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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

 
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 3/11/2013 4:12:55 AM   
Rtwfreak

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

On the point about having no AI its really about sales.

The vast majority of people want a single player experience. That's the reality and so we have to provide it to them.

You can design games around the idea of multiplayer, but they need to be different in design and structure and tend to be lighter. E.g. games like Hero Academy.


YES solo single players win again!

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Post #: 121
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 3/11/2013 6:36:59 AM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

I mean to say, just to give one example: Suppose Finland's population was 300 million (about America's current number), while the USA's population was 5 million (about Finland's current number). I'd bet there would be far fewer Bulge and D-Day games, and far more games on: the Winter (Russo-Finnish) War (1939-1940), the Finnish Civil War (1918), the Great Northern War (Finnish operations, 1710-1721), etc.

Bit late, but gotta throw comment in here. Though population of whole Finland doesn't even meet population of some capital cities and therefore international market for wargames and everything else is marginal at best, we can be very vocal about wargames. I recall something said about some wargame (could been Combat Mission 2 or original Steel Panthers) getting more feedback from Finland than anywhere else.

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 3/11/2013 12:47:45 PM   
Rtwfreak

 

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I am looking forward to Command OPS D-Day game.

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 3/11/2013 1:16:22 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

I am looking forward to Command OPS D-Day game.


Some user made scenarios came out covering Normandy..not sure if it was COTA or HTTR..think it was HTTR. Beach landings weren't that fun to play.

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Post #: 124
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 3/12/2013 1:00:04 AM   
Perturabo


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God, not Normandy again. After 2000s, I'd be glad to never see a wargame set in that place and time.

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Post #: 125
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 3/12/2013 2:50:40 AM   
Rtwfreak

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

God, not Normandy again. After 2000s, I'd be glad to never see a wargame set in that place and time.


Oh please please please just one more Battle for Normandy game using Command OPS series.

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Post #: 126
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/3/2013 2:31:30 AM   
PEWPEW

 

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I'd really like to see a few things from the wargaming community.

1. Utilize new payment models available. Kickstarter, Steam Greenlight, and the Alpha funding model used by a lot of indie games come to mind. A lot of talk comes to funding old war games and putting up new expensive projects. Why not use Kickstarter to look into what people want and how far the game can get off the people's interests? For example, I'd love to see a new operational game covering the Aillied front from Normandy to Germany. Why not put a Kickstarter up with Tiered goals like Planetary Annihilation where once the funding for the base game, Normandy in our case, is secured the goal changes into how much extra content goes onto the base game.

2. Get more games onto major digital distribution. Why isn't the Matrix games catalog on Steam? I'd argue that even if they take a lion's share of the pie, the amount of sales caused by the publicity will out balance it out. In the worst situation, somebody might buy a game on impulse and lose interest very fast, but it'd still be revenue.

3. Make games more accessible. Not by simplifying things but providing a path for the player. The combat mission games are taking a step forward by offering multiple tutorials and a recommended scenario path that do not overwhelm the player, and gives the player all types of easily identifiable scenarios that are clear and concise in briefings.


4. Get the community involved. Valve has done a wonderful job providing content developers an recognition and cash incentives. I'd really like to see this model be utilized in the war gaming community. One thing that comes to mind is the STX Exchange's donations model. Provide the community download depots and stuff and such, but give the community options to fund these projects. Offer a co-op type of payment model where the content maker receives a portion of the money like valve does with it's models and maps.

< Message edited by PEWPEW -- 4/3/2013 2:35:53 AM >

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Post #: 127
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/3/2013 3:32:16 AM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

God, not Normandy again. After 2000s, I'd be glad to never see a wargame set in that place and time.


Oh please please please just one more Battle for Normandy game using Command OPS series.



There is a user made scenario..for COTA or HTTR can't remember which which covered a beach landing and some in country scenarios aswell if I remember correctly.

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Post #: 128
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/3/2013 1:38:00 PM   
demjansk


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I agree with putting some of the games on Steam or other download services. I love Matrix games, however, some of the old titles are still being listed for $39.99 and I wonder if anyone even downloads them anymore for that price. I think they should put them up at 9.99 and have sales like Steam and you would see them move. Them, when people like them they will try out more recent games and then be hooked.

