunition (other supplies might be important but modern warfare expends prodigal amounts of ammunition). Although it had at least one fine river leading into its interior (Yangtze) China had few railroads. The Japanese couldn't move very far at all from those railroads because their logistics system, the Mark 1, Mod 0 horse consumed incredible amounts of the total tonnage it was required to move and the tonnage consumed increased geometrically as the distance from a rail-head increased.

The German Army was extremely tactically proficient but depended on railroads and horses to move its supplies.

Did not the German Army in WWI recoil from Paris in the Battle of the Marne because it had outrun it supplies (machine guns cut down Allied attacks without problem only so long as they had bullets)?

Did not the German Army in WWII recoil from Moscow (and Stalingrad and the Caucasus) in large part because it had outrun its supplies?

It should be noted that the rail systems in Europe and European Russia were highly developed compared to China and the rest of Asia.

The logistical studies of the British Army during the 20's revealed that during WWI it had shipped more tons of horse fodder across the Channel to France than tons of ammunition. So the British Army motorized itself.

Tactically the Japanese demonstrated considerable tactical superiority over the Chinese most of the time. Unless one subscribes to the discredited ideas of racial/national superiority then the most likely reason they were able to enjoy such success was that they "get there first with the most". And in the 20th Century that meant more ammo and logistical support rather than more men.

I've seen it asked and have wondered myself just what the function of "motorized support" is in the game. It certainly reflects the equipment of the real Allied units but it often seems more of a nuisance (unloading times/requirements) than anything else since it seems to confer almost no advantages to those units. (if there are any over regular [horse-drawn] support they are so seldom of any use as to be obscure).

I am no programer but it would seem to require some sort of program-fix to fix the "Chinese House of Cards". A change in the supply cost of each non-railroad, non-base hex for (regular) support or similar. The "invisible" roads/tracks in each hex should confer an actual support advantage to using trucks under most circumstances.

Thus, if Japan wishes to pursue a "China Strategy" it should need to invest its production in "motorized support" (rather than fighter planes/aircraft carriers/other sexy weapons systems) of some incarnation to be able to move off of the railroads.

The Japanese "China Strategy" is pure gameyness. Used as the foundation of the war against the Western Allies is an egregious flaw in an otherwise fun "historical" simulation.


(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 2
RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/18/2013 1:39:04 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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I'm experimenting with the "China collapse problem" as well. Like Spence, I don't think more daily supply for China will achieve the goal on its own. Instead I try to hamper Japanese troop and supply movments.

I have covered the Eastern part of China with dot bases (not enough base slots in the editor to cover all of China...). Every hex with a railroad, a road or which is cultivated has a dot base and each city is surrounded by dot bases regardless of terrain or infrastructure. The dots have supply caps - tentatively I have selected 1000 for major railroads and down to 10 for roadless mountains or jungles. This should slow the flow of supplies esp. outside the RR network and hamper offensive operations.

Each non-city dot base has a tentative garrison requirement of 10 for Japan. There are enough small units (mostly split-up "Chinese Puppet" units) to garrison the Railroad network currently under Japanese occupation (at least on the DBB mod which is the basis for my variant), but any further conquests will require the use of Japanese combat units for garrison - which should further limit offensive ambitions.

In order to prevent the automatic takeover of Chinese dot bases, each dot has a small Chinese "Civil Administration" unit. To support these units, each dot tentatively gets 1 daily supply. This is actually more than needed per Admin unit and the modest surplus is expected to be siphoned off for other uses like strengthening Chinese combat units.

Finally, since the big rivers in China lacked bridges, no Railroads or Main roads cross the middle and lower parts of the Yangtze and Yellow River. This slows strategic troop movements. On the other hand, both rivers are navigable and both Japan and China have their historic fleets of river gunboats plus an allottment of junk and sampan barges for transportation purposes.

Now, the tentative values I have selected for supply caps, garrison requirements and daily supply are personal choices and quite probably need tweaking - time will tell.

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WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 3
RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/18/2013 4:35:57 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

It seems to me that you are barking up the wrong tree to a significant degree.




