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Defending Australia - 3/8/2013 2:27:07 AM   
Justus2


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When defending Australia, is it generally better to combine the various brigades into their divisions, at the major bases (Brisbane/Sydney/Melbourne etc, possibly looking at sending one to Perth), which could leave some of the smaller ports uncovered, or better to keep them broken down to cover more bases? It seems the combined divisions would be better able to hold the key bases, but I don't like the idea of leaving ports uncovered. But then again, a single brigade probably wouldn't stop a real invasion either.

PS Currently starting a new game vs AI, so I don't know how agressively the AI will go after Australia, but want to develop good habits for when I do take on a PBEM :)

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/8/2013 2:40:17 AM   
JeffK


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The AI will never try to invade OZ in the scen 1 version, Andy may have added it in some other scenarios.

Against a PBEM, work out what you need to defend and what assistance you have from US or British troops.
I dont think a single Division will help for very long, 2-3 need to be dug into the 2 major bases of Sydney & Melbourne to stop anything the JFB might bring.

IMHO, holding Darwin, West Aust or Nthn Queensland are not viable to hold against a serious invasion (I'm thinking 4-6 Divs plus), any troops based here will be speed humps as the JFB has too many options for you to cover.

You then see what sense the Brisbane Line was, here you start to have a chance to slow down, but I feel not stop, the invaders.

By the time the JFB gets to Newcastle/Adelaide he is strung out over usually long LOC and the AFB has the internal lines.

There will be hundreds of versions to this, depending on both the JFB & AFB commitment but I dont recall any succesful occupations of OZ, many JFB get to the threshhold but are forced (or think they are forced) to fall back and defend more important bases, like Iwo Jima, Paramushiro & Saipan etc.

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/8/2013 3:56:56 AM   
John 3rd


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I have taken all but Alice Springs in my game with Lew. Our date is August 21, 1942 and I shall have the final base of Australia by Sept 1st.

The only real way for the Japanese to take Australia is to grab Sydney or Melbourne EARLY. I landed and took Sydney in late-March 42. Rolled up the defense from there. Took 12 Inf Div to do it...



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RE: Defending Australia - 3/8/2013 3:58:15 AM   
John 3rd


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Read Racing the Sunrise AAR. I will make a quick note to bump it to the front of the AARs.


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RE: Defending Australia - 3/8/2013 4:08:07 AM   
JeffK


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I was assuming a scenarion something approaching reality

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/8/2013 5:02:57 AM   
crsutton


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You won't be able to cover every base. Best to keep a strong reserve somewhere that can react to an invasion. Divisions are always stronger than their broken down brigades.

If you really fear an invasion of Oz, I recommend that you move most every US tank unit you have to OZ. You will need other US units as well. It is the one place where mobile units truly rule. If India is not threatened then is is a good idea to move one or two strong tank brigades from there as well. If you out "mobile" the Japanese then you have a very good chance to defeat him in detail. Allied tanks are so much better than Japanese.

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/8/2013 7:21:07 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I have taken all but Alice Springs in my game with Lew. Our date is August 21, 1942 and I shall have the final base of Australia by Sept 1st.

The only real way for the Japanese to take Australia is to grab Sydney or Melbourne EARLY. I landed and took Sydney in late-March 42. Rolled up the defense from there. Took 12 Inf Div to do it...





how would one have 12 Inf Div in March 12? Is this a fantasy scenario?

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/8/2013 2:12:37 PM   
Justus2


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Thanks for all the feedback. I understand that if the IJN brings the kitchen sink (KB + 4-6 div) they can probably take just about anywhere, I guess I am looking for some ideas of how to hold some of these places (Brisbane, Perth, maybe even Townsville) against a lesser assault, so they can't take them on the cheap. I like the idea of a mobile reserve/counterattack force, Aussies start with several tank/cav units, and it does make sense to send my US ones there.

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/8/2013 4:16:46 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2

Thanks for all the feedback. I understand that if the IJN brings the kitchen sink (KB + 4-6 div) they can probably take just about anywhere, I guess I am looking for some ideas of how to hold some of these places (Brisbane, Perth, maybe even Townsville) against a lesser assault, so they can't take them on the cheap. I like the idea of a mobile reserve/counterattack force, Aussies start with several tank/cav units, and it does make sense to send my US ones there.


To me it does. It is difficult to defeat a determined Japanese attack at one point until mid 1943 if your opponent knows what he is doing. Just because some Japanese top guns have taken OZ out does not mean that it is easy to do or can't be stopped by good Allied play. A big Japanese attack requires a big commitment of resources so the best Allied counter sometimes is to attack him elsewhere where he is vulnerable. Force him to divert some attention. It all depends.


