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Death to the Chinese Peasantry!

 
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Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 2:36:23 PM   
Miller


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Ground combat at Chengtu (75,41)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 299026 troops, 2860 guns, 2623 vehicles, Assault Value = 10544

Defending force 429945 troops, 1133 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 6185

Japanese adjusted assault: 8150

Allied adjusted defense: 3429

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Chengtu !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
21144 casualties reported
Squads: 32 destroyed, 2197 disabled
Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 99 disabled
Engineers: 7 destroyed, 247 disabled
Guns lost 126 (5 destroyed, 121 disabled)
Vehicles lost 88 (4 destroyed, 84 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
460041 casualties reported
Squads: 19885 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 32916 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 552 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1155 (1155 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 159


Assaulting units:
1st Division
58th Division
51st Division
26th Division
8th Division
65th Division
15th Division
29th Division
68th Division
23rd Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Division
40th Division
22nd Division
32nd Division
69th Division
39th Division
3rd Division
57th Division
60th Division
1st Tank Division
10th Division
116th Division
6th Division
64th Division
12th Division
35th Division
2nd Tank Division
11th Army
1st Mortar Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
13th Army
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
China Expeditionary Army
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
20th Ind. Engineer Regiment

Defending units:
42nd Chinese Corps
70th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
18th Chinese Corps
9th Separate Brigade
85th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
75th Chinese Corps
89th Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Cavalry Corps
28th Chinese Corps
96th Chinese Corps
86th Chinese Corps
87th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Corps
37th Chinese Corps
77th Chinese Corps
73rd Chinese Corps
47th Chinese Corps
68th Chinese Corps
44th Chinese Corps
35th Chinese Corps
55th Chinese Corps
71st Chinese Corps
24th Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
12th Chinese Corps
84th Chinese Corps
32nd Chinese Corps
22nd New Chinese Division
99th Chinese Corps
80th Chinese Corps
59th Chinese Corps
2nd Prov Chinese Corps
97th Chinese Corps
4th Chinese SNLF
3rd New Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
50th Chinese Corps
10th Chinese Corps
2nd Chinese Cavalry Corps
57th Chinese Corps
20th Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Corps
95th Chinese Corps
72nd Chinese Corps
38th Chinese Corps
3rd Chinese Corps
53rd Chinese Corps
45th Chinese Corps
41st Chinese Corps
30th Chinese Corps
29th Chinese Corps
94th Chinese Corps
55th Prov Chinese Division
36th Chinese Corps
79th Chinese Corps
1st New Chinese Corps
65th Chinese Corps
11th Chinese Corps
22nd Chinese Corps
16th Construction Regiment
9th Prov Chinese Corps
8th Chinese Corps
51st Chinese Corps
34th Chinese Corps
21st Chinese Corps
26th Chinese Corps
91st Chinese Corps
5th Construction Regiment
11th Chinese Base Force
25th Chinese Corps
Red Chinese Army
4th Group Army
20th Artillery Regiment
15th Chinese Base Force
2nd Group Army
1st Artillery Regiment
CAF HQ
303rd Brigade
13th Chinese Base Force
1st Chinese Base Force
7th New Chinese Corps
14th Group Army
49th Chinese Division
115th Red Chinese Division
China Command
90th Chinese Corps
6th War Area
31st Group Army
129th Red Chinese Division
33rd Group Army
37th Group Army
10th Group Army
49th Chinese Corps
8th Prov Chinese Corps
14th Chinese Corps
33rd Chinese Corps
5th Group Army
1st Group Army
98th Chinese Corps
1st War Area
46th Chinese Corps
27th Group Army
29th Group Army
4th Chinese Base Force
69th Chinese Corps
34th Group Army
36th Group Army
5th War Area
Y' Force
23rd Group Army
74th Chinese Corps
15th Group Army
7th Chinese Corps
22nd Artillery Regiment
43rd Chinese Corps
18th Group Army
57th AT Gun Regiment
2nd Chinese Base Force
32nd Group Army
30th Group Army
24th Group Army
19th Group Army
7th Group Army
39th Group Army
3rd Chinese Base Force
Lusu War Area
40th Chinese Corps
15th Chinese Corps
2nd Construction Regiment
2nd War Area
48th Chinese Corps
34th Separate Brigade
Central Reserve
93rd Chinese Division
38th Group Army
26th Group Army
60th Chinese Corps
100th Chinese Corps
78th Chinese Corps
22nd Group Army
120th Red Chinese Division
7th Chinese Base Force
20th Group Army
88th Chinese Corps
7th Artillery Regiment
58th Chinese Corps
76th Chinese Corps
25th Group Army
Jingcha War Area
2nd Chinese Corps
3rd Group Army
9th War Area
61st Chinese Corps
3rd War Area
3rd Chinese Cavalry Corps
8th Group Army
41st AA Regiment
Post #: 1
RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 2:48:25 PM   
nashvillen


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WOW

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 2:59:36 PM   
jeffk3510


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Wow.



