P-47 Production Gap
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
P-47 Production Gap
I have a question; playing DaIronBabes Scen 30.
It looks like the P-47 is not in production for several months; the P47D25 is in production from 3/44 through 6/44, at a rate of 175 per month.
But when this plane terminates, the next model, the P-47N, doesn't start production until 3/45.
If I am reading this correctly, there is no P-47 production from 7/44 through 2/45
Is that right? At 175 a month, you would get something like 750, but that won't last that long in combat
Is this WAD?
It looks like the P-47 is not in production for several months; the P47D25 is in production from 3/44 through 6/44, at a rate of 175 per month.
But when this plane terminates, the next model, the P-47N, doesn't start production until 3/45.
If I am reading this correctly, there is no P-47 production from 7/44 through 2/45
Is that right? At 175 a month, you would get something like 750, but that won't last that long in combat
Is this WAD?
RE: P-47 Production Gap
Jocke just pointed that out to me recently. I wouldn't worry too much! By then you'll be getting 5:1 or better with those planes anyway. [;)]
I think you start to get some Brit P-47s around that time as well. Maybe 40 a month? Can't remember correctly. But between those, the Corsairs, the Spit VIII and the P-38 variants you have a bunch of planes that crush any Japanese resistance. Add to that the profusion of Hellcats and the Allies shouldn't have too much trouble ruling the skies.
PS - Might be more than 750 also if some arrive in groups.
I think you start to get some Brit P-47s around that time as well. Maybe 40 a month? Can't remember correctly. But between those, the Corsairs, the Spit VIII and the P-38 variants you have a bunch of planes that crush any Japanese resistance. Add to that the profusion of Hellcats and the Allies shouldn't have too much trouble ruling the skies.
PS - Might be more than 750 also if some arrive in groups.
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- Canoerebel
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RE: P-47 Production Gap
It's pretty much a myth that Allied late-generation fighters crush Japanese late-generation fighters. At least against a good IJ player. Even the P-47s and Corsairs can get chewed up so that you seldom have enough. It seems that the only folks who think Allied late-war fighters are kryptonite to Super Man are folks who haven't played into the late war to discover just how tough it can be on the Allies.
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RE: P-47 Production Gap
Define late Canoerebel [:)]. I am in 8/44 and my planes ARE getting eaten alive by the Allies. I agree in '43 I held my own much better, but not any longer.
I actually had a sweep with 70 Corsairs (do not recall what version) last turn (8/11/1944) while I a good mix of about 140 fighters (Jacks v5, Georges v2, etc) and they lost ZERO lol. I lost about 10 so not too bad imho. A lot of Corsairs got beat up though so have no idea of if those made it back to base or not.
So according to your comment, I must not be a very good player as Japan (which I freely admit is a definate possibility [:)]) or my point in the games is later than what you consider late.
Edit: had the date wrong [:(]
I actually had a sweep with 70 Corsairs (do not recall what version) last turn (8/11/1944) while I a good mix of about 140 fighters (Jacks v5, Georges v2, etc) and they lost ZERO lol. I lost about 10 so not too bad imho. A lot of Corsairs got beat up though so have no idea of if those made it back to base or not.
So according to your comment, I must not be a very good player as Japan (which I freely admit is a definate possibility [:)]) or my point in the games is later than what you consider late.
Edit: had the date wrong [:(]
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RE: P-47 Production Gap
The main problem with the short run of the P47D25 is that once it phases out I foresee the allies really suffering from US army fighter shortage. It doesn´t pick up until the P51D kicks in around 11/44 with some 120 per months. So the allies are basically stuck with 110 decent army fighters per month (80 P38s and 30 P51B). This at a time when the Jap players churn out some 2500 fighters per month...
So the USMC and USN will have to take on a lot of the fighting in mid 44. Playing as the allies even in 44 is a constant struggle against the pools.
So the USMC and USN will have to take on a lot of the fighting in mid 44. Playing as the allies even in 44 is a constant struggle against the pools.
RE: P-47 Production Gap
A case can be made that when Japanese production exceeds a certain amount or when the war is not going well enough for them that the Allies would adjust by sending more fighters to the Pacific theaters. But that does not happen in this game. So what we have is a management issue. There are two distinct sides to it: the raw numbers and the rate per month. As far as the raw numbers, you get 700 of that model as replacements, plus any squadrons that arrive equipped with it (I don't recall if any do or not). That's it. The 175 per month for four months is all of them. Worried about the gap between the end of production of that model and the beginning of production of the next model? Manage those 700 carefully. If you like you can pretend that it's really only 70 per month and not allow yourself to commit more than that number. However you do it, just manage them carefully! [8D]
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RE: P-47 Production Gap
It probably represents the priority the P-47 was getting in Europe. In 6/44 Europe had the Normandy invasion and the 9th AF had a huge demand for P-47s for the next 9 months. The P-47s were tough and good ground attack platforms, but German flak ate up a lot of them.