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RE: Defending Australia - 3/9/2013 5:26:43 AM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I have taken all but Alice Springs in my game with Lew. Our date is August 21, 1942 and I shall have the final base of Australia by Sept 1st.

The only real way for the Japanese to take Australia is to grab Sydney or Melbourne EARLY. I landed and took Sydney in late-March 42. Rolled up the defense from there. Took 12 Inf Div to do it...





how would one have 12 Inf Div in March 12? Is this a fantasy scenario?



Was THAT sarcasm Jeff???

RA has very little work done to the IJA. Navy is made to be more powerful in late-42/1943. It sits squarely between Scenario 1 and 2. I landed with 5 ID on the sides of Sydney, used Paras to occupy the base west of it, and then took the town. After that more troops were fed in over the next couple of months as the Philippines fell and Singapore collapsed. Any JFB interested should read the AAR. Course Lew made a major mistake by deploying two full Aussie ID in the NW above Tennant Creek so they were WAY out of position.

This is a good lesson for an Allied player in Australia to be very careful over committing to any one area of the continent. My .02...


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RE: Defending Australia - 3/9/2013 6:37:32 PM   
linrom

 

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This and the other topic on easy China conquest sound like some fantasy game. In the real world Japan has to send ALL divisions it can spare form China and even Manchuko to the Solomons and New Guinea. Japan needs to reinforce 33rd and 55rd in Burma. The rest of IJA needs to stay put as garrison troops. Japan even needs to send in troops to Indochina(not modeled in this game.)There are no 5-6 extra divisions available to IJA.


The game became completely unplayable once all the patches and betas came out. Try the original WitPAE, IJA has barely enough troops to hold on to Canton---in response to HK invasion, China attacked Canton. To relieve pressure on HK invasion, IJA proceeded to attack Changsa with 3 div and a regiment--they got mauled. IJA tried the same thing in Chandgu, they gassed 300k civilians but ended up withdrawing and lost the city. In the North, the communists never allowed IJA to control any province that they did not hold in 1941.

IJA had two successful battles in China: invasion of the coastal areas by 11th and 13th Army in response to Doolittle raid and Ichi-go in 1944 when the Nationalists and Communists were getting ready for the Civil War.

This game has some serious realism issues.

< Message edited by linrom -- 3/9/2013 6:51:44 PM >

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/9/2013 10:19:20 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: linrom

This game has some serious realism issues.


It's a game.

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/10/2013 10:45:49 AM   
DivePac88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: linrom

This and the other topic on easy China conquest sound like some fantasy game. In the real world Japan has to send ALL divisions it can spare form China and even Manchuko to the Solomons and New Guinea. Japan needs to reinforce 33rd and 55rd in Burma. The rest of IJA needs to stay put as garrison troops. Japan even needs to send in troops to Indochina(not modeled in this game.)There are no 5-6 extra divisions available to IJA.


The game became completely unplayable once all the patches and betas came out. Try the original WitPAE, IJA has barely enough troops to hold on to Canton---in response to HK invasion, China attacked Canton. To relieve pressure on HK invasion, IJA proceeded to attack Changsa with 3 div and a regiment--they got mauled. IJA tried the same thing in Chandgu, they gassed 300k civilians but ended up withdrawing and lost the city. In the North, the communists never allowed IJA to control any province that they did not hold in 1941.

IJA had two successful battles in China: invasion of the coastal areas by 11th and 13th Army in response to Doolittle raid and Ichi-go in 1944 when the Nationalists and Communists were getting ready for the Civil War.

This game has some serious realism issues.


You're a bit of a different fish aren't you, and I was going to post a long winded counter to your tirade of this game. Then I read your post again, and realized that this game is probably just beyond you. That what you really mean by realism, is that the game is just too complex for you. So I would suggest that maybe you go back to a simpler tactical game, probably about platoon level.

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/10/2013 2:58:13 PM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: linrom

This and the other topic on easy China conquest sound like some fantasy game. In the real world Japan has to send ALL divisions it can spare form China and even Manchuko to the Solomons and New Guinea. Japan needs to reinforce 33rd and 55rd in Burma. The rest of IJA needs to stay put as garrison troops. Japan even needs to send in troops to Indochina(not modeled in this game.)There are no 5-6 extra divisions available to IJA.


