What's the status of AP's and AK's?

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What's the status of AP's and AK's?

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What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/8/2013 11:56:43 PM

AW1Steve

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I'm having a dispute with a friend on this one. He contends that AK's (ALL) and AP's (all) are merchant crewed. I feel that a significant number were USN or USCG crewed. Like ALL AP's. Otherwise how could you possibly use them to invade a beach head? We got into this a little with the AKL's used as pickets. I really think that this is a subject we should explore, and hear from the developers. Any thoughts?

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 12:02:05 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm having a dispute with a friend on this one. He contends that AK's (ALL) and AP's (all) are merchant crewed. I feel that a significant number were USN or USCG crewed. Like ALL AP's. Otherwise how could you possibly use them to invade a beach head? We got into this a little with the AKL's used as pickets. I really think that this is a subject we should explore, and hear from the developers. Any thoughts?

Yeah. Don't worry about pickets.

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The Moose

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Post #: 2

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 12:14:37 AM

Bullwinkle58

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Every American AP I can find in a cursory look had a Navy crew and were commissioned vessels. Some non-US APs, such as Queen Elizabeth, retianed at least some civilian crew such as the master.

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Post #: 3

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 12:16:56 AM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Every American AP I can find in a cursory look had a Navy crew and were commissioned vessels. Some non-US APs, such as Queen Elizabeth, retianed at least some civilian crew such as the master.

The Queens, as were most liners were RMS. That makes them Royal Navy auxiliaries even in peacetime.

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Post #: 4

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 12:17:59 AM

AW1Steve

Posts: 12018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm having a dispute with a friend on this one. He contends that AK's (ALL) and AP's (all) are merchant crewed. I feel that a significant number were USN or USCG crewed. Like ALL AP's. Otherwise how could you possibly use them to invade a beach head? We got into this a little with the AKL's used as pickets. I really think that this is a subject we should explore, and hear from the developers. Any thoughts?

Yeah. Don't worry about pickets.

I don't. That's what YP's and other "patrol craft" are for. Patrolling.

_____________________________

"Don't hold yourself up as an example of what community members should aspire to. You have a long history of rude behavior, and you overract to the slightest provocation."
Amoral

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 5

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 12:29:45 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 6197
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Every American AP I can find in a cursory look had a Navy crew and were commissioned vessels. Some non-US APs, such as Queen Elizabeth, retianed at least some civilian crew such as the master.

The Queens, as were most liners were RMS. That makes them Royal Navy auxiliaries even in peacetime.

If the issue is confined to the US forces I think you're safe to claim all had Navy crews. From what I could find fast it became even more moot in 1943 as all or most APs converted to APAs, which were without a doubt USN ships.

But even with civilian crews troopships were valid targets of war. I know there's this presumption around the forum that if the crews were civilain they could refuse to do anything dangerous, but in reality that didn't happen. Civilian, union sailors crewed the merchant marine and were in the war. If such a ship had been ordered by the Navy to do picket duty, which would have been a legal order on the ship as it had been requisitioned by the government, any individual crewman could have refused to go and gotten off with no military justice falling on him. He might have gotten wet, or found himself on a sandy beach somewhere, but he could get off. In reality I don't think that would have happened for patriotic and peer pressure reasons.

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Post #: 6

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 9:04:28 AM

Chris H

Posts: 2874
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From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Every American AP I can find in a cursory look had a Navy crew and were commissioned vessels. Some non-US APs, such as Queen Elizabeth, retianed at least some civilian crew such as the master.

The Queens, as were most liners were RMS. That makes them Royal Navy auxiliaries even in peacetime.

...but still retain theie crews. E.g. The Falklands. These might be augmented by some RN/RM usually to man any guns fitted.

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 7

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 1:36:09 PM

Canoerebel

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I hope this story might interest you guys.

Six years ago I interviewed George L. Smith, a former Georgia supreme court justice, speaker of the house, and lieutenant governor.� During World War II, he was a 90-day-wonder�(a farm boy who went to the Navy school in Chicago and emerged as an officer) in charge of the gun crew serving on a merchantman on the Murmansk convoys.

