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Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use

 
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Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 2/26/2013 9:16:01 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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I'm thinking about getting back to computer wargaming starting with WinSPMBT. Before I start playing scenarios, I'd like to understand few things about modern battles. If you can direct me to documentation that explains it, please. For now, please answer me this:
M901: M113 with two TOW launchers. Is this supposed to be modern tank destroyer? How does USA use it and how am I supposed to use it in WinSPMBT?
Bradley & Dragon team: how does that combination work? Bradley itself is armed with TOW missiles, so why passengers with short range missile? I don't see use for that in securing buildings (if it needs blown up, Bradley can do it), and can't do overwatch for the vehicle becouse of short range... What am I gonna do with these in scenario Gulf '91: Feint Attack?

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You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

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RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 2/26/2013 9:28:25 PM   
Terminus


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Most of it is pretty self-explanatory, if you take time to think about it.

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(in reply to Matti Kuokkanen)
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RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 2/27/2013 3:34:49 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Most of it is pretty self-explanatory, if you take time to think about it.

What is pretty self-explanatory? Look, you might know all there is to be known about armored warfare, but I don't and I want to learn. What I'm looking for are articles like this about US tank destroyers in WW2. I learned whole lot from that, and I could put some of it in use in SPWAW. Now, anything useful reading about military hardware that are in WinSPMBT? Let's start from USA in wars in Iraq.

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 3
RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 2/28/2013 9:42:59 PM   
Veitikka

 

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WinSPMBT is a bit dated system for simulating tactical level fire and maneuver. Armored Brigade works better :)

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RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 2/28/2013 11:01:49 PM   
Sarge


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From: the pale blue dot
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Most of it is pretty self-explanatory, if you take time to think about it.

What is pretty self-explanatory? Look, you might know all there is to be known about armored warfare, but I don't and I want to learn. What I'm looking for are articles like this about US tank destroyers in WW2. I learned whole lot from that, and I could put some of it in use in SPWAW. Now, anything useful reading about military hardware that are in WinSPMBT? Let's start from USA in wars in Iraq.

Don’t pay any mind to Termite,he’s just a miserable person...

here is a good read on WWII Allied Armor tactics
Tank Tactics: From Normandy to Lorraine


< Message edited by Sarge -- 2/28/2013 11:03:41 PM >

(in reply to Matti Kuokkanen)
Post #: 5
RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/1/2013 12:47:55 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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When the first  Tow's came out.  They were ground mounted(tripod) and mounted on M113's(combat load 12 missiles).  Then later the Improved Tow was used along with the issue of ITV's(Improved Tow Vehicles)..These allowed the gunner, loader to stay down inside of the M113. It had a build in launcher on top that folded up when in movement.  But when placed into the launch position, you could hull defilanted the APC with "only" the twin-launcher sticking up.

When the tow first was deployed in the Army it had a Range of about 3k's......later it was inmproved to 3.4k-3.7k.  I don't know what their range is now.

Each Tow had a stand off range of 1500 meters, meaning once the enemy mech/armor hit that range the tow would move farther back to engage.  The longer the range to the target the higher hit probability(Ruffly 98% back in the 80's)(I know ive seen at least 200 missles fired)(test range)-The Mos Identifier for this Mos was 11H.  I think they have done away with that also.

The tow's woud set up behind the Mech infantry to support along with the Armor....Normally not on anything that might be used by the enemy has a TRP.

Last but not least, the missile would not arm its self until 65 meters.  It had a back blast of 50-75 meters/120 degree angle.  Just keep the cross hair on the target and he is Dead....

Forgot one major thing....the gunner would sight thru a -Day/Night sight tracker...keeping the cross hairs on the target....a infrared flare burned in the back of the missile... which the Day sight tracker would pick up the infrared signal....while this is been done has the missile is flying down range to the target.....a pencil thin wire feeds off the back of the missile to the launcher(wire command link) for the entire distance to the target.

