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Conundrum for AGS in 41

 
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Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/7/2013 2:35:32 PM   
vandev

 

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I have played a couple of 41 campaigns as the Axis. Even had some success. But I have seen one common problem in all my games. This problem is the Kharkov/Stalino dilemna. One factor in this problem is pz 2 of AGC is very focused on taking moscow and normally passes briansk on the north side. Additionally, AGS has 3 panzer corp only, it is not reinforced.

The basic issue for AGS is that as we cross the dnieper, what do we do with pg 1? If we launch the panzers at Kharkov we can take the city and surge north to kursk to link up with AGC and shorten the front lines. However, if we do this the drive on Stalino is infantry only and can and has stalled out short of its objective. One fix would be a snow offensive before blizzard to take the area and drive to the sea of azov, but this is no guarantee.

Or we face the reverse issue, pz1 leads the way to Stalino and takes the area but the drive north to Kharkov and the strategic link up to AGC fails because infantry cannot advance fast enough by itself. This problem could also maybe be solved by a snow offensive.

In the games I have played, I chose to link up with AGC and therefore, stalled infront of Stalino. What do folks think is the right thing to do? One last point is that AGS is starved for infantry as well because all reiforcements seem to go to AGN.

Vandev
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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/7/2013 4:50:32 PM   
SigUp

 

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Well, I play against the AI only, so I decline to do the Lvov opener. But nevertheless I always reinforce PzGrp 1 with XXXXVI Panzer Corps of PzGrp 2, as the Ukraine is the ideal playground for motorized forces. Additionally you have more options with four Panzer Corps. For example after crossing the Dnepr you can choose to go with three Panzer Corps towards your primary objective and attach the other one to a "regular" army and pursue the other objective. That way Stalino and the linkup with AGC should be possible. Additionally, if you are making quick progress in Leningrad you can consider turning PzGrp 2 south of Bryansk and insert PzGrp 4 north of it, creating a giant panzer fist that will drive towards Moscow in the snow.

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/7/2013 6:28:00 PM   
HITMAN202


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An additional Pz Corp sent from AGS to AGC can be a game changer against a good Soviet opponent. Often times the pounding AGC takes leads to a complete breakdown with additional Pz units. But against a great Soviet player it's worthless. The best Ruskies will have established such a deep fort structure in front of Moscow by turns 12-14, that you'll find these mobile forces will bang their heads against granite.

Keeping Pz units in AGS will force the Soviets to withdraw further and when the Ruskies do finally stand fast, the Pz units can inflict some serious damage. In effect they enable a deeper push into the Donbass.

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/7/2013 11:25:21 PM   
sillyflower


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So, Hitman, your transfer last turn in our game of a Pz xxx from south to centre means what exactly??? No doubt it will take more time to tell

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/8/2013 3:31:09 PM   
HITMAN202


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If you would review my comments, transfer of Pz units from GS to GC only fails against the best Soviet players. :) :) :)

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/9/2013 5:25:38 AM   
von Runstedt


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It really depends on what you are planning for. If you are looking for good positions to hold out in for the winter it is best to turn the panzer corps south and take the Stalino area. This will give you excellent defense positions along the Mius River, or if you have sufficient time you can push on to take up positions along the Donetz and Lower Don. However, If you are looking to try to do economic/morale damage to the Soviet player it is best to angle towards Kharkov. Here I would detach Second Panzer to aid the drive. If you use the other Panzer/AGC forces to keep the defenders before Moscow occupied the drive through the Kharkov/Kursk/Orel/Tula region will encounter less resistance and you will still find yourself in ideal tank country and, once you've unhinged the Soviet position, can threaten an envelopment of Moscow region from the south. Any attempts by the Soviets to halt the advance here would likely necessitate weakening defenses immediately before Moscow making advances by AGC easier. This strategy is of course far more risky and really depends on how quickly you can get into position for the operation. I would say if you can be ready by mid August to begin the operation you have a good chance of success. If all goes well you can put the Soviet player in the awkward position of having a German formations deep behind their defense lines with the potential of an envelopment of the Moscow area. At the very least this move would force the Soviet player to pull back from more forward defenses of the Moscow area allowing you more options for shortening the front for the coming of winter. At best, depending on the skill of the Soviet player and the relative success of the panzer forces in the more rugged terrain north of Moscow it could force the Soviet player out of the area entirely or risk encirclement. The best case scenario again all depends on timing. It is the same kind of strategy the Germans attempted during operation Typhoon which ultimately failed because they attempted the move too late and found their panzer forces caught deep in enemy territory, in harsh winter conditions and with powerful Soviet units poised for a counter-attack.