Smith's gunnery crews were at action stations at dawn and at dusk, when German subs and aircraft were mostly likely to attack.� The ship came under attack numerous times and was sunk by bombers while at the dock in Archangel (it was repaired and refloated).�

One day, Smith learned that his men hadn't had lunch.� When he inquired why, they told him that the galley closed at noon, just before his crew stood down from action stations.� This had been going on for some time, the men explained.

Smith went to the galley and asked the cook to keep it open to serve his crew.� The cook, who was civilian, refused on the grounds that union rules permitted him to close the galley at noon.

Smith just looked at the guy in amazement, thinking, "You mean you're not going to feed the men who are here to protect you?"� So Smith said, "I have a pistol in my bunk.� I'm going down to get it.� If you don't have the galley open when I come back, I will shoot you."

The cook opened the galley and fed Smith's crew from then on.� But Smith said he never again walked on the deck alone at night.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 3/9/2013 1:37:48 PM >

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 1:43:09 PM

obvert

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Having worked in a few restaurants and been around kitchen crew and vindictive cooks, not sure I'd want to eat what came out of that gallery after noon! A subtle exchange of some privilege for the cook might have turned out better for their digestive health.

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Post #: 9

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 1:54:08 PM

Dixie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

The Queens, as were most liners were RMS. That makes them Royal Navy auxiliaries even in peacetime.

Not exactly, RMS means Royal Mail Ship. The only thing the RMS really qualified them for was the carriage of mail on behalf of the Royal Mail. Obviously most liners were transferred onto trooping duties, changing from RMS/SS to HMT for the duration of that duty.

In the case of other ships, it's a mixed bag. Most LSIs were, at least in name, commissioned vessels in the Royal Navy. But there were still exceptions, several LSIs were still flying the Red Duster during Op Torch and iirc at least one, Barpeta, was still civilian at the time of Operation Dracula (Rangoon Invasion). The vast majority of the other transports involved hauling supplies, MT vehicles and follow up troops (so AK/AP types) were also merchant navy rather than RN or RFA. There would be military personnel on board British ships but afaik for the most part they were gunners for the defensive armament rather than actual ship crew.

In fact, even the BPF Fleet Train was made up of a mix of Royal Navy, Commonwealth Naval, RFA and fully civilian ships.

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 2:29:45 PM

Chickenboy

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In reading Clay Blair's voluminous Hitler's U-boat War (volumes 1 and 2) he spends some time reviewing the engagement orders of the Kriegsmarine. Earlier on, when the U-boats held some vague sense of discrimination, ships were considered fair game if they:

1. Flew the flags of hostile foreign powers (e.g., France or GB)
2. Were armed
3. Sailed in convoy
4. Sailed with lights out or zigzagged
5. Refused to stand to and be boarded by U-boat inspection teams
6. Were found to be carrying 'contraband' for the Allied war effort

Later, additional rules regarding capture of the Captain and first engineer, allowing time for the crew to evacuate before sinking the ship, the requirement of the submarine to surface (versus sinking the ship unannounced) and unlimited warfare in certain geographical 'boxes' were implemented and repeatedly changed.

Military ships were consistently attacked without warning. However the definition of 'military ship' changed. Obviously, battleships, destroyers, and their ilk were always fair game to be attacked without warning. However, the definition of "troopship" changed over the course of the conflict-which, early in the war, lead to several sinkings with large numbers of civilian casualties. Eventually, it encompassed pretty much everything remotely close to GB/UK/Northern Africa/Brazil/East coast CONUS.

The Germans wouldn't discriminate which of the crew was civilian versus military per se. See rules 1-6 above. They recognized that many (most?) of these ships sailing mid-late war were, in fact, a mix of BOTH military and civilian crew-the former for the guns / ship defenses, the latter for the operation of the crew per se. That didn't make any difference. As far as the Kriegsmarine was concerned, they were all legitimate targets.

After the war, the Allies tried Donitz for all manner of 'war crimes' involving the manner in which U-boats engaged ships. He (and the Kriegsmarine) were exonerated for the vast majority of these alleged war crimes.

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 2:45:55 PM

Dixie

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I believe Doenitz was exonerated after several RN witnesses stated that they were operating under more or less the same rules of engagement themselves.

