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From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant

 
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From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant - 2/28/2013 8:38:36 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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Market-Garden planners considered using the US 17th Airborne Division when it was scheduled for deployment to England in August 1944. Though the new division was anchored by 507th Parachute Infantry Regiment, culled from 82nd Airborne when the division was withdrawn from Normandy combat, the other units in the formation needed more training to bring them near the 507th's combat reliability.

In this variant, a Player using the "favor allies" reinforcement option has a 50-percent chance that the planners accelerated the 17th's training, and inserted it along Hell's Highway just of Rescon. If the unit shows up, commanders need to take into account that a majority of the division's subordinate units are less combat tested than their counterparts in either the 507th Regiment or the 82nd Airborne.

The attached file contains a modified Scenario which should be placed in the "My Scenarios" folder under Scenarios in the root directory.

Feedback would be welcomed.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Take care,

jim
Post #: 1
RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant - 2/28/2013 10:53:58 PM   
Arjuna


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Well done Jim. Come on everyone, give it a go and let's hear that feedback.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

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RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant - 3/1/2013 12:17:07 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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I'm heavily engaged, but I'll try to give it a go this weekend

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From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/3/2013 4:30:21 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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First Update.

SEP 5 (in 17th Airborne Sector if division is included in OOB under "Favor Allies" reinforcement schedule ) changed to "air drop" supply entry point.

Erroneously identified as "truck" SEP in original release.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Take care,

jim

(in reply to jimcarravallah)
Post #: 4
RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/5/2013 10:58:59 PM   
phoenix

 

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In the file you PM'd me, Jim, I'd been planning to drop the 17th on day 2, on Drop Zone N. Is there any reason why this couldn't happen?

In your new file (in this thread) you drop the 17th either on Day 4 or day 5 between Nijmegan and Arnhem (how do you choose between Day 4 or Day 5, by the way [sorry if you covered this somewhere already] - which option gives day 4, I mean, and which day 5?)

You drop them into polder, but it's a glider drop. Would that have worked? If so, why there? Why not in the Polder where they planned on dropping the Poles, near Elden, nearer Arnhem?

Was the 17th definitely a glider drop division (not air drop)? I would have thought there was no way they would have tried to put gliders onto polder. Am I wrong?

Just curious, knowing how you're keen on the historicity of the possibilities.

Cheers.

(in reply to jimcarravallah)
Post #: 5
RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/6/2013 3:00:40 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

In the file you PM'd me, Jim, I'd been planning to drop the 17th on day 2, on Drop Zone N. Is there any reason why this couldn't happen?

In your new file (in this thread) you drop the 17th either on Day 4 or day 5 between Nijmegan and Arnhem (how do you choose between Day 4 or Day 5, by the way [sorry if you covered this somewhere already] - which option gives day 4, I mean, and which day 5?)

You drop them into polder, but it's a glider drop. Would that have worked? If so, why there? Why not in the Polder where they planned on dropping the Poles, near Elden, nearer Arnhem?

Was the 17th definitely a glider drop division (not air drop)? I would have thought there was no way they would have tried to put gliders onto polder. Am I wrong?

Just curious, knowing how you're keen on the historicity of the possibilities.

Cheers.


Hi Phoenix,

quote:

In the file you PM'd me, Jim, I'd been planning to drop the 17th on day 2, on Drop Zone N. Is there any reason why this couldn't happen?


Since my background is in logistics planning, and transport is key to that, I looked into the airlift capacity available for Market Garden, and read that there was sufficient airlift for roughly 60-percent of the forces involved (roughly 1.8-divisions worth of manpower and gear). I didn’t want to alter the existing air drop schedule, so the 17th could either be piecemealed into the battle when the “main” airlift lagged, or inserted later after the “main” divisions had established landing zones and the unit numbers strengthened.

In addition, I had no information on how much of the airlift capacity would be diverted to air dropping supplies once troops were inserted, or what attrition did to the original airlift capability, so I moved the drop back to a time when there was less intense airlift demand for moving troops and the onset of the demand for air dropped supplies.

Finally, the 17th (aside from the 507th Parachute Infantry Regiment) had not been battle tested. It’s chances of succeeding would be improved if it became the final diversion in the Nazi response instead of the primary target by being dropped on the first day (if I recall correctly, essentially the same reason the Polish Brigade was not dropped earlier in the operation).