< Message edited by Titanwarrior89 -- 3/1/2013 12:55:13 AM >


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RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/1/2013 4:25:26 AM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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Thank you, Titanwarrior 89. I learned something new from that. So I take it M901 exists as long range tank destroyer.

How about Dragon teams riding M2 Bradley? Is their job to engage enemy MBT that gets inside TOW's minimum range? In addition would Dragon missile be some standard issue which in reality is left inside the Bradley when infantry dismounts to engage enemy infantry?

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You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 7
RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/1/2013 3:30:31 PM   
Titanwarrior89


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Matti, one more thing on th Tow.  The stand off range of 1500 meters or less down to 65 meter, you could still engage the target but the chance of a hit drops as the target moves closer.  Less time to engage the target and keep your sights on him.  The Tow(HAW) (Heavy Weapons anti-tank).   It replaced the old 106 recoiless rifles. 

The Dragon was the(MAW)(Medium Anti-Tank).  The dragon replaced the old 90mm recoiless rifle.  The Dragon round was issue as a round of ammo in a combat situation.  The Infantry, who was the assigned gunner...carries only the tracking sight until he receives a round of ammo.   The Dragon is a Anti-tank weapon but has less charge for killing a heavier modern combat Tank.  It could kill a heavy combat Tank but with less probability.  It is also used for light to med/heavy bunkers/building and Armored Personnel Carries(APC's).  Sorry but Ive forgot the type of charge on the warhead.  It also had a infrared flare glowing of the rear of the missile as it travels to the target, but no wire-command link.  After firing the Infantry man would destory the tube.....and drive on. 

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Matti Kuokkanen)
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RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/2/2013 11:38:52 AM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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Thank you for technical analysis. Can you provide any tactical analysis which answers to my question: why Dragon team in Bradley?

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You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 9
RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/2/2013 6:48:54 PM   
Titanwarrior89


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Actually I don't remember, also at the time when I was in, We did get the bradleys but it was only armed with a 20mm. But I had converted from 11B(Infantry) to 11H(Infantry)(Heavy Weapons Anti-Tank) during that period so I spent alot time in the IPV not the Bradley. Sorry.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Thank you for technical analysis. Can you provide any tactical analysis which answers to my question: why Dragon team in Bradley?



_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Matti Kuokkanen)
Post #: 10
RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/2/2013 8:50:09 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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IPV? This IPV?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Actually I don't remember, also at the time when I was in, We did get the bradleys but it was only armed with a 20mm. But I had converted from 11B(Infantry) to 11H(Infantry)(Heavy Weapons Anti-Tank) during that period so I spent alot time in the IPV not the Bradley. Sorry.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Thank you for technical analysis. Can you provide any tactical analysis which answers to my question: why Dragon team in Bradley?




_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 11
RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/3/2013 1:05:00 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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Sorry I was speaking of the ITV. This one. I had 12 of babies in my Heavy Weapons Combat Support Platoon. When the platoon was full we had around 50 plus men. A section(2 two vehicles) when tactical, would be assigned out to companies or at Battalion level or as a entire platoon that could cover miles of a broad battle front.

The Wooden panel in the front is a trim vain, it helps to keep the track afloat when crossing deep creeks. The track shrouds on the left and right sides are used for channeling the water as you move across the creek(The vehicle swims). Laterals were used for steering on land, and pivots steers for steering thru water.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Matti Kuokkanen)
Post #: 12
RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/3/2013 1:19:24 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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Two more shots.







Attachment (2)

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 13
RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/3/2013 3:48:18 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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ITV = Improvised TOW Vehicle, or M901. Wikipedia says vehicle cannot move when TOW launcher is in firing position. Why not?

And can you provide any tactical analysis about use of that vehicle? I make a guess here: it engages targets only outside return fire range. As soon as enemy gets within effective return fire range, M901 blows up smoke screen, turns tail and run. Am I on target here?