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Post #: 129
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/3/2013 2:16:33 PM   
wodin


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It would put abit of money into the developers pockets aswell.
quote:

ORIGINAL: demjansk

I agree with putting some of the games on Steam or other download services. I love Matrix games, however, some of the old titles are still being listed for $39.99 and I wonder if anyone even downloads them anymore for that price. I think they should put them up at 9.99 and have sales like Steam and you would see them move. Them, when people like them they will try out more recent games and then be hooked.


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Post #: 130
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/6/2013 7:32:58 AM   
flanyboy

 

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Wargames were dying in 1999 according to Maximum PC.

The PC was dying in 2004, the PC was dying in 2008, big series like Tomb Raider and Sim City broke sales records this year. The problem with gaming companies revenues at the AAA level is the cost of the games today. Their maxing out graphics, hiring tons more than they ever did and setting unrealistic sales goals. Bad business practices doesn't mean PC gaming is dying though, nor is it an indication that war gaming is dying.

Panzer General II was a smash hit and sold over 100,000 copies in 1997.

Panzer Corps has sold over 200,000 units in 2012. Granted I assume DLC is included there so it's not the same as 100,000 but it could be more than 100,000 of the full version or at least close.

Allied General and PC gaming

< Message edited by flanyboy -- 4/6/2013 7:36:50 AM >

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/7/2013 4:54:47 AM   
PEWPEW

 

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I think the best word for it would be stagnant. Like what Rebel pointed out, it's better to just keep putting out games like Panzer Corps than something very meaty like WitE.

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Post #: 132
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/7/2013 5:38:30 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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We still have WitE too. TOAW serie is still under development, or at least so is rumored. What's current situation with Steel Panthers series?

Reports about death of the wargames are greatly exaggerated

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Post #: 133
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/7/2013 6:17:58 PM   
Rtwfreak

 

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I often wonder though how many new young wargamers are entering the market? They've been introduced to shooters and rts games and I'm wondering if they really are getting interested in grandpa's turn based slow as christmas thinking persons games? Heck I don't even like to play board wargames anymore cause of all the setup time and reading the rules 100 times to be sure we're playing it correctly. But, I would like them ported to the PC and let the computer do all that rules keeping. So change even effected me (or is that affected? never could remember one from the other) and I left board wargaming for computer wargaming. Back in my day we didn't have FPS or RTS games of any size and quantity on the PC and boardlike wargames on the PC were number 1. Now FPS and RTS games outnumber PC wargames by the 100's and PC wargames get lost in the back of the commercial so to speak.

We need more games like Command OPs and Norbsofts combat engine whereby we command more than click click click click play. I really am hoping for a Normandy type Command OPs game (and no Wodin I don't want no mods I want the real thing by the real developer cause he knows best).

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Post #: 134
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/7/2013 10:59:02 PM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak
I often wonder though how many new young wargamers are entering the market?


there’s a few, but to be honest wargamers tend to come off a-little grumpy in their old age and usually send them packing within a few posts/reply’s……….

(in reply to Rtwfreak)
Post #: 135
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/8/2013 12:11:03 AM   
flanyboy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

I often wonder though how many new young wargamers are entering the market? They've been introduced to shooters and rts games and I'm wondering if they really are getting interested in grandpa's turn based slow as christmas thinking persons games? Heck I don't even like to play board wargames anymore cause of all the setup time and reading the rules 100 times to be sure we're playing it correctly. But, I would like them ported to the PC and let the computer do all that rules keeping. So change even effected me (or is that affected? never could remember one from the other) and I left board wargaming for computer wargaming. Back in my day we didn't have FPS or RTS games of any size and quantity on the PC and boardlike wargames on the PC were number 1. Now FPS and RTS games outnumber PC wargames by the 100's and PC wargames get lost in the back of the commercial so to speak.

We need more games like Command OPs and Norbsofts combat engine whereby we command more than click click click click play. I really am hoping for a Normandy type Command OPs game (and no Wodin I don't want no mods I want the real thing by the real developer cause he knows best).