The game became completely unplayable once all the patches and betas came out. Try the original WitPAE, IJA has barely enough troops to hold on to Canton---in response to HK invasion, China attacked Canton. To relieve pressure on HK invasion, IJA proceeded to attack Changsa with 3 div and a regiment--they got mauled. IJA tried the same thing in Chandgu, they gassed 300k civilians but ended up withdrawing and lost the city. In the North, the communists never allowed IJA to control any province that they did not hold in 1941.

IJA had two successful battles in China: invasion of the coastal areas by 11th and 13th Army in response to Doolittle raid and Ichi-go in 1944 when the Nationalists and Communists were getting ready for the Civil War.

This game has some serious realism issues.


I agree that AE -- like any game -- has realism issues. But AE has fewer issues than most games.

Of AE's three-legged air-land-sea stool, the land leg is definitely the wobbliest. Where land and sea interface, such as amphibious invasions, IMHO you won't find a better simulation than AE. For overland campaigns (China, Russia) or campaigns where strategic mobility and logistics would have been an issue (India, Australia) the original AE game design does make it possible to do things in game that the Japanese could not have done historically.

To me, one of the beautiful and righteous (see my sig, below) aspects of AE is the veritable swarm of modders - and MichaelM's tireless work on Beta patches - working to address and fix errors from the first release, and find patches or workarounds for game engine or game design shortcomings.

So if you agree, as many of us do, that the IJA has too easy of a time in China, there is a patch for that. Download the patch that imposes maximum troop size limits on all hexes, not just islands, and you'll discover that the balance in China shifts back to the defender.




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RE: Defending Australia - 3/10/2013 5:46:48 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

I agree that AE -- like any game -- has realism issues. But AE has fewer issues than most games.


I'd just like to add, that as much as you can make this game realistic, it will never be played realistically.

My apologies to Justus2, I got confused as to whose thread this was. My previous comment was directed at linrom, which I've edited for obvious reasons.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 3/10/2013 8:03:48 PM >


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RE: Defending Australia - 3/10/2013 7:09:32 PM   
dr.hal


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One facet of reality that is difficult to model is politics. For example I don't know of any "real life" scenario in which the British would voluntarily give up Singapore. Yet many players cut and run, taking the best units with them in the hopes of fighting again on better terms. Yes of course there are PPs to pay, but that really doesn't get to the heart of politics, the intangible aspects such as pride, psyche, and simply not "thinking" of such an alternative. No UK government would have survived a vote in the house of commons if such a move was contemplated let alone taken action on! So in some respects the game is unrealistic but that makes it fun and of value. Could the British do more with the troops from Singapore if place somewhere else rather than populate Japanese slave labor camps? So many "ifs" so little time!

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/10/2013 7:24:57 PM   
Q-Ball


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RE: Australia, though John 3rd took it in his AAR, his opponent made several critical errors that allowed that to happen. Against decent Allied play, Australia is un-takeable IMO.

Now, crsutton correctly points out that certain areas are indefensible, like Northern Oz, NE Oz, actually pretty much any hex above Brisbane. But a couple simple steps can safeguard Sydney at a minimum:

1. Starting December 1941, move US troops to Australia. Prioritize it, even before Fiji or New Caledonia. Start with base forces, a tank unit or two, some Marines...you can scrape up some stuff in December to send.

2. Start digging forts in Sydney, and send at least 2 divisions there. Maybe more. Melbourne, start digging. I would combine all the Australian Militia units you can.

3. There are a number of Australian CD units. Place them in some spots like Albany, Newcastle, clear hexes near major targets

4. Starting Dec 7th, load any spare ship you have at US West coast with Supplies, and move supplies/fuel to Oz. Turn off the Heavy Industry. You can also load a convoy at Cape Town for Oz. Also load all the fuel you can get out of DEI and take to Perth. You may only have a couple months, so get what you can there.

I think the 6th or 7th Australian Divisions, maybe both, can be diverted to India. This requires a backfill, though, with some US forces

There is no reason not to start sending US troops right away, because even if your opponent does not invade Oz, it's a great launching point anyway for counterattacks. You may as well get started early.

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/10/2013 9:36:17 PM   
John 3rd


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I agree with Q-Ball in all respects to his Post above. Lew made critical errors with his defense. His (Q-Ball) defensive comments are well thought out.