Hi, to me it seems that all of you are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to the 'early collapse of China' issue:

While the flow of supplies is an issue when it comes to China (this is mainly a map issue), the early collapse of China in many games is mostly a result of other things.

1) Many Chinese forces are wrongly positioned on the map because detailed information about their real positions was not available when the OOB for AE was done (the design team, that is Andey, a Chinese contributor and myself, used was available then; I have much better and detailed source material now), while there was much better material Japanese forces available (I recently discovered some errata, but nothing that really matters in this regard). In short: Because the positioning of forces does not correspond, the Chinese are at a disadvantage in December 1941 (historically they were better positioned to stop Japanese advances).

2) The troopstrength of Chinese forces is lower than it was historically. If you do a map with stacking limits, you can fix this (basically by giving Chinese forces a higher [unmodified] Assault Value but lower firepower (in short: more infantry squads with lower anti-soft ratings).

Just my two cents!

If I find the time, I will explain this in more detail sometime later.

'K'

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 4
RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/18/2013 5:23:10 PM   
Herrbear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

It seems to me that you are barking up the wrong tree to a significant degree.




Hi, to me it seems that all of you are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to the 'early collapse of China' issue:

While the flow of supplies is an issue when it comes to China (this is mainly a map issue), the early collapse of China in many games is mostly a result of other things.

1) Many Chinese forces are wrongly positioned on the map because detailed information about their real positions was not available when the OOB for AE was done (the design team, that is Andey, a Chinese contributor and myself, used was available then; I have much better and detailed source material now), while there was much better material Japanese forces available (I recently discovered some errata, but nothing that really matters in this regard). In short: Because the positioning of forces does not correspond, the Chinese are at a disadvantage in December 1941 (historically they were better positioned to stop Japanese advances).

2) The troopstrength of Chinese forces is lower than it was historically. If you do a map with stacking limits, you can fix this (basically by giving Chinese forces a higher [unmodified] Assault Value but lower firepower (in short: more infantry squads with lower anti-soft ratings).

Just my two cents!

If I find the time, I will explain this in more detail sometime later.

'K'


That is very interesting information. I hope that you will be able to release your findings in the future.

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 5
RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/19/2013 12:55:34 AM   
Skyros


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Yes I too am interested in your sources.

(in reply to Herrbear)
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RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/19/2013 1:47:01 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 2732
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From: Salida, CA.
Status: online
If supply in China isn't addressed, China will never be able to hold in game. Adding more strength to units to bring them up to historical OOBs will only serve to magnify the current problem with low supply in China. About 3 or 4 years ago I added up supply production and compared it to daily unit requirements. I'm not sure if these numbers are 100% accurate anymore, but I assume nothing major has changed as China collapses pretty regularly from what I see in the AAR forum.

Here are the numbers I got back then:

quote:

Supplies required/used by units: 71, 535 which equals 2, 385 per day
Supplies on hand in units: 77, 273
Supplies available at bases: 124, 441

Daily production of supply in China from all sources: 4, 205 (assumes Burma Road supply of 500 per day, though I can’t confirm it is WAD).

But of the above supply production, Wenchow, Kwangchowan, Kweiteh, Chengchow and Loyang won’t be in Chinese hands for very long, so China has a daily production of 3, 965 if we don’t count the production at these bases.

That leaves a surplus of just 1,580 supplies per day before factoring in things like spoilage and supplies lost when they get pulled into units over the poor roadway system in China.


So with a daily surplus of just 1,580 a day, it becomes apparent that China will starve to death as soon as combats increase the daily supply needs of units. Most units use a good 50%-100% more supplies per day when in combat, so the 2,385 used per day by the Chinese army that is peacefully sitting still will jump to well above 3,500 once they enter combats.

Now consider the fact that all the disabled equipment items that start in the Chinese units don't use any supplies while disabled, but do use supplies once repaired and you can see China is hard wired to collapse in on itself due to too little supply. Once disabled equipment items are repaired, China's daily requirement will almost double as almost half of every unit starts disabled.

There is simply no way the current supply production in game can feed the Chinese let alone allow them to fight a war.