All those added up to a day 3 or later drop (in one of the “favor allies” variants the 507th arrives around the same time as the 325th on Day 3).

I didn’t consider DZ N for the drop because it already was covered by division and corps assets, and I wanted to dilute the Nazi force response to any one site.

quote:

In your new file (in this thread) you drop the 17th either on Day 4 or day 5 between Nijmegan and Arnhem (how do you choose between Day 4 or Day 5, by the way [sorry if you covered this somewhere already] - which option gives day 4, I mean, and which day 5?)


Under the variant, there are four “favor allies” reinforcement schedules, two that came with the original scenario, and two I added. The “favor allies” selection randomly chooses among the four alternates (the two original plus the two I added).

The 507th arrives randomly (25-percent chance) on Day 3 in parallel with the 325th and Polish Brigade with the rest of the division arriving on Day 4 or (25 percent chance) early on Day 4 with the rest of the division following that day and the next.

quote:

You drop them into polder, but it's a glider drop. Would that have worked? If so, why there? Why not in the Polder where they planned on dropping the Poles, near Elden, nearer Arnhem?


I looked for non wooded terrain near a communications junction for the drop roughly midway between Nijmegen and Arnhem figuring that was a “gap” along “Hell’s Highway” that needed to be covered if assets were available.

The zone allows flexibility for the commander to delay Nazi forces heading toward Nijmegen, move to Nijmegen to help secure the bridges from the rear for the XXXth Corps ground forces approaching from Graves, or move to Arnhem to help with the defense against the Nazi counter attack there.

quote:

Was the 17th definitely a glider drop division (not air drop)? I would have thought there was no way they would have tried to put gliders onto polder. Am I wrong?


The 17th was half and half, two Parachute Infantry Regiments (507th and 513th) and two glider regiments (192nd and 193rd).

The polder wasn’t ideal for glider drops, but my focus was on landing near a communications point that could disrupt Nazi forces if the command remained in place, or provide quick access to a road network for maneuver once landed if maneuver were selected.

Not being familiar with polder except by description, I viewed it as largely like a man made marsh near my home which used to be farmer’s fields delineated by tree stands along the borders. The distances between the tree stands are sufficient for a light plane to run out after landing, and except in the early spring when standing water ponds flood the plain, the ground is largely dry beneath a mat of thick grass that could hold a person’s weight by itself.

Since the gliders were a onetime use aircraft that essentially landed on their bellies, I didn’t consider what I was familiar with a hindrance to that kind of landing as long as the pilot kept the nose up.

If the polder is more constrained terrain or less open than what I’m familiar with, then perhaps the variant could use only the two parachute infantry regiments which don’t require any “skid” distance to slide safely to a stop.


_____________________________

Take care,

jim

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 6
RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/6/2013 5:11:29 PM   
phoenix

 

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Muchas gracias Jim.

I'm keen to try it, but waiting for the new build now (hopefully this week, fingers crossed Matrix can get it up in a couple of days). It looks great, looks like great work putting the 17th together. Thanks for the explanation of the selection between different 'favour allies' strands - I think I'll delete them all except the one dropping them on day 3, so that way (am I right?) I'll know they're definitely arriving then?

The polder thing I'm not sure about. They didn't land gliders on polder, historically (as far as I recall), because the RAF were worried it wouldn't work (especially with the Hamilcars, perhaps) - and this was one of the main reasons for the outrageous distances from zones to targets that in the end buggered the entire Op (the other being the RAF worrying about flak concentrations near the targets or other closer possible drop zones), along with the decision to drop over several days (which I have read as being an RAF decision to do with pilot fatigue [perhaps a good reason?] preventing a two-lift, one day scenario - they would have had to fly out earlier, do drop one earlier, fly back and come back without much break for drop two {this can only have applied to the air drops perhaps, since they couldn't get the gliders back at all...} - but note this was pushed for very keenly by the paras from the US, the UK and Poland, so must have been theoretically possible, and, indeed, I recall the original HTTR modelled such a variant scenario). But besides all this the Brit paras in particular, and some glider pilots, I believe, were very keen on dropping gliders (as well as air drop paras) on polder (in particular to get Freddie Gough's jeeps closer in) close to the Arnhem highway bridge, to effect the 'coup de main' idea. There were many who thought gliders would land safely on the polder. The gliders that landed at Normandie landed on wetter ground sometimes. But the Normandie failures were very much in the minds of the planners (hence no night drop, due to the disastrous dispersal suffered in Normandie). In the end the ferry force (the RAF) had a kind of veto on everything and the OP was planned, it seems, to be as safe as possible for the RAF (though many pilots nevertheless acted with great courage and many still perished). So maybe dropping on polder would have been possible.