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 3:19:58 PM

Symon

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From: De Eye-lands, Mon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I'm having a dispute with a friend on this one. He contends that AK's (ALL) and AP's (all) are merchant crewed. I feel that a significant number were USN or USCG crewed. Like ALL AP's. Otherwise how could you possibly use them to invade a beach head? We got into this a little with the AKL's used as pickets. I really think that this is a subject we should explore, and hear from the developers. Any thoughts?

For the USN:

All AKL, AK, and AP (and AKA and APA) are commissioned naval auxiliary vessels (like AOs, AE, ASs, ADs, etc..) They are commanded by naval officers and crewed by naval ratings.
Typical C2/C3 AP (APA) complement, 30 officers, 25 CPO, 450 enlisted.
Typical C2/C3 AK (AKA) complement, 25 officers, 20 CPO, 325 enlisted.

An �x� in front (xAK, xAP, xAKL) is a merchant vessel, officered by a merchant master, mates, and engineers, and crewed by civilians (certified mariners, able and ordinary seamen). Some (the larger) xAPs had masters, mates, and engineers that also had rank in the Naval Reserve. Larger �x� types might have a naval contingent to operate the guns.
Typical C1, C2, EC2, VC2, xAK complement, 8-12 �officers�, 30-40 seamen.

Dixie did the Commonwealth.

Japan is a whole other story.

[correction] One of the two AKL classes, Camano FS, were US Army Freight/Supply vessels. Not commissioned and manned by USCG.

< Message edited by Symon -- 3/9/2013 4:24:56 PM >

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 5:00:38 PM

Chris H

Posts: 2874
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From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Every American AP I can find in a cursory look had a Navy crew and were commissioned vessels. Some non-US APs, such as Queen Elizabeth, retianed at least some civilian crew such as the master.

The Queens, as were most liners were RMS. That makes them Royal Navy auxiliaries even in peacetime.

If the issue is confined to the US forces I think you're safe to claim all had Navy crews. From what I could find fast it became even more moot in 1943 as all or most APs converted to APAs, which were without a doubt USN ships.

But even with civilian crews troopships were valid targets of war. I know there's this presumption around the forum that if the crews were civilain they could refuse to do anything dangerous, but in reality that didn't happen. Civilian, union sailors crewed the merchant marine and were in the war. If such a ship had been ordered by the Navy to do picket duty, which would have been a legal order on the ship as it had been requisitioned by the government, any individual crewman could have refused to go and gotten off with no military justice falling on him. He might have gotten wet, or found himself on a sandy beach somewhere, but he could get off. In reality I don't think that would have happened for patriotic and peer pressure reasons.

In WW2 the merchant navy lost close to 30,000 seamen, while Royal Navy lost 50,000. Although technically they could have gotten off it would have been pointless as they would all have been conscripted/drafted (if in Allied waters) and sent back to sea with worse pay.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 14

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 5:07:25 PM

Symon

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The Japanese transport fleet was primarily a merchant fleet, thus, the vast majority of Japanese ships are �x� types. Some xAKs have the ability to convert to AKs, in order to maintain some load/unload bonus capability after the bonus period expires.

The Japanese paradigm was to designate and outfit certain merchant ships as �landing craft carriers�. These were not necessarily IJN vessels, rather they were controlled by the IJA. They were still manned by their merchant crews, as were all Japanese transports (excepting specific auxiliaries, such as Soya, and the like).

�Landing craft carriers� carried all the daihatsus for a landing, and each also carried a Ship Eng Coy (or detachment) to operate them. LCCs were part of each invasion TF and provided the landing craft (and operators) for unloading the other ships.

The �other� ships were from the Japanese merchant marine who were pressed into transport duty and were supposed to go back into merchant service, but many of which didn�t and ended up on the beach, on Guadalcanal, still painted in their merchant colors, and still manned by their civilian crews that didn�t qualify for Army rations and so were left to fend for themselves; i.e., find a friend or starve.

The Japanese ships that convert to AKs attempts to model the LCC paradigm.

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 5:39:15 PM

Symon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H
If the issue is confined to the US forces I think you're safe to claim all had Navy crews. From what I could find fast it became even more moot in 1943 as all or most APs converted to APAs, which were without a doubt USN ships.