Tweaking the Japanese garrison system is a great idea and one that will go a long way to creating the historical stalemate we all want to see in China, but China's army will still starve to death if supply isn't addressed.

Jim


Edit: These numbers are for just Chinese land units, no supply for air units was even looked at.

So for simplicities sake let's assume exactly half of China's army starts disabled. So as soon as it is all repaired the at peace daily requirement of 2, 385 doubles to a daily need of 4, 770. Now Assume a low intensity conflict and combats only increase peace time needs by 25%. That brings up daily demands for just the land army to 5,962. Low intensity isn't very likely but I didn't want to inflate the estimate as my point is already made even before we look at the costs of actually fighting the war itself.

That's already well above the perfect case scenario of a daily supply production of 4, 205 without losing any bases that they start with. And We've only considered the at start army, no air units or new reinforcement units have been considered.

Now factor in daily needs growing due to China's army growing in size due to replacement draw, base construction, supply lost to bombings, spoilage, etc. and it is very plain that China simply has too little supply to survive.

I don't know what the sweet spot would be where we give them enough supply to survive and actually fight the war, but not enough to operate heavy bombers without a major air lift operation, but it would be nice if that sweet spot could be found.


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 3/19/2013 10:36:38 AM >


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RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/19/2013 2:01:00 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Herrbear
That is very interesting information. I hope that you will be able to release your findings in the future.


+1


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WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to Herrbear)
Post #: 8
RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/19/2013 3:08:25 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 11998
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

It seems to me that you are barking up the wrong tree to a significant degree.




Hi, to me it seems that all of you are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to the 'early collapse of China' issue:

While the flow of supplies is an issue when it comes to China (this is mainly a map issue), the early collapse of China in many games is mostly a result of other things.

1) Many Chinese forces are wrongly positioned on the map because detailed information about their real positions was not available when the OOB for AE was done (the design team, that is Andey, a Chinese contributor and myself, used was available then; I have much better and detailed source material now), while there was much better material Japanese forces available (I recently discovered some errata, but nothing that really matters in this regard). In short: Because the positioning of forces does not correspond, the Chinese are at a disadvantage in December 1941 (historically they were better positioned to stop Japanese advances).

2) The troopstrength of Chinese forces is lower than it was historically. If you do a map with stacking limits, you can fix this (basically by giving Chinese forces a higher [unmodified] Assault Value but lower firepower (in short: more infantry squads with lower anti-soft ratings).

Just my two cents!

If I find the time, I will explain this in more detail sometime later.

'K'



very good comments K. While I have got no clue about the real Chinese positions I've always had a hr in my AE games on a truce in China for the first three months of the war. This because I've always felt it makes it far too easy (compared to real life) to kill the Chinese Army being horribly dispersed around the map and due to how ground warfare works in the game.

If you give an Allied player the Chance to regroup his Chinese hords those IJ players used to roll over the whole map soon start to think there is something wrong with the game as they haven't killed 1 mio Chinese troops by March 42. Playing Babes light I have found supply to be sufficient to get a stalemate in China by mid 42 (if you can keep supply coming over the Burma road as long as possible). By early 43 you have to secure Rangoon and the rest of Burma to open the Burma road again though, otherwhise your Chinese Army will start to actually starve some time in 43. I had lots of supply moving over the Burma Road, upped my Chinese supply to around 250,000 (in bases) when the road was closed in 42, within a year, it was down to 100-150,000 (in bases) without much fighting, just recoering disablements, building forts and feeding the Army. With a war going, no chance to feed your Army if you haven't lost most of it early on, lose most of it early on and you lose China anyway. Just my 2c.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/19/2013 3:13:16 PM >


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RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/20/2013 12:07:55 AM   
el cid again

 

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I think Kereguelen is somewhat on the right track. Not only are Chinese units understrength, or entirely missing, they also are in the wrong places. Starting with a better OOB in terms of what is where is the first step toward a solution. The entire air force infrastructure should be modeled, including remanufacturing capability. But anyway, base forces permitting Chinese planes to air transfer where they really could - which is to say - anywhere. No great concentration around Ichang in the Yangtze Gorge either - that battle was lost in 1940 and those troops are not concentrated in a place where they cannot be fed and have no useful function. As well, I like to add somewhat supply independent guerilla units - which is possible by putting supplies in the LCU itself - understanding that whatever you put in adds every day but it consumes only 1/30 of a supply point per squad on the average when not in combat.