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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 3:00:42 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Why?

(Who's on first.)

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 3:10:08 PM   
JocMeister

 

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OMG!

I´ll add this to the list of reasons why I will never play without stacking limits again!

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 3/8/2013 3:11:17 PM >


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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 3:15:39 PM   
Miller


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I don't want to come across as being boastful, we all know the Allies are toast in China and my opponent is pretty new to the game.

He sent everything to Chengtu for the last stand and it took months of continuous bombing and deliberate attacks to eventually take the base. Its a standard scn one game and the date is August 43.

< Message edited by Miller -- 3/8/2013 3:17:44 PM >

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 3:17:39 PM   
Canoerebel


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When your opponent is 89 years old, with wrinkles and sparse hair, he'll still remember this.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 3:28:08 PM   
dr.hal


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What about stacking limits???

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 3:42:18 PM   
Canoerebel


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Scenario 1 doesn't have stacking limits.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 3:53:58 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

Scenario 1 doesn't have stacking limits.


Incorrect. Any game can be changed over to include stacking limits. My Scenario 2 game did so in early '43. You just go to DBB website to get the PWHEX files that add stacking limits. They are available for both stock and extended maps.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 3:56:06 PM   
Canoerebel


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Okay, but no stacking limits in this particular game.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 4:00:41 PM   
crsutton


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Do you hold Chungking? If not, you know where most of those units will show up again in 30 days. But a nice coup. Your opponent could use a little advice....



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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 4:00:55 PM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Okay, but no stacking limits in this particular game.

So I see! Interesting. This adds a whole new level of surrealism to the game then! I'm using the stacking limits and find it great and very challenging. Keeping a hex close to the limit without going over takes practice. But in truth, the game is an abstraction of "reality" and as such increasing or decreasing that abstraction is a matter of taste.

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 3/10/2013 7:11:18 PM >

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 4:57:05 PM   
Cribtop


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...It's full of stars!

How many VPs for that?

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 3/8/2013 4:59:19 PM >


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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 5:07:03 PM   
Chickenboy


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4542 VPs by my reckoning...

Did that 'auto-vic' ya' Miller?

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 6:40:07 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

...It's full of stars!

How many VPs for that?


A 2001 A Space Odyssey reference?

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 7:38:17 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

...It's full of stars!

How many VPs for that?


A 2001 A Space Odyssey reference?


In ST: Generations, what was Kirk's final line as he was croaking off?

ETA: It was, "It was fun....Oh my..."

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 9:09:30 PM   
linrom

 

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You have to ask yourself "how is possible to design a game with such farcical outcome?" How is it possible to move 6 Inf Div from Manchuko and 2 Tank Div in 1943 and send 17 other divisions based all over China without causing severe garrison and manpower issues elsewhere.

Why, just send all these 25 divisions to walk all over India and Australasia? One could win the war of "silly VPs" without bothering with sea war and USA.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 10:18:47 PM   
Chickenboy


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Meh. Once the decision has been made to apply VPs to certain values-infantry squad, ships, airplanes and bases-then the myriad outcomes are out of the hands of the game designers. After all, one could win the war by the farsical outcome of an opponent scuttling all of their ships simultaneously. That's not the players fault if his opponent does something silly like that.

In this case, it was beyond silly for the OP's opponent to so stack that hex with Chinese units. He got what he had coming to him with the legendary defeat.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 10:27:19 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Meh. Once the decision has been made to apply VPs to certain values-infantry squad, ships, airplanes and bases-then the myriad outcomes are out of the hands of the game designers. After all, one could win the war by the farsical outcome of an opponent scuttling all of their ships simultaneously. That's not the players fault if his opponent does something silly like that.

In this case, it was beyond silly for the OP's opponent to so stack that hex with Chinese units. He got what he had coming to him with the legendary defeat.


You can't scuttle non-damaged ships. But I get your point.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 10:31:23 PM   
jcjordan

 

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Well if you think of typical chinese tactics in this time frame & into postwar, that's not much of an ahistorical loss after all they have how many millions of people to they have over everyone else? A true war of attrition if you've got the resources to handle it as well as the will. While I don't think CKS would as Stalin due to the tenuous hold on power he had.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/8/2013 10:59:18 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Well if you think of typical chinese tactics in this time frame & into postwar, that's not much of an ahistorical loss after all they have how many millions of people to they have over everyone else? A true war of attrition if you've got the resources to handle it as well as the will. While I don't think CKS would as Stalin due to the tenuous hold on power he had.


Was there another battle in which they lost half a million troops within a couple months?