Moot in 1941 (heck, it was moot in 1927). An AP/AK was a naval vessel. An 'x' was not. APs/AKs were simply "redesignated" APAs/AKAs in 1943. Early APs/AKs had an ecclectic mix of boats, booms, and bears, oh my. Standardization happened for vessels in build, and existing ships were brought up to "standard'. Many existing AP/AK ships were already close to the "standard", so they were simply "redesignated" APA/AKA.

Those that weren't close and had characteristics that couldn't fit the "attack" bill were left as simple AP/AKs but were nonetheless carried on the Navy Register.

In other words, an early war AP = a later war APA; an early war AK = a later war AKA. Don't know how much more specific I can get.

JWE

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 5:56:31 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

In WW2 the merchant navy lost close to 30,000 seamen, while Royal Navy lost 50,000. Although technically they could have gotten off it would have been pointless as they would all have been conscripted/drafted (if in Allied waters) and sent back to sea with worse pay.

If they had quit in mass numbers I agree with you. But individually the merchant marine averaged above draft age. The status, pay, and benefits post-war of the US merchant marine in a long, complex story. Many spokespeople for the wartime MM wanted veterans benefits, but Congress never fully agreed.

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 6:03:21 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

In WW2 the merchant navy lost close to 30,000 seamen, while Royal Navy lost 50,000. Although technically they could have gotten off it would have been pointless as they would all have been conscripted/drafted (if in Allied waters) and sent back to sea with worse pay.

If they had quit in mass numbers I agree with you. But individually the merchant marine averaged above draft age. The status, pay, and benefits post-war of the US merchant marine in a long, complex story. Many spokespeople for the wartime MM wanted veterans benefits, but Congress never fully agreed.

Draft age was up to 50 if the "draftee" had "necessary skills". Doctors,dentist,engineers, even accountants were called. I don't think they would have any problem hauling in merchant sailors if needed.

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/9/2013 6:24:43 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

In WW2 the merchant navy lost close to 30,000 seamen, while Royal Navy lost 50,000. Although technically they could have gotten off it would have been pointless as they would all have been conscripted/drafted (if in Allied waters) and sent back to sea with worse pay.

If they had quit in mass numbers I agree with you. But individually the merchant marine averaged above draft age. The status, pay, and benefits post-war of the US merchant marine in a long, complex story. Many spokespeople for the wartime MM wanted veterans benefits, but Congress never fully agreed.

Draft age was up to 50 if the "draftee" had "necessary skills". Doctors,dentist,engineers, even accountants were called. I don't think they would have any problem hauling in merchant sailors if needed.

The war-era courts being how they were you're probably right. But the classes you name were not sent into combat en masse. The MM was. A 50-YO MM sailor wold have had a strong argument in court that he was incapable of fulfilling the order.

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/10/2013 4:32:56 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Every American AP I can find in a cursory look had a Navy crew and were commissioned vessels. Some non-US APs, such as Queen Elizabeth, retianed at least some civilian crew such as the master.

The Queens, as were most liners were RMS. That makes them Royal Navy auxiliaries even in peacetime.

If the issue is confined to the US forces I think you're safe to claim all had Navy crews. From what I could find fast it became even more moot in 1943 as all or most APs converted to APAs, which were without a doubt USN ships.

But even with civilian crews troopships were valid targets of war. I know there's this presumption around the forum that if the crews were civilain they could refuse to do anything dangerous, but in reality that didn't happen. Civilian, union sailors crewed the merchant marine and were in the war. If such a ship had been ordered by the Navy to do picket duty, which would have been a legal order on the ship as it had been requisitioned by the government, any individual crewman could have refused to go and gotten off with no military justice falling on him. He might have gotten wet, or found himself on a sandy beach somewhere, but he could get off. In reality I don't think that would have happened for patriotic and peer pressure reasons.

Nope, not quite. When a civilian crewed merchant ship leaves the US bound for any overseas destination, the crew is on foreign articles and are bound to the ship until that ship returns to an American port. So merchant crews at sea could not refuse to go where the ship was ordered to go. Even in peacetime leaving a ship without permission in a foreign port will cause you to be brought up before the Coast Guard and they can suspend a sailor's seaman's papers. There are restrictions about sending a merchant ship into a war zone but in wartime once at sea merchant seamen don't get much say. I was on a ship that carried tanks to Beruit in 1983. Nobody asked my permission before we went there. And that was not a pleasant place to be in 1983. I don't think merchant sailors were ever forced to take a job on a ship during WWII but then those that did not ship out were subject to being drafted into the army. Aside from the marines, no other service lost more men per capita that the US Merchant Marine did in WWII. Once on foreign articles, they were committed.