I think Kereguelen is also correct about the map. China benefits greatly from development of its infrastructure and simply from adding locations. Each location becomes a potential fortified position or air base as well as a source of resources, supplies and sometimes oil and fuel. I prefer to MAKE supplies at locations to providing FREE supplies - unless the free supplies represent something unusual not related to what is produced (and then in small amounts - every free supply point per day = 360 tons per year of products - which is a lot IMHO). Thus a place with a significant fishing industry might get 1 supply point per day on top of what industry produces. Even if you get more fish than that, you need to can it or dry it to preserve it - so the "extra fish" should then become "resources" and "light industry" should turn them into supply points. Anyway, supplies in China are sauce for both goose and gander IMHO - and the use of industry to make them means that there can be complications (damaged industry, some industry gets cut in half when captured, etc). At the same time, major population centers should need garrisons - and the automatic attacks on infrastructure when it isn't provided is also a good mechanism to tie down troops (or make it cost).

This is a surprisingly difficult problem to address. Each location should be able to feed a certain amount of troops, but be overwhelmed when the number is vastly greater than that. Also, the need to move resources, oil, fuel, etc tends to stress the road and rail network - because the same network moves supplies. This tends to cause different areas to become sort of "micro-eonomies" - they feed locations in the area well connected pretty good - but excesses of whatever don't do you much good somewhere else - UNLESS you can move them (say by ship - or even by airplane).

Speaking of airlift, China has some of its own. CNAC was the first important mover of supplies from India to China, but ALSO it had a vital role INSIDE China - with aircraft of less range. There is also a minor airline (formerly German using Junkers tri-motors initially) rename Eurasia Airlines taken over by the nationalists - and flying different routes. IF you add civil airlift it is most useful to the Chinese player in feeding critical supply short locations at a critical moment.

Simply adding locations - double or triple them at a minimum - goes a long way - IF one ALSO gives each location appropriate assets that make what that location really could make - remembering that every location in China was to some degree making "supplies" to feed itself - and some of those could be "skimmed" or "taxed" ("squeezed" is the Chinese term). Some locations are good defensive positions - on high ground with a relatively effective 14 meter high wall 10 meters thick - or occasionally actually fortified in the modern sense: give em a fort. Make the garrison requirement related to population - thus a small location has none at all - but any city with millions of people has a significant one - and a population (then) of 100,000 plus is probably the place to start for a small garrision - of 10. Make sure the Chinese have the garrison present too - so they don't get hurt because the new location is "empty."

But a major part of the problem is MENTALITY of the Chinese player. Chinese troops are NOT 'valuable, expensive' things with great political significance as in modern armies. In game terms, they regenerate in 30 days - so they are MUCH MORE expendable than other troops. Learn to take any unit, or remnant of a unit, in a bad situation, and write it off to a purpose - go jump on some road or RR - preferably in the best defensive terrain nearby - and just sit there cutting the LOC. Japan can NOT tolerate loss of main roads and rail lines - and everything "downstream" of the cut is more or less in trouble. Do this often enough and you can render powerful armies vulnerable. Force Japan to fall back on the coast or the Yangtze or Pearl River systems (where it can feed them by sea) - and suck ships into the feeding business - so they are not helping the Japanese hurt the Allies on other fronts. In particular, consider RR vital targets - fight for the RR LOC - and never ever stop sending units to cut them even when they "clear the line." Force them to think they must defend every hex - or not be able to move and be fed by the RR. If a unit is cut off from a good situation and is doomed to die - die on a RR if you can - otherwise on a road. [It will come back in 30 days - pretty fast - better to lose it sooner and then recycle]

Do NOT challenge the Japanese in the air like you have a real air force - until you do. Build experience - stay back EXCEPT where the Japanese are NOT operating in force in the air. THEN become a pain by attacking ground units - attriting them away with the "rain from above." Fly sneaking night raids he cannot effectively oppose. Attack ships in port - a problem in a country where he needs to move supplies by ships to cope with you.

