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Economics Imbalance - 2/25/2013 6:21:08 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 596
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
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One big difference between Time of Fury and Strategic War in Europe is how the economics work, or more accurately don't work at normal difficulty. I find that in the 1939 scenario as Germany that it basically has a negative production point total to begin the game which makes it impossible to do research in a manner that would allow us to reach the 1941 scenario setup levels. No way the USA can achieve three nuclear research lightbulbs with it's anemic production early on from 1939 to where it has those 3 lightbulbs for the 1941 scenario start.

I have noticed that as a percentage of production that upkeep in ToF is way higher than in SWiE. Granted that SWiE has monthly turns and therefor needs to give us 4 times as many net disposable PP's than ToF but it looks like SWiE is more like 40 times as generous as ToF. I've noticed that the upkeep in SWiE is extremely low compared to ToF. That makes me wonder if the upkeep cost in ToF is too high and needs to be dumbed down some so that the German player has positive net disposable PP's on turn 2 of the 1939 scenario. Granted Germany was not on a real war economy footing to start the war but it seems like in ToF Germany has overbuilt it's army and has to wait a while before the War Economy multiple rises to support the already built forces and begin to have some extra to save up for research. While I used Germany as my example this goes for basically every country except perhaps the Soviet Union which seems to have a very low upkeep compared to production.

I hope this gets rethought and corrected so that the 1939 start can yield us players some way to come much closer to achieving 1941 amounts for research and units built at normal difficulty.
Omnius
Post #: 1
RE: Economics Imbalance - 2/25/2013 8:18:52 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5322
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
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This is really hard issue.
I can try to balance it a little bit for German favor in the next patch.


Another thing is that I would like to ask to avoid comparing Time of Fury and Strategic War in Europe.
The second one is much "lighter" game

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Post #: 2
RE: Economics Imbalance - 2/26/2013 12:51:05 PM   
Meteor2


Posts: 190
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline
Hello Doomtrader,

Omnius is quite right here and because I like the game in generell very much, please have a look into this issue.
I think, ToF covers the span between HoI (Paradox) and SC (Battlefront) very well and needs / deserves a good presentation with few issues.

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Post #: 3
Comparing Games - 2/26/2013 4:04:56 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 596
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

This is really hard issue.
I can try to balance it a little bit for German favor in the next patch.


Another thing is that I would like to ask to avoid comparing Time of Fury and Strategic War in Europe.
The second one is much "lighter" game


doomtrader,
Sorry but Strategic War in Europe is a spin off of the Time of Fury game system which is a spin off of earlier Wasteland games. I think of SWiE as being ToF "lite" for sure but it is a good way to learn the basic game system used by both games. I do think a comparison of the ecponomics between the two games is worth discussing since SWiE seems better at achieving a better balance between production and upkeep. Funny that for being a much "lighter" game SWiE has a tougher nut to crack for Norway with 3 VP cities instead of just 2 in ToF.

It's not just the Germans I'm complaining about being under performing for economics but pretty much every country except the USSR when run by the AI. The starting negative economic production for Germany in 1939 does make it tough on getting ready for attacking France and the USSR.
Omnius

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 4
RE: Comparing Games - 2/26/2013 9:35:56 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5322
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
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IIRC the German economy is balanced close to 0 in 1939 in ToF

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Post #: 5
RE: Comparing Games - 2/27/2013 4:48:11 AM   
Razz


Posts: 2541
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

This is really hard issue.
I can try to balance it a little bit for German favor in the next patch.


Another thing is that I would like to ask to avoid comparing Time of Fury and Strategic War in Europe.
The second one is much "lighter" game


doomtrader,
Sorry but Strategic War in Europe is a spin off of the Time of Fury game system which is a spin off of earlier Wasteland games. I think of SWiE as being ToF "lite" for sure but it is a good way to learn the basic game system used by both games. I do think a comparison of the ecponomics between the two games is worth discussing since SWiE seems better at achieving a better balance between production and upkeep. Funny that for being a much "lighter" game SWiE has a tougher nut to crack for Norway with 3 VP cities instead of just 2 in ToF.