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/10/2013 12:56:33 AM   
HITMAN202


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I would have agreed with a lot of your insight to potential Axis strategy prior to playing a team game against Sillyflower/Sean, but against elite Soviet players you just can't do a lot. I'm serious. Read Pelton's comments on Soviet '41 strategy.

1) Leningrad can be held. Against THEPROS (that's my monicker for them) I may take it; that's with a AGC Pz Corp and four elite infantry Corp leader replacements. I may take it.

2) I may get within 4-5 hexes of Moscow. On turn 9 I have a huge fist aimed at Moscow and it's a hex by hex slog. Reserve activation occurs at least 1/2 the time. Any exposed German divisions will get hurt by counterattacks.

3) In the south I assault empty hexes; the Soviets stay 4-6 hexes away. Yea, they will eventually be forced to stand fast and I will do some damage, but will I get close to Rostov ??? Dream on.

4) I may inflict 2.5-2.7 mill casualties by blizzard. Maybe. And destroyed divisions ??? Maybe 140. Probably less.

Granted, I'm not an elite German player but I can play and nothing is happening against THEPROS. They 1) build forts faster than I can believe, 2) form defense lines with strongpoints (the key) that can't be broached (hasty attacks are constantly frustrated by reserve activation) and 3) don't give my mobile force space to operate (yea in AGS to attack zippo.) Sillyflower says he and Sean have it down to a fine art. I'm a piece of wood that's getting carved up.

Oh by the way, I've played one blizzard. THEPROS are drooling. Read Pelton





< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 3/10/2013 12:58:27 AM >


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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/10/2013 4:55:33 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

If you would review my comments, transfer of Pz units from GS to GC only fails against the best Soviet players. :) :) :)


Hmmm. It also doesn't work against mediocre Russian players.
Oh dear. You do now realise you are going to lose to 2 mediocre Russians, and an Engishman and a Canuck to boot? Your poor ego.............................


< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/10/2013 5:16:04 PM >


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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/10/2013 5:21:10 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Sillyflower says he and Sean have it down to a fine art.


Sorry about that bit of boasting. We haven't really as we are still learning - unsurprising perhaps as this is only the 2nd game either of us has ever played



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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/12/2013 4:19:57 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

I would have agreed with a lot of your insight to potential Axis strategy prior to playing a team game against Sillyflower/Sean, but against elite Soviet players you just can't do a lot. I'm serious. Read Pelton's comments on Soviet '41 strategy.

1) Leningrad can be held. Against THEPROS (that's my monicker for them) I may take it; that's with a AGC Pz Corp and four elite infantry Corp leader replacements. I may take it.

2) I may get within 4-5 hexes of Moscow. On turn 9 I have a huge fist aimed at Moscow and it's a hex by hex slog. Reserve activation occurs at least 1/2 the time. Any exposed German divisions will get hurt by counterattacks.

3) In the south I assault empty hexes; the Soviets stay 4-6 hexes away. Yea, they will eventually be forced to stand fast and I will do some damage, but will I get close to Rostov ??? Dream on.

4) I may inflict 2.5-2.7 mill casualties by blizzard. Maybe. And destroyed divisions ??? Maybe 140. Probably less.

Granted, I'm not an elite German player but I can play and nothing is happening against THEPROS. They 1) build forts faster than I can believe, 2) form defense lines with strongpoints (the key) that can't be broached (hasty attacks are constantly frustrated by reserve activation) and 3) don't give my mobile force space to operate (yea in AGS to attack zippo.) Sillyflower says he and Sean have it down to a fine art. I'm a piece of wood that's getting carved up.

Oh by the way, I've played one blizzard. THEPROS are drooling. Read Pelton







Your as good as anyone Hitman, without the fuel exploits the "elite" players are just players now. The magic ( magic fairy fuel) is gone so to speak.

Its all about keeping morale as high as possible for as long as possible. Good SHC players don't lose more then 2.7 million men and hold Leningrad/Moscow and Rostov.

If you dont run like hell during blizzard you lose 20+ divisions and more importantly your infantry morale goes from mid 80's to mid 60's.

You can't move the lines in 42 and get very quickly ground down in 43 and game set match mid 44.

The game patches over the last 2 yrs were put in to stop the magic fuel exploits of which the "elite" players exploited now that they are gone the game is way out of balance.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/12/2013 4:23:13 AM >


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16 games ended in 41 (16-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)



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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/12/2013 7:57:57 PM   
HITMAN202


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Pelton, I am throwing a little chaff and humor at Sillyflower (who is a joy to banter with ... particularly since he's an Inselaffen lawyer and I a Red-neck physican) and Sean (the "Canuck" Sillyflower so maligned), AKA "Belphor".

