Supply depots won't move

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Supply depots won't move

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Supply depots won't move - 3/6/2013 9:52:19 AM

black88g

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Why didn't my supply depots move? I gave them the order to. It's not possible for me to get my units inside Arnhem without the supply depots following. They have movements lines but they just sat in the same spot all day in night.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/6/2013 12:00:50 PM

Arjuna

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mmm...send me a save and I'll check it out.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/6/2013 1:15:42 PM

black88g

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Here's the save. I can't post links

sendspace(.)com/file/100pn9

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/6/2013 3:58:31 PM

Bil H

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If I had my way, supply depots supporting a Regiment/Brigade or higher would NEVER be allowed to move in the timeframe of a scenario. Those were not mobile installations and did not maneuver with the "maneuver" elements. Why would you want to move it into the midst of a firefight anyway (going off your screenshot above)?

But I'm an old stick in the mud, as I'm sure Dave will soon confirm.

Bil

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/6/2013 4:14:49 PM

black88g

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Supply depots should be in the rear and this is the battle of Arnhem where a lot of things don't make sense. I need the supply depots in the front or I'll get annihilated.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/6/2013 6:14:27 PM

phoenix

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Agree with you Black, re needing to position them somewhat closer than the drop zone if their quota of trucks is not to be very rapidly annihilated, leaving you without supply. I've had this phenomena too (apparent stuck depots), but when I've checked I've always assumed it was because they were super busy. I have assumed that if they were actually doing their job (supplying) then they couldn't be moving at the same time. Hence big depots, when there is lots of front line action and when they have lots of trucks out, lots of requests in (check the dep tab) are very slow to move. That's been an assumption though. Best to know the truth. You will need to send your save to support@panthergames.com
In the Arnhem scenario I've had no trouble getting the depots in with the combat troops if I moved them IMMEDIATELY, on day 1 (just unchecking 'basing' and positioning the HQ near the fighting units will usually do it) - that is, before they actually need to do much resupplying. Once they start getting masses of requests in then they become sluggish. As I said, I've assumed that was realistic. Be great for Dave to look at it though.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/6/2013 7:57:14 PM

Lieste

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It's more to do with having known enemy firepower projected onto the route...

At the beginning the 'ass-umption' is that the whole of Arnhem is clear ... once you have WEBER straddling the only available route, it is far harder to justify moving the entire supply echelon down that road...

Worse the destination is the epicentre of the combat action in Osnabruck...

Better results might have been obtained by closing on the position of the Bde HQ, rather than the line units... (remember that the unit footprints for larger units can exceed the size of the icon designating their centres...) You'll need a much bigger perimeter to safely permit all HQ, Artillery and Supply elements to function correctly, while everyone is at full strength (more or less).

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/6/2013 8:13:48 PM

phoenix

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That could be, Lieste, though it therefore leads to odd situations, and doesn't cover all situations where this happens, maybe. I had a depot stuck for about thirty-six hours just outside the perimeter of a Bn deployed just south of Nijmegan. The depot was maybe a kilometre away from 'safety' (it had moved up from drop zone N with the Bn). There was nothing inbetween it and friendly units, nothing to the flanks. Plenty of enemy right behind it though, at some distance and closing. Plenty of fire in and around the 'perimeter', mainly arty, but some direct too. The depot, however, was for a very long time not under fire. The 'route' to the destination was, as I said, about a kilometre to the first combat unit, then about another kilo into the centre of the Bn area. But the depot just couldn't cover that distance. There may have been fire over that distance (though, as I said, I had assumed the depot was too busy supplying to move), but what an odd result, if it was down to fire or projected fire!! To have it stuck like that for so long and eventually attacked and overrun from behind because it just wouldn't move.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/6/2013 10:37:45 PM

Arjuna

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Depots and senior HQ will stall their move if enemy threats within range. The new code implemented in this next patch will do two things. First it will inform you with a message and via the unit log if this occurs. Second it will try to bypass if that is allowed in your order or it may just wait there for any line units within the force to clear the way or it may replan. None of these options, however, may enable it to move ahead. So you may have to directly intervene as the player and isue new orders. This may entail specifying a more circuituous route or changing the objective location altogether.

My advice is to wait for this next build and review the matter then.