Another thing I do is give the Chinese a real naval capability of the mundane kind that really matters. The ability to move troops and supplies most of all. I put a ROC Naval HQ at Chunking and subordinate a division of troops to it. It is unrestricted. These troops can make riverine raids, cutting LOC at unpredictable points. USN and RN gunboats were turned over to ROCN, so I give them double names [RN/ROCN Gannet or something like that] and base them at Chunking - where they fled to. China improvised its own gunboats - so do that too - arming junks for example. China invented what you might call a junk hull type LCM - it has a bow ramp - and is motorized - and has more range than many "official" LCMs do - so they get them too. China had numbers of river tankers and modern small transports, not just traditional craft. And I am experimenting with the "river boom" concept - in the form of armed vessels that move too slowly to be useful as transports - but can be loaded with troops and - togeter with their organic weapons - present a real problem to Japanese river traffic trying to pass.

One thing that helps is to put in ALL of China's oil, natural gas and coal gas fields - some of them have been producing for thousands of years from depths up to 50 meters using bamboo pipes. The economic starvation of China in game terms is to a lerge degree imposed by poor infrarstructure modeling in the map locations. To a greater degree than other places, each location in China is to some extent self sufficient. Unable to get much from New York or some other distant place, they tend to be able to make supplies from local suff. The first oil industry - at Yennan about 1909 - led to the first oil refinery - about 1925 - causing growth of industry that needed oil and fuel in the same hex - in the 1930s. This happened over and over. Better to be able to use the oil locally than to need to move it kind of thing. If many of these locations are not huge, so much the better. They do not become strategic targets for armies, and they feed local ops just the same as big ones do. What China needs is the ability to feed operations in MANY places, at a MODERATE level - so an invading enemy army that is huge - with an air force that wants supplies - cannot get enough of what it needs. But the local defense forces DO get much of what they need. By stockpiling at vital points, and fortifying them, and then raiding enemy LOC - you create a framework in which a player who thinks like a Chinese general can at least make em worry and consider trade off decisions: "shoud we sent more planes to China?" - instead of raid China for troops and air units to use in the conquest of the SRA.


(in reply to Kereguelen)
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RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/21/2013 3:12:58 AM   
topeverest

 

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I's also lean that the game probably accurates depicts the ability of the empire to whip chinese forces in most situations, but it is too easy to draw empire supply, and too many of the empire forces are available to attack, rather that garrison current holdings.

In successive mods in China, we tried empire garrison reqirements, more allied supply sources, no Strategic bombing on china booty, and more auto supply. IMHO, the concept that play-balanced the best was garrison requiremnts with no strategic bombing, because less AV was available for combat operations. Not perfect to be sure.

We went so far as to try to calculate the average garrisons in major empire holdings in Japan.

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Post #: 11
RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/21/2013 11:32:25 PM   
spence

 

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The fundamental problem is the utterly ridiculous idea, which unfortunately this game promotes, that Japan could win the war with China by adding to the number of enemies it had to fight and dividing the forces with which it had to fight amongst the resulting greater number of fronts.

Japans forces did not have enough logistic support. Tactically they could beat the Chinese in stand-up combat. They had more and better artillery. They had tanks. They had an Air Force.
But they needed gasoline and ammunition to use all those things. And they had horses and carts to move those things. In the TOE of their divisions they had a transportation regiment of 18 platoons: each platoon usually of 220 men and 130 carts. (some divisions had some trucks instead but it was anything except general). Each platoon had a supply lift of roughly 70 tons. Sounds like a lot until one realizes that that 70 tons also includes the weight of the horse fodder needed to move the cart each day. Not such a big problem if the cart only has to move a few miles from the rail-head to the troops but a bigger and bigger problem the further that the cart needs to move from the rail. And China had few rails. And Burma had few rails. And New Guinea had few rails. In all those places Japan's offensives ran out of steam.

