jimcarravallah
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phoenix
In the file you PM'd me, Jim, I'd been planning to drop the 17th on day 2, on Drop Zone N. Is there any reason why this couldn't happen?
In your new file (in this thread) you drop the 17th either on Day 4 or day 5 between Nijmegan and Arnhem (how do you choose between Day 4 or Day 5, by the way [sorry if you covered this somewhere already] - which option gives day 4, I mean, and which day 5?)
You drop them into polder, but it's a glider drop. Would that have worked? If so, why there? Why not in the Polder where they planned on dropping the Poles, near Elden, nearer Arnhem?
Was the 17th definitely a glider drop division (not air drop)? I would have thought there was no way they would have tried to put gliders onto polder. Am I wrong?
Just curious, knowing how you're keen on the historicity of the possibilities.
Cheers.
Hi Phoenix,
quote:
In the file you PM'd me, Jim, I'd been planning to drop the 17th on day 2, on Drop Zone N. Is there any reason why this couldn't happen?
Since my background is in logistics planning, and transport is key to that, I looked into the airlift capacity available for Market Garden, and read that there was sufficient airlift for roughly 60-percent of the forces involved (roughly 1.8-divisions worth of manpower and gear). I didn’t want to alter the existing air drop schedule, so the 17th could either be piecemealed into the battle when the “main” airlift lagged, or inserted later after the “main” divisions had established landing zones and the unit numbers strengthened.
In addition, I had no information on how much of the airlift capacity would be diverted to air dropping supplies once troops were inserted, or what attrition did to the original airlift capability, so I moved the drop back to a time when there was less intense airlift demand for moving troops and the onset of the demand for air dropped supplies.
Finally, the 17th (aside from the 507th Parachute Infantry Regiment) had not been battle tested. It’s chances of succeeding would be improved if it became the final diversion in the Nazi response instead of the primary target by being dropped on the first day (if I recall correctly, essentially the same reason the Polish Brigade was not dropped earlier in the operation).
All those added up to a day 3 or later drop (in one of the “favor allies” variants the 507th arrives around the same time as the 325th on Day 3).
I didn’t consider DZ N for the drop because it already was covered by division and corps assets, and I wanted to dilute the Nazi force response to any one site.
quote:
In your new file (in this thread) you drop the 17th either on Day 4 or day 5 between Nijmegan and Arnhem (how do you choose between Day 4 or Day 5, by the way [sorry if you covered this somewhere already] - which option gives day 4, I mean, and which day 5?)
Under the variant, there are four “favor allies” reinforcement schedules, two that came with the original scenario, and two I added. The “favor allies” selection randomly chooses among the four alternates (the two original plus the two I added).
The 507th arrives randomly (25-percent chance) on Day 3 in parallel with the 325th and Polish Brigade with the rest of the division arriving on Day 4 or (25 percent chance) early on Day 4 with the rest of the division following that day and the next.
quote:
You drop them into polder, but it's a glider drop. Would that have worked? If so, why there? Why not in the Polder where they planned on dropping the Poles, near Elden, nearer Arnhem?
I looked for non wooded terrain near a communications junction for the drop roughly midway between Nijmegen and Arnhem figuring that was a “gap” along “Hell’s Highway” that needed to be covered if assets were available.
The zone allows flexibility for the commander to delay Nazi forces heading toward Nijmegen, move to Nijmegen to help secure the bridges from the rear for the XXXth Corps ground forces approaching from Graves, or move to Arnhem to help with the defense against the Nazi counter attack there.
quote:
Was the 17th definitely a glider drop division (not air drop)? I would have thought there was no way they would have tried to put gliders onto polder. Am I wrong?
The 17th was half and half, two Parachute Infantry Regiments (507th and 513th) and two glider regiments (192nd and 193rd).
The polder wasn’t ideal for glider drops, but my focus was on landing near a communications point that could disrupt Nazi forces if the command remained in place, or provide quick access to a road network for maneuver once landed if maneuver were selected.
Not being familiar with polder except by description, I viewed it as largely like a man made marsh near my home which used to be farmer’s fields delineated by tree stands along the borders. The distances between the tree stands are sufficient for a light plane to run out after landing, and except in the early spring when standing water ponds flood the plain, the ground is largely dry beneath a mat of thick grass that could hold a person’s weight by itself.
Since the gliders were a onetime use aircraft that essentially landed on their bellies, I didn’t consider what I was familiar with a hindrance to that kind of landing as long as the pilot kept the nose up.
If the polder is more constrained terrain or less open than what I’m familiar with, then perhaps the variant could use only the two parachute infantry regiments which don’t require any “skid” distance to slide safely to a stop.
_____________________________
Take care,
jim
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Printable Version
From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant - 
being that my great-grandfather, and 2 great-uncles were fighting on the German side in this campaign, I would suggest a different view than blaming the British for a disaster at Arnhem. There was another, pretty well trained army on the other side.. sometimes a defeat , or "disaster".. is not the blame of anyone, there will always be a winning side, and a losing side, even if both sides did "everything right" 
RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 
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