BTW just for the record Bil is an old stuck in the mud. He is also right most times, which can be very annoying.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/7/2013 12:36:36 PM

rrbill

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A few points:

my depots seem to move where I want them...
do not want them near areas of conflict, much less, near point of attack
accept supply shortages as consequence of conflict
play on regardless

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 12:06:11 AM

Bletchley_Geek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bil H

If I had my way, supply depots supporting a Regiment/Brigade or higher would NEVER be allowed to move in the timeframe of a scenario. Those were not mobile installations and did not maneuver with the "maneuver" elements. Why would you want to move it into the midst of a firefight anyway (going off your screenshot above)?

That's a bit harsh, Bil.

In the kind of quite restricted size battles in BFTB, not having the supply bases to move at all might well be the case. There are very few scenarios where one really needs the support echelon to move along with the fighting troops (Race for Bastogne comes to my mind, you really want to move those supply bases past the rivers to maximize the throughput of supply to forward units).

Just think of a mobile engagement like von Schweppenburg's XXIV Panzer Korps dash across the Dnepr to Yeln'ya. That happened in a week, and covered over 150 kms. If the Germans hadn't take the divisional and regimental logistic echelons forward with them - say, leaving them "safe" west of the Dnepr, by the Shklov and Bykhov bridgeheads - they would have needed to defend their supply line, and the concentration of fighting troops that allowed the breakthrough, wouldn't have been possible at all.

Or in another more concrete example, consider the COTA scenarios where the Italians are attacking across the Epirus mountains. The distance between the start line of the Italians and the realistic Greek defence line is of about 20 kilometers, across terrible terrain. If one doesn't move the regimental supply echelon forward, the throughput of supply, over such long distances with non-motorized logistics, becomes a sad joke. It's all about being able to maximize the tempo of operations when on the offensive, and that's directly linked to the amount of supply per unit of time you can deliver.

Regarding this particular example, as Lieste says, this is quite an impossible situation. Let's remember that the 1st Airborne got divided into two major groups, one in Arnhem and another slightly north of Ooesterbrek. My reckoning of that is that Urquhart needed to defend his - precarious - logistic echelon, having to defend it from three different directions, so he had, inevitably, to devote a substantial amount of troops to setup an all-round defence north of Ooesterbek (here my memory might be failing).

What I see in the map is that black88g has sent all of the division towards Arnhem and the Oosterbek bridge, leaving behind his supply echelon (supported by a single company, which has been totally outmaneuvered and it's now cutoff as well). Here he's concentrated in the point of attack, and disregarded his supply bases (which aren't "fighting troops" at all). The only way to salvage this situation is to take away troops from Arnhem and clear the way for the supply bases. Those aren't combat troops you can expect to plan and deliver successfully an assault.

A more balanced plan which is what I usually do, is to move forward to Arnhem at max speed with the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Para Bn's, leaving behind the airlanding Bde with the supply bases. This second force then is sent towards Oosterbek, a built-in zone, with plenty of roads and easy to defend. I never linger too long at Arnhem itself, since the dash is doomed to fail. It is not realistic to expect the three Para Bns to be able to contain what the Germans can throw at them. So the Para's, after gaining some precious time to get the defense of the division organized, fall back to Oosterbek as soon as that is achieved, distracting big German formations. And there I make The Stand. It's the most likely point XXX Corps can realistically reach, and it would be supporting the Poles, landing two days afterwards.

That was the only way I have been able to achieve a "win", that is, avoiding the historical total destruction of Urquhart command.

If one doesn't like to be "reduced" to be making sad faces like Sean Connery in a Bridge Too Far, what I suggest is to open ScenMaker and bring the damn LZ's closer to Arnhem :-)

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 3/8/2013 12:16:36 AM >

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 1:06:09 AM

black88g

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My paratroopers are holding up in Arnhem without supplies. I lost one supply depot and couldn't get the other two where I wanted them.

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< Message edited by black88g -- 3/8/2013 1:08:02 AM >

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 2:43:39 AM

Bletchley_Geek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: black88g
My paratroopers are holding up in Arnhem without supplies. I lost one supply depot and couldn't get the other two where I wanted them.

Ah, I see that the AI got to Oosterbeek before you could consolidate there... It'll be interesting to see how long can the Arnhem grouping resist (I mean, how long does it take for them to start surrendering in masse).

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 3/8/2013 2:46:18 AM >

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 5:51:13 AM

rfrizz

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Try a 1 minute arty barrage on them. Don't forget to uncheck the "Avoid Friendlies" option!

Don't knock it... it has worked for me before. Of course, that was quite a few patches ago. Besides, good leadership is about having a velvet glove over the iron fist. This is a case where you need to take the gloves off and use the bare iron fist.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 9:19:03 AM

phoenix

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Lol, Rfrizz. Great idea.....not very historical, but amusing.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 12:51:10 PM

wodin

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I wonder if air drop supplies will ever be a feature in the game...