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/10/2013 3:30:53 PM

Blackhorse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Every American AP I can find in a cursory look had a Navy crew and were commissioned vessels. Some non-US APs, such as Queen Elizabeth, retianed at least some civilian crew such as the master.

The Queens, as were most liners were RMS. That makes them Royal Navy auxiliaries even in peacetime.

If the issue is confined to the US forces I think you're safe to claim all had Navy crews. From what I could find fast it became even more moot in 1943 as all or most APs converted to APAs, which were without a doubt USN ships.

But even with civilian crews troopships were valid targets of war. I know there's this presumption around the forum that if the crews were civilain they could refuse to do anything dangerous, but in reality that didn't happen. Civilian, union sailors crewed the merchant marine and were in the war. If such a ship had been ordered by the Navy to do picket duty, which would have been a legal order on the ship as it had been requisitioned by the government, any individual crewman could have refused to go and gotten off with no military justice falling on him. He might have gotten wet, or found himself on a sandy beach somewhere, but he could get off. In reality I don't think that would have happened for patriotic and peer pressure reasons.

Nope, not quite. When a civilian crewed merchant ship leaves the US bound for any overseas destination, the crew is on foreign articles and are bound to the ship until that ship returns to an American port. So merchant crews at sea could not refuse to go where the ship was ordered to go. Even in peacetime leaving a ship without permission in a foreign port will cause you to be brought up before the Coast Guard and they can suspend a sailor's seaman's papers. There are restrictions about sending a merchant ship into a war zone but in wartime once at sea merchant seamen don't get much say. I was on a ship that carried tanks to Beruit in 1983. Nobody asked my permission before we went there. And that was not a pleasant place to be in 1983. I don't think merchant sailors were ever forced to take a job on a ship during WWII but then those that did not ship out were subject to being drafted into the army. Aside from the marines, no other service lost more men per capita that the US Merchant Marine did in WWII. Once on foreign articles, they were committed.

Within the US government there was a lot of discussion about 'navalizing' the US-flagged Merchant Marine, and making it, and the mariners, part of the navy. Eventually, the government opted to retain the civilian structure, but only after the carriers (companies) and unions agreed to certain ground rules. One of those rules covered the draft. So long as a merchant seaman retained his good standing he was exempt from the draft. And, as a civilian, he could not be forced to sail on any particular ship/route. But if he declined two offers to sail, he had to take the next offer, whatever it was, else have his name put before the draft board.

In theory, this could have led to situations where not enough merchant seamen volunteered to crew ships on dangerous routes. In practice it did not work out that way. For one thing, civilian mariners did not get paid unless they were at sea, so there was tremendous economic pressure to take the first available gig, wherever the vessel was going. Peer pressure and latent patriotism were undoubtably factors as well.

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Post #: 21

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/10/2013 5:54:02 PM

msieving1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

I believe Doenitz was exonerated after several RN witnesses stated that they were operating under more or less the same rules of engagement themselves.

Not exactly. The Tribunal ruled that in ordering that survivors of sunken ships should not be rescued, Doenitz was guilty of a war crime, but "In view of ... the answers to interrogatories by Admiral Chester Nimitz stating unrestricted submarine warfare was carried on in the Pacific Ocean by the United States from the first day of the Pacific War, the sentence of D�nitz is not assessed on the ground of his breaches of the international law of submarine warfare."

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Post #: 22

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/10/2013 7:16:02 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Nope, not quite. When a civilian crewed merchant ship leaves the US bound for any overseas destination, the crew is on foreign articles and are bound to the ship until that ship returns to an American port. So merchant crews at sea could not refuse to go where the ship was ordered to go. Even in peacetime leaving a ship without permission in a foreign port will cause you to be brought up before the Coast Guard and they can suspend a sailor's seaman's papers. There are restrictions about sending a merchant ship into a war zone but in wartime once at sea merchant seamen don't get much say. I was on a ship that carried tanks to Beruit in 1983. Nobody asked my permission before we went there. And that was not a pleasant place to be in 1983. I don't think merchant sailors were ever forced to take a job on a ship during WWII but then those that did not ship out were subject to being drafted into the army. Aside from the marines, no other service lost more men per capita that the US Merchant Marine did in WWII. Once on foreign articles, they were committed.