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/9/2013 12:00:17 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Well if you think of typical chinese tactics in this time frame & into postwar, that's not much of an ahistorical loss after all they have how many millions of people to they have over everyone else? A true war of attrition if you've got the resources to handle it as well as the will. While I don't think CKS would as Stalin due to the tenuous hold on power he had.


Was there another battle in which they lost half a million troops within a couple months?


Not in a couple of months. But the Mongol invasion and the Yellow Turban Rebellion would be over that number in a longer period. The Civil War post-WWII as well. All three of these was in the multi-millions.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/9/2013 12:02:01 AM >


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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/9/2013 1:25:41 AM   
Miller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Do you hold Chungking? If not, you know where most of those units will show up again in 30 days. But a nice coup. Your opponent could use a little advice....




Yes, in fact every chinese base apart from the three far up in the north near the soviet border. My opponents main downfall was defending in the wrong terrain (anything less than 3x bonus is not worth defending) and retreating too early from the more defendable bases.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/9/2013 1:28:18 AM   
Miller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

4542 VPs by my reckoning...

Did that 'auto-vic' ya' Miller?


I am 42k to his 13k......do I need to be 3:1 ahead on 1 Jan 44 for that?

Bear in mind however I have barely touched his fleet, he has lost only a couple of CVEs......my warship losses amount to 1 DD......a phoney war in the pacific.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/9/2013 1:30:05 AM   
Miller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: linrom

You have to ask yourself "how is possible to design a game with such farcical outcome?" How is it possible to move 6 Inf Div from Manchuko and 2 Tank Div in 1943 and send 17 other divisions based all over China without causing severe garrison and manpower issues elsewhere.

Why, just send all these 25 divisions to walk all over India and Australasia? One could win the war of "silly VPs" without bothering with sea war and USA.



I have no interest in VPs......if there is an auto vic for me we will play on regardless.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/9/2013 2:46:20 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

4542 VPs by my reckoning...

Did that 'auto-vic' ya' Miller?


I am 42k to his 13k......do I need to be 3:1 ahead on 1 Jan 44 for that?

Bear in mind however I have barely touched his fleet, he has lost only a couple of CVEs......my warship losses amount to 1 DD......a phoney war in the pacific.


Yes. That's my read, Miller. You're at 3.23:1 now.

From the Manual (p. 265):

17.2 Automatic Victory: Once 365 days have been played in a scenario, there is a possibility that the game will end automatically in an automatic victory condition. If any of the following automatic victory criteria are met, the game will end immediately with the side that met the criteria winning a decisive victory (unless the A-bomb exception section 17.1.2) has been triggered.(some extraneous stuff omitted)

Automatic victory in 1943: In 1943, if one player has 4 times the VPs of the other, the game will end.

Automatic victory in 1944: In 1944, if one player has 3 times the victory points of the other, the game will end.




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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/9/2013 6:48:50 PM   
linrom

 

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No it has nothing to do with your opponent skill level. Other players have commented about the ease of China conquest also and were not able to hold it. There are many realism issues with this game and land combat in China is really screwed up.

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/9/2013 7:02:51 PM   
fcharton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: linrom
No it has nothing to do with your opponent skill level. Other players have commented about the ease of China conquest also and were not able to hold it. There are many realism issues with this game and land combat in China is really screwed up.


Is it because of land combat? The current model seems to do a good job:
- in open terrain, the chinese have no chance, as in history
- but they can hold their line in closed terrain, as in history
- yet they can't really mount a counterattack, and retake (and hold) cities, as in history

In my opinion the problem lies with the amount of control both players have on their troops. In the game, the IJA can muster all his forces for battle (save the Manchukuo garrison), and keep them fed (at a cost, but it is possible). On the other hand, the Allies hold all the Chinese units as one big cohesive army, which will eventually replace losses, get supplied from Burma, and grow into a juggernaut.

As a result, it is only sensible for the Japanese player to invest (this comes at a price in resources) and try to take out China, before the super-KMT attacks him. If he doesn't, the KMT will probably retake a large part of southern and central China by 1943.

This said, the conquest of China is possible in the game, but it is not easy. Against a competent Allied player, it might be impossible...

My two fens
Francois

< Message edited by fcharton -- 3/9/2013 7:05:19 PM >

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RE: Death to the Chinese Peasantry! - 3/10/2013 4:13:17 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Well if you think of typical chinese tactics in this time frame & into postwar, that's not much of an ahistorical loss after all they have how many millions of people to they have over everyone else? A true war of attrition if you've got the resources to handle it as well as the will. While I don't think CKS would as Stalin due to the tenuous hold on power he had.


Was there another battle in which they lost half a million troops within a couple months?



The destruction of Army Group Center. Oh wait, that was the Germans...Never mind.

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