I'm 25 fwiw. I've been wargaming since I was 13, and I can honestly say that the original Panzer General got me interested in more deeper wargames.

I think it's safe to say that Panzer General, Civil War Generals, and Sid Meier's Gettysburg acted as my gateway games into much deeper wargames like WiTP.

Games like PC are very good for complex games imho because they get people who might otherwise never get into the genre into the genre and from there some (not all) will move to wanting something more. Casual games are important for the industry.

I also think that YouTube is a gift to niche games as it makes it so much easier to market. Granted I don't have access to sales figures but I've gotten at least 20-25 pm's from people who said they bought Scourge of War, Panzer Corps, Crusader Kings, and Out of the Park Baseball as a result of watching some videos I put together.

I suppose some of them are lying but its basically free advertising for people to check out games they probably never would have heard of before. I have over 50,000 views on videos on Panzer Corps, 30,000+ on SOW, and 20,000+ on a baseball sim called Out of the Park Baseball. Granted those figures are puny in YouTube land but the guy who does out of 8 has over 800,000 views on wargames he covers and I guarantee you many of the viewers of his videos, mine and several others out there are introducing new people to these games who would otherwise never see the games.

< Message edited by flanyboy -- 4/8/2013 12:17:41 AM >

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 4/8/2013 10:56:57 AM   
shunwick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

I also think that YouTube is a gift to niche games as it makes it so much easier to market. Granted I don't have access to sales figures but I've gotten at least 20-25 pm's from people who said they bought Scourge of War, Panzer Corps, Crusader Kings, and Out of the Park Baseball as a result of watching some videos I put together.

I suppose some of them are lying but its basically free advertising for people to check out games they probably never would have heard of before. I have over 50,000 views on videos on Panzer Corps, 30,000+ on SOW, and 20,000+ on a baseball sim called Out of the Park Baseball. Granted those figures are puny in YouTube land but the guy who does out of 8 has over 800,000 views on wargames he covers and I guarantee you many of the viewers of his videos, mine and several others out there are introducing new people to these games who would otherwise never see the games.


That's a really good point. I do think that war game publishers should make more of You Tube as a marketing tool. The trailers are ok. But the real deal is the Let's Play walk-throughs.

I have recently bought Defense Grid - The Awakening. Ok, a tower defence game and not your normal war game fare but I had never heard of it before until I came across a Let's Play series on You Tube.

I liked what I saw and I bought the game.

Would I have bought it normally? No. I had never of it before. Would I have bought it on the strength of a trailer video? No. Trailer videos give no indication of game play.

Demo versions are ok but you already need to know that the game exists. As a pure marketing tool a You Tube Let's Play series is just about as good as it gets.

Best wishes,
Steve


< Message edited by shunwick -- 4/8/2013 11:01:16 AM >


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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/23/2016 8:00:43 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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I searched one thread and found also this old one. On first post was said:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

My fear is that along with everything else it seems that wargames will become increasingly more simple and lack depth.

How does War in the West address your fears?

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/23/2016 8:17:28 PM   
Hattori Hanzo


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an old but still very interesting discussion here

< Message edited by Hattori Hanzo -- 5/23/2016 11:32:05 PM >

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/23/2016 9:08:40 PM   
wings7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

I searched one thread and found also this old one. On first post was said:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

My fear is that along with everything else it seems that wargames will become increasingly more simple and lack depth.

How does War in the West address your fears?


What do you mean by "War in the West"?

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/23/2016 9:22:53 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

I searched one thread and found also this old one. On first post was said:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

My fear is that along with everything else it seems that wargames will become increasingly more simple and lack depth.

How does War in the West address your fears?


What do you mean by "War in the West"?

Wargame. What did you thought?

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

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Post #: 141
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/23/2016 9:27:05 PM   
wings7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

I searched one thread and found also this old one. On first post was said:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

My fear is that along with everything else it seems that wargames will become increasingly more simple and lack depth.

How does War in the West address your fears?


What do you mean by "War in the West"?

Wargame. What did you thought?


I see now, I did not know what you meant that's why I asked!