Can you tell me why expensive missile system on such fragile vehicle? Why not apply TOW refit to heavier vehicle like M60 Patton? What are combat losses of M901 and other such vehicles, and would loss # been lower if vehicle had been more heavily armored? Is there ground vehicle armed with more advanced missiles like Hellfire?

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 14
RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/4/2013 2:08:15 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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From: arkansas
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You can't move while the launcher is in the firing position due to safety, tracking of the target and the chance of cutting the wire command link. Hitting the pivot steers (which you should never do on land) with the launcher in the up position increases the odds of a turn over.

One of the main reasons the Tow is not mounted on tanks....the Tank is assault weapon the Tow is not, it's a support weapons system. Technically when the enemy hit the stand-off range of the tow...in a tow section, one tow stands fast in a overwatch position as the other finds a new/hull down position. Then he covers for the other as he falls back. While this is on going the tanks and dragons are engaging. The tows at that point had already engaged out to they max range. And hopefully lower the enemies number before they engaged the Tanks, dragons and so on. You only pop smoke when you have no choice, you always,always try to keep your firing position hidden-always. What can be seen on the battlefield, can be killed.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

ITV = Improvised TOW Vehicle, or M901. Wikipedia says vehicle cannot move when TOW launcher is in firing position. Why not?

And can you provide any tactical analysis about use of that vehicle? I make a guess here: it engages targets only outside return fire range. As soon as enemy gets within effective return fire range, M901 blows up smoke screen, turns tail and run. Am I on target here?

Can you tell me why expensive missile system on such fragile vehicle? Why not apply TOW refit to heavier vehicle like M60 Patton? What are combat losses of M901 and other such vehicles, and would loss # been lower if vehicle had been more heavily armored? Is there ground vehicle armed with more advanced missiles like Hellfire?



_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Matti Kuokkanen)
Post #: 15
RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/4/2013 2:32:03 AM   
flashburn


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It is only relativly recently that at missles could be fired on the move from armored vehicles. Vary few users of such things. In fact the only one I really know if some upgraded bmp2 that can chain fire at missle on the move........or suppose too.....so they claim.

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RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/4/2013 4:29:49 AM   
Lieste

 

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All of the Soviet gun launched ATGM can be used on the move using RF or Laser beam riding (and most are considerably faster than the TOW)

TOW peak velocity ~ 280m/s (soft launch, boost-coast 22 seconds to 3.75km)
125mm Kobra/Invar/Refleks peak velocity ~800m/s (this is soft-launch @ ~200m/s then boost-coast - average velocity for 4km-5km still in excess of 170m/s 11.7 seconds to 4km, 17.6 seconds to 5km)

Maximum ranges are also significantly longer ~ 4km or 5km depending on subtype, rather than the TOW 3.75km

As for 'relatively recently' the original Kobra missile was DOI 1976 (T64B, T80B SACLOS RF missile)
Refleks and Invar were first introduced in 1985 and 1989 respectively (T72A, T72B, T80U, T90 SACLOS IR-BR missile), with modernisation of Invar-M in 2006, Kombat, another 125mm ATGM was introduced in 2001.

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RE: Modern vehicles and weapons, and their use - 3/5/2013 4:59:31 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

You can't move while the launcher is in the firing position due to safety, tracking of the target and the chance of cutting the wire command link. Hitting the pivot steers (which you should never do on land) with the launcher in the up position increases the odds of a turn over.

One of the main reasons the Tow is not mounted on tanks....the Tank is assault weapon the Tow is not, it's a support weapons system. Technically when the enemy hit the stand-off range of the tow...in a tow section, one tow stands fast in a overwatch position as the other finds a new/hull down position. Then he covers for the other as he falls back. While this is on going the tanks and dragons are engaging. The tows at that point had already engaged out to they max range. And hopefully lower the enemies number before they engaged the Tanks, dragons and so on. You only pop smoke when you have no choice, you always,always try to keep your firing position hidden-always. What can be seen on the battlefield, can be killed.

THIS is the kind of answer I was asking for! Thank you!

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 18
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