By "bound to the ship" here you refer to a civil issue, a potential breach of contract. A sailor could remove himself from the ship in a foreign port and have various penalties accrue, I agree. But he couldn't be shot for desertion as a USN sailor could be for the same action. That was my real point, not that MM sailors could hop on and off their ships with no ramifications to themselves.

On the casualty percentage you are correct when the numbers are presented at the level of USMC, MM, or USN. But the submarine service, a not insubstantial sub-service of the USN, had the highest casualty figures of the war, well above either the USMC or the MM.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/10/2013 7:17:22 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/10/2013 7:22:22 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 2151
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

I had a friend who was a river barge crewman on the Mississippi. He was in the merchant marine and essentially draftable in time of war.

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Post #: 24

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/10/2013 10:34:47 PM

crsutton

Posts: 6203
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Nope, not quite. When a civilian crewed merchant ship leaves the US bound for any overseas destination, the crew is on foreign articles and are bound to the ship until that ship returns to an American port. So merchant crews at sea could not refuse to go where the ship was ordered to go. Even in peacetime leaving a ship without permission in a foreign port will cause you to be brought up before the Coast Guard and they can suspend a sailor's seaman's papers. There are restrictions about sending a merchant ship into a war zone but in wartime once at sea merchant seamen don't get much say. I was on a ship that carried tanks to Beruit in 1983. Nobody asked my permission before we went there. And that was not a pleasant place to be in 1983. I don't think merchant sailors were ever forced to take a job on a ship during WWII but then those that did not ship out were subject to being drafted into the army. Aside from the marines, no other service lost more men per capita that the US Merchant Marine did in WWII. Once on foreign articles, they were committed.

By "bound to the ship" here you refer to a civil issue, a potential breach of contract. A sailor could remove himself from the ship in a foreign port and have various penalties accrue, I agree. But he couldn't be shot for desertion as a USN sailor could be for the same action. That was my real point, not that MM sailors could hop on and off their ships with no ramifications to themselves.

On the casualty percentage you are correct when the numbers are presented at the level of USMC, MM, or USN. But the submarine service, a not insubstantial sub-service of the USN, had the highest casualty figures of the war, well above either the USMC or the MM.

Yeah, I really do not know what the penalties for jumping ship during a major war. I doubt that they would be nice. In peacetime a first time offender usually grts off light-depending on the circumstances. The biggest problem is they then are ileaglly in a foreign country.

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/11/2013 12:44:34 AM

AW1Steve

Posts: 12018
Joined: 3/10/2007
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So if I understand correctly , AK's,AP's,AKL's, and AKV's, unless there is an x in the designation (such as xAK) for the USN is Naval manned (USN or USCG)? Many, many thanks.

Which solves my problem, but also emboldens me to again raise the "gamey question" about USN AKLs.

Sorry , I realize it's not reality JFB's object to. But the fact that thier pilots treat a single AKL as a CVTF. Still though, It does open some possibilities.

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/11/2013 1:15:34 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 6197
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Nope, not quite. When a civilian crewed merchant ship leaves the US bound for any overseas destination, the crew is on foreign articles and are bound to the ship until that ship returns to an American port. So merchant crews at sea could not refuse to go where the ship was ordered to go. Even in peacetime leaving a ship without permission in a foreign port will cause you to be brought up before the Coast Guard and they can suspend a sailor's seaman's papers. There are restrictions about sending a merchant ship into a war zone but in wartime once at sea merchant seamen don't get much say. I was on a ship that carried tanks to Beruit in 1983. Nobody asked my permission before we went there. And that was not a pleasant place to be in 1983. I don't think merchant sailors were ever forced to take a job on a ship during WWII but then those that did not ship out were subject to being drafted into the army. Aside from the marines, no other service lost more men per capita that the US Merchant Marine did in WWII. Once on foreign articles, they were committed.