The far-reaching Pz isolations you see in AAR after AAR are a thing of the past against skilled Soviets (though on turn 10 I did a small pocket near D-town against THEPROS ...that's why you keep a strong Pz force in AGS vandez) and I'm learning to slog it out against forts (13-16 infantry MP's are a killer ... gives you 2 attacks with some mobility ... so HQBUP's are now an infrequent tool of mine ... they cost you MP's ... and infantry corp leader replacements crucial ).

Pelton I agree with the blizzard retreat. You run like hell.



< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 3/12/2013 8:02:48 PM >


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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/13/2013 12:09:45 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Pelton I agree with the blizzard retreat. You run like hell.



I like your new girlie avatar below.




Just shows you are not a real redneck but a Yankee transplant.

and Sean is Belphegor ( you know why I can't let that go)

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/13/2013 12:29:57 AM >


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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/13/2013 3:30:44 PM   
HITMAN202


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That's not proper Sillyflower. Gentlemen (in the true British sense .... dignifed, well-educated, ... and respectful) don't hit (strike in British English) below the beltline, even if they are correct. It's easy to misspell (I will apologize to Sean), I am a transplant (my accent ... or rather lack of one ... would betray me) and to further add to your insults (I am making a list) that terrified tike does look a little bit like my youngest daughter.

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/13/2013 11:21:11 PM   
sillyflower


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True but there again I only score 1/3 on your gentleman test so I am excused. Do Southern gentlemen call other gentlemen inselaffen?
And I only wanted to terrify you, not the rest of your family. That would be truly below the belt.

On the other hand, you could change your name to HITSHEEP202




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/13/2013 11:36:22 PM >


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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/14/2013 5:55:31 PM   
HITMAN202


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Sillyflower .... HITSHEEP ???? that's BAAAAAAA (short a sound) AAAD !!! Come up with something better. I had to look up something, let me say, that was "nice" nasty, so I foung inselaffen.

I am a transplanted Southerner. No gentlemen indeed. But not a redneck. To be a "southern hick" (synomyn) you need 1) to own a 18 wheeler, 2) a hound dog, 3) mobile home, and 4) a wife so hirsute that one needs a hunting lincense to go to bed with her. I only have 3 of the 4.

Sillyflower, we've got to stop this informal stuff. I will start an AAR after my next turn (11th). You'll be welcomed. I'm sure Sean will referee. He'll have to. Canadians don't like to see their friends injured.

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/14/2013 8:32:54 PM   
sillyflower


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Well, I'm pretty sure you did tell me earlier you have never had a dog, so I hope the wonderful Mrs Hitman doesn't read forum trash

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/14/2013 8:34:33 PM >


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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/14/2013 10:07:16 PM   
Michael T


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Come on Hitman, bring it on, I want to see you stick it to these guys

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/14/2013 11:39:43 PM   
sillyflower


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No chance Michael. He's too nice to do the trash talk effectively. He writes in his real life persona which is very different from Hitman, and is no match for an English public school boy. [Note to foreigners: English public schools are the private school and 10 years of boarding school means I'm a real pro at the verbals]

He plays WiTE as Hitman though.

I have never heard or read trash talk by a Canadian so we shall see.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/15/2013 8:56:17 AM >


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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/15/2013 12:31:16 AM   
carlkay58

 

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silly - you would if you ever played darts with any of them. I learned my best trash talk from working at Oshawa Truck plant near Toronto and playing darts during lunch.

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/15/2013 12:37:06 AM   
HITMAN202


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Trash talk effectively ??? Just wait until I start the AAR and you'll (Sean, I'm afraid you're along for the ride. Canister shot is not real selective) see some first class slagging. A nice guy ??? Sillyflower, the pic of my Avatar is after, after a good night's sleep, shower, and expensive facial. Nasty is nasty. Michael T., I will put on a show for you.

About my wife's reading interests .... this forum is not high on her list. She is humorred by most everything. This would not.



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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/15/2013 8:53:48 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

silly - you would if you ever played darts with any of them. I learned my best trash talk from working at Oshawa Truck plant near Toronto and playing darts during lunch.


Maybe Sean should spend some time there then.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/15/2013 8:54:38 AM   
sillyflower


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double post

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/15/2013 8:55:53 AM >


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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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RE: Conundrum for AGS in 41 - 3/15/2013 8:19:47 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

About my wife's reading interests .... this forum is not high on her list. She is humorred by most everything. This would not.


Clearly, you were not in anyway describing Mrs H, about whom you have justifiably waxed so proudly elsewhere, who would know that and not be bothered.

What would trouble any wife is to find out that their husband was describing his ideal woman, who is nothing like her. That is why you must not let her see this thread.

I didn't do psychology for nothing. Your subliminal thoughts are now open to public inspection.


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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

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