It's not just the Germans I'm complaining about being under performing for economics but pretty much every country except the USSR when run by the AI. The starting negative economic production for Germany in 1939 does make it tough on getting ready for attacking France and the USSR.
Omnius


You are right in your analysis. This is why it is fixed in the Third Reich Scenario.

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Post #: 6
Close to Zero a Zero - 2/27/2013 4:54:48 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 596
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

IIRC the German economy is balanced close to 0 in 1939 in ToF


doomtrader,
The German economy is balanced close to zero in the 1939 scenario but if we pump any units up with the starting PP's then it definitely goes negative. I think you shaved it way too close to zero at normal level. I know historically Germany was not on a war footing economy to start the war but in every other WW2 game that allows for production there is a more positive production level that allows for some improvement in the German military from turn 1. You've turned Germany into a Beggar state for the 1939 scenario, actually almost every country seems economically deprived except perhaps the USSR.

I still think the problem lies with a too high upkeep percentage as regards production. The German upkeep is staggering at the beginning while the Soviet upkeep is laughably low. Then the USSR gains War Economy percentage with the phony dragged out war with Finland. The USSR should not have it's War Economy raised by war with Finland, it didn't historically.
Omnius

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 7
RE: Close to Zero a Zero - 2/27/2013 5:11:49 PM   
gwgardner

 

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The balance close to zero during the period of the phony war is historically accurate, and I hope Doomtrader does not move off that in a future patch. If the player wants to experiment with a higher German budget, then he can play on easy or mod the scenario.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 8
RE: Close to Zero a Zero - 2/27/2013 8:19:47 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1996
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From: Bedfordshire UK
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Seems reasonable that the Germans, or any other nation, should have some production capability at the beginning of a scenario, I assume the PP design decision was taken after game balance considerations, which Doomtrader said would be looked into.

Pending that process, this doesn't even need a mod, if a player is dissatisfied with design decisions on PP levels they can instantly reset them for any nation with F12. This game gives the player so much control

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Post #: 9
Why Bother with F12 - 2/27/2013 9:22:21 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 596
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

Seems reasonable that the Germans, or any other nation, should have some production capability at the beginning of a scenario, I assume the PP design decision was taken after game balance considerations, which Doomtrader said would be looked into.

Pending that process, this doesn't even need a mod, if a player is dissatisfied with design decisions on PP levels they can instantly reset them for any nation with F12. This game gives the player so much control


Rasputitsa,
Heck why bother with the F12 cheat key that causes a report to rat on you for cheating when it is so easy to just quit to desktop and open the saved game files in OpenOffice to add PP's with impunity and no cheating reports? I think the game gives players way too much control being able to edit saved game files. I would rate Time of Fury's saved game file system an "F-" for data integrity and I would never play it PBEM knowing that there is no data integrity for saved games. On the other hand it does allow us to have some fun playing by ourselves being able to edit stuff like Diplomatic Points, Or Amphibious Invasion Points of how close a neutral country is to joining an alliance.

However regardless of whether we can edit pretty much anything from OpenOffice except the map it's still not a substitute for a scenario design to be done properly. The scenario designer needs to fix obvious errors in the scenario design that get pointed out. Otherwise customers like me who want a proper scenario design aren't likely to buy more Wastelands products if these scenarios aren't fixed up when obvious errors are reported.
Omnius

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 10
RE: Why Bother with F12 - 2/27/2013 10:36:05 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1996
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
Seems reasonable that the Germans, or any other nation, should have some production capability at the beginning of a scenario, I assume the PP design decision was taken after game balance considerations, which Doomtrader said would be looked into.