By "bound to the ship" here you refer to a civil issue, a potential breach of contract. A sailor could remove himself from the ship in a foreign port and have various penalties accrue, I agree. But he couldn't be shot for desertion as a USN sailor could be for the same action. That was my real point, not that MM sailors could hop on and off their ships with no ramifications to themselves.

On the casualty percentage you are correct when the numbers are presented at the level of USMC, MM, or USN. But the submarine service, a not insubstantial sub-service of the USN, had the highest casualty figures of the war, well above either the USMC or the MM.

Yeah, I really do not know what the penalties for jumping ship during a major war. I doubt that they would be nice. In peacetime a first time offender usually grts off light-depending on the circumstances. The biggest problem is they then are ileaglly in a foreign country.

True. But the Brits wouldn't shoot them. Maybe some nice tea.

The USN wouldn't shoot a sailor either. (Eddie Slovik notwithstanding.) But Rocks and Shoals were no picnic in wartime.

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Post #: 27

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/11/2013 12:59:28 PM

Kereguelen

Posts: 1715
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

The Japanese transport fleet was primarily a merchant fleet, thus, the vast majority of Japanese ships are �x� types. Some xAKs have the ability to convert to AKs, in order to maintain some load/unload bonus capability after the bonus period expires.

The Japanese paradigm was to designate and outfit certain merchant ships as �landing craft carriers�. These were not necessarily IJN vessels, rather they were controlled by the IJA. They were still manned by their merchant crews, as were all Japanese transports (excepting specific auxiliaries, such as Soya, and the like).

�Landing craft carriers� carried all the daihatsus for a landing, and each also carried a Ship Eng Coy (or detachment) to operate them. LCCs were part of each invasion TF and provided the landing craft (and operators) for unloading the other ships.

The �other� ships were from the Japanese merchant marine who were pressed into transport duty and were supposed to go back into merchant service, but many of which didn�t and ended up on the beach, on Guadalcanal, still painted in their merchant colors, and still manned by their civilian crews that didn�t qualify for Army rations and so were left to fend for themselves; i.e., find a friend or starve.

The Japanese ships that convert to AKs attempts to model the LCC paradigm.

If I may add a little bit more to this:

There were some Japanese merchant ships requisistioned by the IJN that received a IJN Captain, but most retained their civilian master. Considering that by far most Japanese merchant ships were unarmed when the war started and only received armament later in the war (even some very valuable merchant ships only received their armament - often just one 12cm gun and a 7.7mm machine gun - in 1944), this made some sense. Merchant ships requisistioned by the IJA received army guns and a complement of soldiers to man them when these were available (field guns and AA guns).

The game has the armament of Japanese merchant ships early in the war quite wrong. Basically (with some exceptions) the ships that are rated as xPB's are the Japanese merchant ships that were armed in December 1941 (but some ships that participated in the initial operations had army guns).

Btw. it was not that the Japanese were too stupid to arm their merchies, they simply hadn't the guns (not even enough machine guns for basic AA defense) to do it.

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Post #: 28

RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/11/2013 2:26:49 PM

Zigurat666

Posts: 219
Joined: 9/26/2008
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Quote from AW1Steve: "Wouldn't you really be happier playing a nice game of Monopoly?"

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RE: What's the status of AP's and AK's? - 3/11/2013 3:46:14 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 12018
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666

Quote from AW1Steve: "Wouldn't you really be happier playing a nice game of Monopoly?"

There is a huge difference between the question "what is you opion or philosphy on particular point of play of the game" and "This game is rigged". I asked about a matter of play and technique. You basically say "what a peice of crap! WAHHHHHH!!!!!".

That's the major difference between you and me Ziggy. I'm a serious , dedicated player of WITP AE. And you simply want to whine about it. IF YOU ARE serious, then phrase your question AS a question. And act with some seriousness. You might not be a troll , but many would say your comments come across like one.

This game is imperfect. Most human created ventures are. Recognize that , respect the people who created and maintain this system without a great deal of compensation (or in some cases , none at all). Calling this game broken , rigged, or crap is an insult to them , and to those of us who admire and respect them.

NOW , if you truly are interested in improving the game, show some respect to the developers, think about and temper your words and convert them to observstions and suggestions. Be helpful. Or be gone. Serious comments and players have always been welcomed by Matrix, the developers and denizens of these forums. Trolls, or near trolls, not so much.

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Post #: 30