I'll let you know how it pans out when I've had a shot at it, after 258 release. Thanks again.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 3/6/2013 6:20:55 PM >

(in reply to jimcarravallah)
Post #: 7
RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/6/2013 6:21:36 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Muchas gracias Jim.

I'm keen to try it, but waiting for the new build now (hopefully this week, fingers crossed Matrix can get it up in a couple of days). It looks great, looks like great work putting the 17th together. Thanks for the explanation of the selection between different 'favour allies' strands - I think I'll delete them all except the one dropping them on day 3, so that way (am I right?) I'll know they're definitely arriving then?

The polder thing I'm not sure about. They didn't land gliders on polder, historically, because the RAF were worried it wouldn't work (especially with the Hamilcars, perhaps) - and this was one of the main reasons for the outrageous distances from zones to targets that in the end buggered the entire Op (the other being the RAF worrying about flak concentrations near the targets or other closer possible drop zones), along with the decision to drop over several days (which I have read as being an RAF decision to do with pilot fatigue [perhaps a good reason?] preventing a two-lift, one day scenario - they would have had to fly out earlier, do drop one earlier, fly back and come back without much break for drop two {this can only have applied to the air drops perhaps, since they couldn't get the gliders back at all...} - but note this was pushed for very keenly by the paras from the US, the UK and Poland, so must have been theoretically possible, and, indeed, I recall the original HTTR modelled such a variant scenario). But besides all this the Brit paras in particular, and some glider pilots, I believe, were very keen on dropping gliders (as well as air drop paras) on polder (in particular to get Freddie Gough's jeeps closer in) close to the Arnhem highway bridge, to effect the 'coup de main' idea. There were many who thought gliders would land safely on the polder. The gliders that landed at Normandie landed on wetter ground sometimes. But the Normandie failures were very much in the minds of the planners (hence no night drop, due to the disastrous dispersal suffered in Normandie). In the end the ferry force (the RAF) had a kind of veto on everything and the OP was planned, it seems, to be as safe as possible for the RAF (though many pilots nevertheless acted with great courage and many still perished). So maybe dropping on polder would have been possible.

I'll let you know how it pans out when I've had a shot at it, after 258 release. Thanks again.


Ah, just like Monty . . . a little Anglo-centric

If Wikipedia is to be trusted, IX Transport Wing of the 9th Air Force supported Market-Garden with its complement of C-46s, C-47s, and C-53s.

To circle back a bit in discussing available air transport, as far as determining what the lift capability was, I looked into how many gliders the C-47 could tow (remembering pictures of the aircraft towing two at once) compared to how many paratroops could be dropped from the plane.

Thought there was a chance at moving the glider troops a bit quicker than the constraints on total air transport.

Turned out that the transport could carry roughly 25 paratroopers, tow one large glider (Horsa with 26 infantry) or tow two smaller gliders (Waco with 13 infantry).

Meant I couldn't notionally deploy the 17th faster because it had a larger complement of glider troops than the 82nd.

Back to the point of who would have hauled the troops, since it was an American division being deployed, I assumed that the carriers, and possibly the drop tactics (e.g. whether to land in a polder), were the responsibility of the American carrier wing.

I was originally going to have one variant option for the 17th to be deployed, but noted that the original scenario had various (two "favor allies," three "favor axis," and two "historical") reinforcement possibilities.

Making the 17th's deployment a 50-50 chance under "favor allies" in effect mimicked making the decision to deploy a variable late in the planning cycle (plus the fact there were multiples of each of the possibilities).

Making the decision random mimicked a circumstance which more likely would result from waiting to see how effective the "accelerated training" was in preparing the troops for their first battle before committing.