The whole 'what's feasible' discussion is pertinent: It truly relies on the player and what THEY think is feasible. In my current game with Dan, through great effort, I have taken central China. COULD I go further? YES! Will I? No---It isn't realistic. I am controlling/governing my own actions here. Abusing the game is easy. It is up to the players to NOT abuse/exploit the game


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RE: Defending Australia - 3/10/2013 9:45:46 PM   
Justus2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

RE: Australia, though John 3rd took it in his AAR, his opponent made several critical errors that allowed that to happen. Against decent Allied play, Australia is un-takeable IMO.

Now, crsutton correctly points out that certain areas are indefensible, like Northern Oz, NE Oz, actually pretty much any hex above Brisbane. But a couple simple steps can safeguard Sydney at a minimum:

1. Starting December 1941, move US troops to Australia. Prioritize it, even before Fiji or New Caledonia. Start with base forces, a tank unit or two, some Marines...you can scrape up some stuff in December to send.

2. Start digging forts in Sydney, and send at least 2 divisions there. Maybe more. Melbourne, start digging. I would combine all the Australian Militia units you can.

3. There are a number of Australian CD units. Place them in some spots like Albany, Newcastle, clear hexes near major targets

4. Starting Dec 7th, load any spare ship you have at US West coast with Supplies, and move supplies/fuel to Oz. Turn off the Heavy Industry. You can also load a convoy at Cape Town for Oz. Also load all the fuel you can get out of DEI and take to Perth. You may only have a couple months, so get what you can there.

I think the 6th or 7th Australian Divisions, maybe both, can be diverted to India. This requires a backfill, though, with some US forces

There is no reason not to start sending US troops right away, because even if your opponent does not invade Oz, it's a great launching point anyway for counterattacks. You may as well get started early.


Thanks, I usually try to get at least a couple base force/engineer units and the II Ftr HQ headed to Australia early, I will have to look at some tank units, makes sense that that's a good place for them. I am looking at combining the divisions at major ports, I am planning on shifting one to Perth but the others will cover the major SE cities, with the independent Cav brigades covering the smaller ports in between. I see a lot of people saying NE Oz is untenable, I had planned on trying to build up Townsville (probably because it is so important when I played the Guadacanal scenario), is it that much at risk?

I guess it comes down to the IJ can take almost anywhere it wants, but it cant take everywhere, if I strengthen Perth and Townsville (and Darwin gets some DEI refugees) he can probably take 2 of the three, but I'm hoping not to give all of it away, if that makes sense. (Of course, against the AI it seems I don't have to worry too much, but I want to get good habits early).

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/10/2013 11:29:18 PM   
aoffen

 

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In my view you can't defend Townsville, Darwin or even Perth if the Japanese player is willing to commit the resources to take it. You can however make it a hard enough target that he can't take it cheaply and has to commit to a major effort to capture it. I spent months building Darwin up with DEI refugees, Australian and even some British infantry. All was swept aside when KB and a few IJA divisions++ turned up and wanted in.

Interestingly some time later, after the major Japanese combat units had withdrawn, I tried a land campaign to recapture the place and failed. I just could not supply a major combat force up that road from Alice Springs. I tried everything - built up bases, deployed all manner of HQ's, but there was just not enough pull to keep the combat units fed and fuelled. Its now July '44 and Darwin is still Japanese. I have Timor and am pushing in the DEI but have decided to bypass it for the moment. A politically unacceptable tactic I am sure.

Regards
Andrew

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RE: Defending Australia - 3/11/2013 6:14:56 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aoffen

In my view you can't defend Townsville, Darwin or even Perth if the Japanese player is willing to commit the resources to take it. You can however make it a hard enough target that he can't take it cheaply and has to commit to a major effort to capture it. I spent months building Darwin up with DEI refugees, Australian and even some British infantry. All was swept aside when KB and a few IJA divisions++ turned up and wanted in.

Interestingly some time later, after the major Japanese combat units had withdrawn, I tried a land campaign to recapture the place and failed. I just could not supply a major combat force up that road from Alice Springs. I tried everything - built up bases, deployed all manner of HQ's, but there was just not enough pull to keep the combat units fed and fuelled. Its now July '44 and Darwin is still Japanese. I have Timor and am pushing in the DEI but have decided to bypass it for the moment. A politically unacceptable tactic I am sure.

Regards
Andrew


Yep, I found this out the hard way as well. If Japan can contest the seas around Northern OZ then the Allies cannot take it back if it is defended in enough strength. The supply just will not flow. Japan suffers the same limitations if they try to advance past Tennant Creek or so. Unless the Japanese garrison is weak the Allies have to retake Darwin by sea. For this reason, I think it is a good idea for Japan to always move into N. OZ. The real trick is when to evacuate...

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