Consider also the results of "The Scheiffen Plan" in France 1914; especially its extreme right flank. The Germans got to the gates of Paris but their rail-heads were way back in Belgium. And so they fell back to positions where they felt they could support their army. And then they engaged in "The Race to the Sea" which ended up with the British Army dug into Picardy and the Belgians holding a sliver of Belgium. All that area was more or less behind the German 1st and 2nd Armies when the Battle of the Marne ended and yet they couldn't just grab it because they couldn't support their troops in those areas because their supply rail-heads were all "aimed" at France/Paris. The Japanese Army of 1941 was, in the logistics sense, little to no better developed than the German Army of 1914. It was entirely dependent on rail for the movement of supply.

I previously mentioned that the game includes "support" and "motorized support" and as best I can tell motorized support has no advantage whatsoever over support: that is to say carts and horses move supply just as far just as fast as trucks. I am not a programmer and I don't really know what has been written in the underlying code to differentiate these unit types from one another but it would seem that there must be some attribute that one could change or perhaps add for the unit type which would limit its ability to function as support which would be proportional to the distance of the unit from a rail-head or a port. Such an attribute would have no effect on an island like Saipan or Tarawa or in the DEI, and might hardly be noticed in Malaya or the Philippines or even on Guadalcanal but would be important in underdeveloped areas like China or Burma or New Guinea.

Ultimately redeployment of Chinese units or changes in supply levels and so forth are going to be gamed so that they become unimportant since every conceivable effect of these things can be known to the player who is willing to devote enough study to that particular game feature. Seems to me that the game solution to the problem of insufficient logistical support is already part of the game: to spend resources to build more logistical support. Admittedly, building trucks has less sex appeal than building "Ki-500" nuclear powered, supersonic, flying death ray projectors but shouldn't reality have some role in the Japanese Player's play.


(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 12
RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/22/2013 3:15:06 AM   
Skyros


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I think the only difference between Motorized support and regular support is that Motorized support requires additional lift capabilities when transporting the unit.

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RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/22/2013 7:21:50 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros
I think the only difference between Motorized support and regular support is that Motorized support requires additional lift capabilities when transporting the unit.

This is exactly correct. The game engine cannot differentiate between the individual elements of a unit's device composition. A unit is "as a whole" either Inf, Armor, or whatever. The engine cannot determine whether a unit is truck mobile or horse drawn so those considerations are irrelevant in game terms. The differentiation between MotSup and Sup is simply, and practically, a method of adjusting the load cost of various formations so that they conform to some grand concept of "lift capability" that works within the game paradigm.

Everybody knows, or should know, the specificity of load differences between the IJA and the USN. Practical utilization of the transport assets available to the two sides compels the intelligent adaptation of load costs. the different specifications and behaviors of MotSup and Sup were devised to address those differences.

JWE

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(in reply to Skyros)
Post #: 14
RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 3/22/2013 10:54:15 PM   
JeffK


Posts: 4669
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: offline
What happens to a unit with no support points?

Does a Command HQ project support points within its "Range"

I was thinking that if a LCU needs support points to operate, removing the points makes it rely on a higher command to support it.
If the Corps/Army unit can provide support within its radius you would need to support your combat units with HQ's

You would give the HQ enough support points to cover an "average" corps.

My thinking is that you have fewer HQs so instead of broad front attacks you have to concentrate your power and manage your numers more efficiently.

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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 15
RE: China Supply mod Japanese opponent needed - 5/10/2013 2:39:55 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 2528
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: The deepest, darkest pit of hell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

1) Many Chinese forces are wrongly positioned on the map because detailed information about their real positions was not available when the OOB for AE was done (the design team, that is Andey, a Chinese contributor and myself, used was available then; I have much better and detailed source material now), while there was much better material Japanese forces available (I recently discovered some errata, but nothing that really matters in this regard). In short: Because the positioning of forces does not correspond, the Chinese are at a disadvantage in December 1941 (historically they were better positioned to stop Japanese advances).

[...]

If I find the time, I will explain this in more detail sometime later.

'K'


Still waiting!

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WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 16
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