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/24/2016 7:49:27 PM   
Hattori Hanzo


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quote:

Warspite1:

..unlike that other waste of money, Empire In Arms


an old thread indeed, but I'm curious:

can you please explain me why do you consider Empires in Arms a "waste of money" ?
it seem to me a very good wargame and I would like to buy it..

thank you in advance for your precious help

< Message edited by Hattori Hanzo -- 5/24/2016 7:53:55 PM >

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/24/2016 7:54:37 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo


quote:

unlike that other waste of money, Empire In Arms


an old thread indeed, but I'm curious:

can you please explain me why do you consider Empires in Arms a "waste of money" ?
it seem to me a very good wargame and I would like to buy it..

thank you in advance


warspite1

Well I bought it, never once got to play it (nothing worse than not understanding something that has just happened in game and not being in any way shape of form clear whether its my lack of understanding or another stupid bug), it was buggy as hell and within a relatively short space of time the forum became a ghost town...

No idea if its still supported or played by anyone - I long ago threw the game out.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 5/24/2016 8:23:13 PM >


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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/24/2016 8:26:48 PM   
Hattori Hanzo


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thank you Warspite1: do you played it with other human players or only against the AI ?

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/24/2016 8:30:28 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo

thank you Warspite1: do you played it with other human players or only against the AI ?
warspite1

As I said, sadly it was so buggy and awful I never got to play it at all before I gave up in despair of it ever being sorted. I cannot even remember everything that was wrong with it but I think the AI was really bad.

Who knows, maybe they got it working?


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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/25/2016 4:51:54 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen
How does War in the West address your fears?

War in the West (and East) is probably one of the worse offenders of computer wargaming's excesses. It utilizes all of a computer's horsepower to simulate incredible amounts of minutia, but the interface design might as well have been left in the 80s.

Reducing combat factors to large whole numbers, making the movement point allotment of a Panzer Division a constant integer, and having a unit's relative health be defined as "whole or half" only may be simplistic and unrealistic, but it also means that it's easy to understand and implement.

When you have to scan through an spreadsheet to look at which units need reinforcements, when you have to then set individual chit-units to "Refit" mode, and then have to wait multiple turns to before the Percentage TOE rises to a combat-capable level, that's a ton of busywork that didn't really enhance the experience of fighting a WW2 campaign much better than just assigning a limited number "reinforcement steps".

When you define a unit's combat strength as being dependent on that Percentage TOE, plus morale, plus experience, plus terrain, etc., but then don't give the player many tools to see what the final result is, or could be, across multiple units, different modes of attack, or with probabilities before launching those attacks, you're not adding a lot of value compared to leaving it up to a ratio, a Combat Results Table, and a die roll.

Wargames should be deep, there's no question about that. But I take issue when in the transition from a boardgame to a digital space, designers lose sight of the need to keep things intuitive.

And it's in this regard that I would call out games like Order of Battle and Unity of Command and even Vietnam 65 as being better designs and representatives of the genre, than War in the Pacific or AGEOD.

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/25/2016 11:56:39 AM   
Iain McNeil


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UI design is an increasing issue for wargames. People expect better and more intuitive UI's these days and some developers are struggling to give what is required. We're working with our developers to help solve these problems on a game by game basis and we are seeing a steady improvement but it takes a long time to make games with these higher production values so we're seeing a bit of a lull in releases as we try to get developers to give the modern audience what they expect. We're helping Ageod & 2by3 develop completely new game engines to allow them to make modern wargames and are talking to many more partners and expect to be working with them to create new engines in the not too distant future.

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/25/2016 3:40:08 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

unlike that other waste of money, Empire In Arms


No idea if its still supported or played by anyone


EiANW is still supported.

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Post #: 149
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/25/2016 4:52:30 PM   
Jagdtiger14


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Empires in Arms is an incredibly awesome board game if you can get 5-8 people together to play it. Its on the same high level as World in Flames...although without the mass following.

It was the hope of many players of EiA that the computer version would be true to the board game, and even be a kind of players aid. But the computer version veered into a strange collection of house rules called Empires in Harms that few people played with or were even interested in, then on top of that the game was not programmed correctly.

Quite a sad story, hope this game is resurrected some day the way it should be...in its purist form.

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