I pictured Monty arguing for the extra strength and winning the argument with his staff in the end.

Making it certain cuts down on the suspense starting Day 3 and means Monty wins every time (as Patton recorded in his diary when discussing the Market Garden plan and Ike's diversion of Patton's "extra" fuel and ammo supplies to support it).

Glad it's got you intrigued.

_____________________________

Take care,

jim

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 8
RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/6/2013 6:43:15 PM   
phoenix

 

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Well, I wouldn't play this scenario anymore if I thought it was just going to be the historical forces and arrival times, because I've played it so often it's become too familiar, including familiarity with being unable to do much to alter the real life historical outcomes. That's why I want to make certain I get the extra force.

It may have been the case that US transports were used (would have to look it up), but I believe that it was conceived as a 'British Op' (Monty's), with British command, and hence, I believe, the RAF were actually in charge of the air side (though there were US staff attached at very high levels both for ground forces and the RAF operation - and maybe, given that, who was in charge was a purely nominal thing - but it's traditionally, of course, been the British who have gotten the blame for the disaster at Arnhem.) I didn't mean to suggest that you lot over there had a lesser role....:) God forbid.


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RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/7/2013 4:17:57 AM   
navwarcol

 

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Well, Phoenix being that my great-grandfather, and 2 great-uncles were fighting on the German side in this campaign, I would suggest a different view than blaming the British for a disaster at Arnhem. There was another, pretty well trained army on the other side.. sometimes a defeat , or "disaster".. is not the blame of anyone, there will always be a winning side, and a losing side, even if both sides did "everything right"
As far as the randomness I think you will really enjoy it Phoenix... it is a great tool to toss into your scenarios as you work on them as well..makes every scenario replayable multiple times, you can never be sure what reinforcement schedule your enemy has (can check your own once the game starts) so that even if you were the one that designed the schedule for your enemy in the editor, you can still play and enjoy your own work, and even be surprised sometimes.
Jim, a really great scenario!! Love it!

(in reply to phoenix)
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RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/7/2013 1:49:53 PM   
phoenix

 

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Wow. You must be so young Navwarcol! In my case my grandfathers fought, one in the first war (as it's called) the other in the second! I probably had a great grandfather who fought at Rork's Drift or some such.... I must be getting seriously old...

And as to apportioning ultimate blame for such disasters - best not go there, perhaps....

What's your background, Navwarcol - you do something with the US military (or some military)? - just reading between the lines from some of your posts, and curious.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 3/7/2013 1:54:45 PM >

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RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/8/2013 8:27:42 PM   
navwarcol

 

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Haha, thanks Phoenix. Sometimes I feel quite old though, but yes, am 39. My great grandfather was an Oberst (Colonel) of the Wehrmacht, and his two brothers also served with the Fallschirmjäger. From when I was quite young I remembered the stories that I heard from his daughter, my grandmother.
For myself, I was in the US military actively(Navy), now I am a reservist, but do a lot of contract work for the government still, a lot of which involves "wargaming"..a rather pleasant coincidence as it also happens to be my favorite hobby.

(in reply to phoenix)
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RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/8/2013 11:18:39 PM   
phoenix

 

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Sounds like, indeed, a rather pleasant coincidence, Navwarcol. You rate this game, with your background? That must be a significant endorsement. Are there any other games you would recommend? I find that I can't play any others after getting used to the AI in this. It's a marvellous creation, I think. Wish others would put more work into the AI.

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RE: From the Muese to the Rhine 17th Airborne Variant 0.2 - 3/9/2013 2:25:26 AM   
navwarcol

 

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This game definitely has the best AI I have seen. I very much like also POA2/TU, although that title still imo needs work, and Harpoon from the naval/air modern perspective. The difference I see is that a good scenario designer can MAKE the AI in those other two titles do well, it takes a lot of work, and in the end the AI still is following a script, so that it is unlikely to defeat, for example, the one who designed the scenario. In this title, Dave, and Panther Games, has made an AI that, while not truly THINKING, does mimic that process better than any I have seen. I have had this game since January now, have already tinkered in the editor, and have already been beaten in a scenario I designed, by the AI, which went through the OODA loop/Boyd cycle, and came up with a solution I never would have thought it capable of doing. I love that!

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 14
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