Bill
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RE: P-47 Production Gap
I am in late June '44 and as a result of this thread just realised I am about to lose production of my "go to" fighter. Thanks for depressing me guys.
I have to say though '44 as the Allies aint what it is cracked up to be. In July '44 you lose 2/3d's of your USAAF fighter production - remaining P-40 production (55 per month) and P-47 production (175 per month). This leaves you with 80 P-38's and 30 P-51B's only. Facing Frank's and Georges in virtually unlimited numbers with a USAAF production of 110 fighters per month is not exactly overwhelming. On the USN side you do get an increase of 50 planes per month in Hellcat production but still total US fighter production drops by 180 per month. That really sucks!!!
Andrew
I have to say though '44 as the Allies aint what it is cracked up to be. In July '44 you lose 2/3d's of your USAAF fighter production - remaining P-40 production (55 per month) and P-47 production (175 per month). This leaves you with 80 P-38's and 30 P-51B's only. Facing Frank's and Georges in virtually unlimited numbers with a USAAF production of 110 fighters per month is not exactly overwhelming. On the USN side you do get an increase of 50 planes per month in Hellcat production but still total US fighter production drops by 180 per month. That really sucks!!!
Andrew
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RE: P-47 Production Gap
ORIGINAL: aoffen
I am in late June '44 and as a result of this thread just realised I am about to lose production of my "go to" fighter. Thanks for depressing me guys.
I have to say though '44 as the Allies aint what it is cracked up to be. In July '44 you lose 2/3d's of your USAAF fighter production - remaining P-40 production (55 per month) and P-47 production (175 per month). This leaves you with 80 P-38's and 30 P-51B's only. Facing Frank's and Georges in virtually unlimited numbers with a USAAF production of 110 fighters per month is not exactly overwhelming. On the USN side you do get an increase of 50 planes per month in Hellcat production but still total US fighter production drops by 180 per month. That really sucks!!!
Andrew
Every new unit comes fuly stocked. Folks make too much of production rates.
And if you doggie-lovers would just execute a NAVAL campaign in 1944, as Nimitz intended, you'd have plenty of planes. He got a carrier-class. What did MacArthur get? A really, really ugly memorial in . . . Norfolk, Virgina! [8D]
The Moose
RE: P-47 Production Gap
Wow, never even considered anywhere near that nor ever seen it ... would take 5,000,000 supply just to build that capacity, or 50% of one years' supply production. Players who do this, do their troops just starve? I'm not even looking at the HI balance.ORIGINAL: JocMeister
...This at a time when the Jap players churn out some 2500 fighters per month...
And then, where do you put them? You haven't enough groups to use anywhere near that number of planes unless you are losing +50/day. And if you are losing 50/day, your pilot experience would be 40 in a few months as you can't train anywhere near 1500 pilots/month. The most groups I can stash for training get me ~600 fighter pilots/mo (IJN+IJA) at best, usually far fewer. And if you're not losing that many planes, then once your pools get too big, the planes just start converting to 2 resource each. Wow.
I must be really doing something wrong ... [;)]
PS: the only way I can see doing this is if the IJ is really on a roll ... if you conquer India completely and then take OZ and NZ ... yeah, your conquests can net you enough fuel, supply and HI to do this. But then not very many people in a PBEM have been that successful. So if someone who hasn't taken large chunks of ahistorical areas and tries to build this ... and you still face the issue of trained pilots. Where/how do you train 2500 fighter pilots/month? that is at least 50 groups dedicated to training....
Pax
RE: P-47 Production Gap
aoffen, have you actually played Japan and produced that number of planes? If so, please tell us how? I have beefed up my air production pretty good and am producing around 1,800/month while still managing to keep my HI pool growing slightly in 8/44. This is with all merchent production turned off too btw. My HI growth also takes into the account of spending about 40K/month pilot training. So where you get this fantasy of 2,500 planes per month with an Japanese economy that will not crash and burn before '44 is over, I have no idea.
Like PacMondo said, even if you did produce that many, where the hell would you put them? You cannot make new squadrons to put the planes in and the ones that you fight with only get 12/week to build them back up again. even when kamis come in you can still only build the squadrons back up at the 12/week (unless you upgrade twice which also has it's demerits).
Last but not least, as Japan you do not have the AFs or support at most AFs to have huge number of planes outside the home is. If I had double the number of planes I do now, it would make no difference in my abilities to fend off the Allied sweeps and bombing runs. Plus my HI would be about zero now and my ground troops would suck even more than they do now [:(]
To be honest, if I ever play the Allies and japan is producing 2,500 planes a month, I would be estatic. As I know that by '44, they economy would be in ruins and could walk into Japan with no problems [:D]
Like PacMondo said, even if you did produce that many, where the hell would you put them? You cannot make new squadrons to put the planes in and the ones that you fight with only get 12/week to build them back up again. even when kamis come in you can still only build the squadrons back up at the 12/week (unless you upgrade twice which also has it's demerits).