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 12:56:05 PM

jimcarravallah

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It already is an option for delivery to a supply entry point (SEP); very prominent in the HttR scenarios.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 4:09:17 PM

RockinHarry

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I wonder how it should be possible to move around an airborne units "base" with few dozens jeeps at best. I�d take the airborne bases more of a kind of supply collecting point, that is more or less firmly tied to the airborne deliveries, dropped nearby. So in this regard, the bases shouldn�t be able to be moved, which is the case and thus realistic IMO.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 7:06:27 PM

jimcarravallah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

I wonder how it should be possible to move around an airborne units "base" with few dozens jeeps at best. I�d take the airborne bases more of a kind of supply collecting point, that is more or less firmly tied to the airborne deliveries, dropped nearby. So in this regard, the bases shouldn�t be able to be moved, which is the case and thus realistic IMO.

If you're looking at "real life," airborne brigades include relatively mobile supply bases as part of their structures. More recent operations I'm familiar with include the use of helicopter-transported or air landed trucks to create the base near the command center of a headquarters unit. Supply packages are deployed in modules appropriate either for para drop, air landing, or helicopter transport to a central "Supply Entry Point."

Both helicopter transport and air landed trucks (up to 10 KG models broken into air transportable configurations and reassembled once landed) would be used to disburse supplies from pre-loaded supply modules during combat. Supply tactics include identifying places to air land / air drop resupply packages to be retrieved by assets from the mobile base where necessary. Those points could be "ad hoc" drop zones near requisitioning troops.

This is unlike the SEP concept used in the game where the entry points are static, I'm assuming because the time span covered by typical Command Ops scenarios and the less flexible communications capabilities available then could not realistically support a more dynamic move of an airdrop SEP with a unit's advance.

The current tactics (at least in the US where I'm most familiar) were extrapolated from the prototype airborne operations of World War II. The difference then was lack of flexible motorized transport (e.g. no helicopters) and a reliance on glider-borne vehicles for "heavy" transport (as it turns out up to 8,000 KG in some glider designs http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA493762).

The game manual indicates that the SEP for air dropped or air landed supplies cannot "push" supplies to a base as presumed with a road-supported SEP. Means that the limited transport available for the base unit is used to both retrieve supplies from the SEP (drop point), and to disburse them to the requisitioning ("pull") unit, stretching limited base transport to the extreme.

Compounds the penalties on supply distribution for moving bases, but doesn't preclude moving a base if the commander was (in World War II) / is (in command ops) willing to take the penalty for such a decision.

In the All American Over Nijmegen scenario I find it an absolute necessity to move the 504th Regiment base and either protect or move the 508th Regiment base to assure efficient resupply for those two regiments to be effective and protect the 508th from being destroyed by bypassed Nazi forces.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 7:09:46 PM

wodin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah

It already is an option for delivery to a supply entry point (SEP); very prominent in the HttR scenarios.

Forgot that but I was thinking of air drops called in\to from the units\HQ position.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 7:57:38 PM

Bil H

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
BTW just for the record Bil is an old stuck in the mud. He is also right most times, which can be very annoying.

Wait a minute I want to add that to my diary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

That's a bit harsh, Bil.

Perhaps... but you will never convince me that moving hundreds of tons of supplies that are stockpiled in a Brigade or Division supply dump can be done in any way other than at a snails pace... at least not without sacrificing the actual resupply of the subordinate commands. Long supply chains are a fact of warfare and mobile units often outrun their supply and this is often the only thing that brings their advance to a halt.

I think what you are referring to in your examples above are not major supply dumps but supply points, which trickle supply down from the main supply dump (Regiment, Brigade, or Division) and usually only have on hand a bit more than they can inherently carry.. so for these formations yes they can jump forward... however for the large supply dumps, moving these forward was not an easy matter and could take days to accomplish.. and usually with outside help (move by rail, corps level assets, etc.). These Supply Points are not currently represented in Command Ops (BFTB and HTTR, but will be in LOTB).

Regiments in particular rarely had large supply dumps of their own but gathered their supply from Division, and the line units, (Battalions) would grab their needed supplies from these points and move them to their Companies with their own inherent transport.

Bil

< Message edited by Bil H -- 3/8/2013 8:00:45 PM >

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 8:10:03 PM

jimcarravallah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah

It already is an option for delivery to a supply entry point (SEP); very prominent in the HttR scenarios.

Forgot that but I was thinking of air drops called in\to from the units\HQ position.