Last but not least, as Japan you do not have the AFs or support at most AFs to have huge number of planes outside the home is. If I had double the number of planes I do now, it would make no difference in my abilities to fend off the Allied sweeps and bombing runs. Plus my HI would be about zero now and my ground troops would suck even more than they do now [:(]
To be honest, if I ever play the Allies and japan is producing 2,500 planes a month, I would be estatic. As I know that by '44, they economy would be in ruins and could walk into Japan with no problems [:D]
RE: P-47 Production Gap
2500 is absurdly high. Although pilots are usually less of a problem because you are mostly fighting on the defensive over your own bases and you also lose a lot of planes on the ground when the heavies come visiting.
You can also pull 36 planes a week rather than 12 however as you can split most IJN/IJAAF groups, pull replacements and then recombine them. This intermittently allows 12 planes in reserve too!
You can also pull 36 planes a week rather than 12 however as you can split most IJN/IJAAF groups, pull replacements and then recombine them. This intermittently allows 12 planes in reserve too!
RE: P-47 Production Gap
Hey, don't shout at me, I never said anything about 2,500 plans per month[&:]. I have no idea how many my opponent is producing, I just know its more than me. I was simply having a whinge about losing 2/3rds of my USAAF production ast a time I am trying to crank up the pressure. As to production numbers not being important, that certainly isn't my experience. If you never plan on using those shiny new units then fine, but the moment you get into serious combat the size of your airframe and pilot pools are the key determinant of how long you can sustain combat operations.ORIGINAL: Numdydar
aoffen, have you actually played Japan and produced that number of planes? If so, please tell us how? I have beefed up my air production pretty good and am producing around 1,800/month while still managing to keep my HI pool growing slightly in 8/44. This is with all merchent production turned off too btw. My HI growth also takes into the account of spending about 40K/month pilot training. So where you get this fantasy of 2,500 planes per month with an Japanese economy that will not crash and burn before '44 is over, I have no idea.
Cheers
Andrew
RE: P-47 Production Gap
My production in my longest-running game by 6/44 is some 1220 fighters per month, only 625 of which belong to models that can somewhat compete with Thuds/Spits/Corsairs (I'm still making lots of Zeroes and Oscars, primarily because the supply cost of repurposing factories is prohibitive). And I might have ruined the Japanese economy to obtain even that (in fact, my troops do starve here and there).ORIGINAL: JocMeisterThis at a time when the Jap players churn out some 2500 fighters per month...
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RE: P-47 Production Gap
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: aoffen
I am in late June '44 and as a result of this thread just realised I am about to lose production of my "go to" fighter. Thanks for depressing me guys.
I have to say though '44 as the Allies aint what it is cracked up to be. In July '44 you lose 2/3d's of your USAAF fighter production - remaining P-40 production (55 per month) and P-47 production (175 per month). This leaves you with 80 P-38's and 30 P-51B's only. Facing Frank's and Georges in virtually unlimited numbers with a USAAF production of 110 fighters per month is not exactly overwhelming. On the USN side you do get an increase of 50 planes per month in Hellcat production but still total US fighter production drops by 180 per month. That really sucks!!!
Andrew
Every new unit comes fuly stocked. Folks make too much of production rates.
And if you doggie-lovers would just execute a NAVAL campaign in 1944, as Nimitz intended, you'd have plenty of planes. He got a carrier-class. What did MacArthur get? A really, really ugly memorial in . . . Norfolk, Virgina! [8D]
Yep, but the Allied player still has to look ahead and plan for the gap-especially in scen. 2. But the navy and marines can pick up the slack. Allied nations start to pick up production as well, so with care it turns out Ok. With new squadrons Allies get about 900-1,000. make it work.....
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RE: P-47 Production Gap
I humbly appoligize to aoffen for attributing the 2,500/month to him as he was not the one that brought it up. I also want to thank Capt Hornblower for pointing that out [:)]
I am also glad to see that JocMeister (who was the one that DID post the 2,500 number) revise that number down to a much more reasonable 1,500/month [:)]. Those damn 1 and 2 keys are just too close together [:D]
So we should all be good now [:)]. If not, I am sure someone will point it out to me lol.
I am also glad to see that JocMeister (who was the one that DID post the 2,500 number) revise that number down to a much more reasonable 1,500/month [:)]. Those damn 1 and 2 keys are just too close together [:D]
So we should all be good now [:)]. If not, I am sure someone will point it out to me lol.
RE: P-47 Production Gap
I had a snicker at the "only 1500" comment. I guess a mere 10 times allied production is just a trifle compared to the exaggerated 2500 comment heh.
RE: P-47 Production Gap
The gap is what the P39 is for!
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RE: P-47 Production Gap
ORIGINAL: JeffK
The gap is what the P39 is for!
Very helpful. Thanks a bunch!!!!!