Almost answered that as well, but didn't want to read it into your post.

Though desired, I don't think it's very realistic in terms of the typical scenario's time span, World War II communications capabilities, or "supplied" headquarter span of control responsibilities.

Going backwards in order, regiments were pretty large but mobile operations, and air dropping supplies to them would require a significant number of aircraft to sustain a typical day to day operation.

World War II telecommunications capabilities were significantly less reliable than what is available today. The broadcast spectrum was limited (if I recall correctly, only the Amplitude Modulation (AM) band was available). Broadcasts in that band are either line of sight (meaning communications from a regiment couldn't effectively go "over the horizon" without relaying them through another broadcast location) or "skipped" between the earth and troposphere over long distances by relatively high powered broadcast antennas (something a regiment couldn't set up efficiently while on the move, and probably didn't have sufficient power to run effectively once set up -- particularly if fuel is flown in to run broadcast-powering generators).

Finally, the logistics lead time to define resupply requirements, gather the necessary supplies, package them at an airhead for delivery, allocate aircraft for the drop, and drop them exceeds the time available in a scenario for such coordination unless the headquarters base is left in place for several days (my guess is about three).

Since "staying in place" is what's required because of the communications and lead time constraints on being flexible to demands, given the distances covered in the typical airborne operational scenarios available in the game one is just as well off protecting the airdrop / glider-delivered / air landing SEP and moving the base as necessary.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 8:31:25 PM

wodin

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yeah thought it might be out of WW2 era.

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RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 9:14:44 PM

Lieste

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bil H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
BTW just for the record Bil is an old stuck in the mud. He is also right most times, which can be very annoying.

Wait a minute I want to add that to my diary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

That's a bit harsh, Bil.

Perhaps... but you will never convince me that moving hundreds of tons of supplies that are stockpiled in a Brigade or Division supply dump can be done in any way other than at a snails pace... at least not without sacrificing the actual resupply of the subordinate commands. Long supply chains are a fact of warfare and mobile units often outrun their supply and this is often the only thing that brings their advance to a halt.

I think what you are referring to in your examples above are not major supply dumps but supply points, which trickle supply down from the main supply dump (Regiment, Brigade, or Division) and usually only have on hand a bit more than they can inherently carry.. so for these formations yes they can jump forward... however for the large supply dumps, moving these forward was not an easy matter and could take days to accomplish.. and usually with outside help (move by rail, corps level assets, etc.). These Supply Points are not currently represented in Command Ops (BFTB and HTTR, but will be in LOTB).

Regiments in particular rarely had large supply dumps of their own but gathered their supply from Division, and the line units, (Battalions) would grab their needed supplies from these points and move them to their Companies with their own inherent transport.

Bil

Bil, my understanding was that CmdOps is supposed to make a distinction between organically carried supply and the stockpile (with abstracted representation of the latter at a geographical location. Dave, is this my imagination or is that what is going on (or supposed to?).

Perhaps part of the issue is the absence of Bn level tactical supply ~ rather than a single truck bringing a day's resupply of ammunition to a Bn, it requires 4-5 to supply each sub-unit with only a fraction of the payload of even a jeep being used in most cases. With a smaller, more tactically 'expendable' collecting/distribution point within a combat formation the number and flexibility of supply chains could be promoted without losing the inherently inflexible nature of Supply Dumps.

It might be beneficial to break supply organisations explicitly into 'Depot & Distribution' and 'Delivery/collection' methods, because the 'columns' did frequently move with their supported echelon (one bound back), and it was only the depots that were 'static'... though new tactical ones would be built up as soon as the tactical situation stabalised. (An ASP was the 'tip' of the supply chain, and distinct from a fixed 'Depot' further back...)

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Post #: 24

RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/8/2013 9:27:04 PM

Arjuna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste
Bil, my understanding was that CmdOps is supposed to make a distinction between organically carried supply and the stockpile (with abstracted representation of the latter at a geographical location. Dave, is this my imagination or is that what is going on (or supposed to?).

Each unit carries its own supplies - ie its first line of supply - either on the man or in organic vehicles. The Bases represent large dumps managed by higher HQs. In reality at any one time a Div Base may have several dumps - eg the one it created last week at X but has not left behind in its move to Y where it is curtrently stockpiling. It would draw down the dump at X as time and resources permit. But I opted to not model that level of complexity.

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Post #: 25

RE: Supply depots won't move - 3/13/2013 6:24:01 PM

black88g

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I don't think I'll be able to win this. There's just too many Germans in the way.