Pending that process, this doesn't even need a mod, if a player is dissatisfied with design decisions on PP levels they can instantly reset them for any nation with F12. This game gives the player so much control


Rasputitsa,
Heck why bother with the F12 cheat key that causes a report to rat on you for cheating when it is so easy to just quit to desktop and open the saved game files in OpenOffice to add PP's with impunity and no cheating reports? I think the game gives players way too much control being able to edit saved game files. I would rate Time of Fury's saved game file system an "F-" for data integrity and I would never play it PBEM knowing that there is no data integrity for saved games. On the other hand it does allow us to have some fun playing by ourselves being able to edit stuff like Diplomatic Points, Or Amphibious Invasion Points of how close a neutral country is to joining an alliance.

However regardless of whether we can edit pretty much anything from OpenOffice except the map it's still not a substitute for a scenario design to be done properly. The scenario designer needs to fix obvious errors in the scenario design that get pointed out. Otherwise customers like me who want a proper scenario design aren't likely to buy more Wastelands products if these scenarios aren't fixed up when obvious errors are reported.
Omnius

Omnius
Obviously we would like to see the errors in the scenarios fixed, but in the mean time and it could be a while, it seems sensible to use the features available to correct such errors. The integrity of PBEM games is a different issue and will still be problem even if all the scenarios were perfect. I am happy to use whatever adjustments I can get to provide a more challenging and historically accurate game, which so far I have found very rewarding.

Razz has updated his 'Third Reich' mod' and, if the editor was easier to use, there would be many more player designed mods, which would make the game more varied and playable. Without a reliable editor, the game cannot easily grow beyond the stock scenarios.

However, in a forest of priorities, which issues get fixed is problematic.


_____________________________

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(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 11
Possibilities - 2/28/2013 4:15:12 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 596
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
Omnius
Obviously we would like to see the errors in the scenarios fixed, but in the mean time and it could be a while, it seems sensible to use the features available to correct such errors. The integrity of PBEM games is a different issue and will still be problem even if all the scenarios were perfect. I am happy to use whatever adjustments I can get to provide a more challenging and historically accurate game, which so far I have found very rewarding.

Razz has updated his 'Third Reich' mod' and, if the editor was easier to use, there would be many more player designed mods, which would make the game more varied and playable. Without a reliable editor, the game cannot easily grow beyond the stock scenarios.

However, in a forest of priorities, which issues get fixed is problematic.



Rasputitsa,
While the game system's saved game files aren't good for PBEM security they do lend themselves to allowing us to have some fun with possibilities in solitaire play. I'm waiting for the new 1.04 version to come out so that I can have a little fun with the 1939 scenario. I like being able to get rid of the 999 turn unit freezes. One fun thing I see is to play every country and edit research lightbulbs in for each country so that even neutral countries get better units over time. I also want to edit in more DP's so I can get every country involved, even Persia. Since each country has a favored alliance that makes it easy to give major countries DP's to pressure neutrals into joining b y also upping alliance entry to 90. Or just declare war on a country like Switzerland as Germany.

There are some tweaks Razz made in his Third Reich mod that I don't care for, I tend to try to play the stock scenarios so that if something goes wrong I know it's not the mod that messed up. I just wish doomtrader would address getting the editor to work for all of us, not just a few. I wish I could get the editor to work so I could eliminate Slovakia amd just make it part of Germany the way it should be, same with Croatia in the 1941 scenario. I'm thinking I can get a Polish unit to conquer Slovakia on turn 1 by making sure to give it enough AP's to get to Slovakia's capital on turn 1.

The most important things in a game is getting the game mechanics to work properly plus having well done scenarios that don't need to be fixed except for having fun with a hypothetical situation. Having fun should not have to be so much work.
Omnius

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 12
RE: Possibilities - 2/28/2013 5:59:05 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1996
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
Omnius
Obviously we would like to see the errors in the scenarios fixed, but in the mean time and it could be a while, it seems sensible to use the features available to correct such errors. The integrity of PBEM games is a different issue and will still be problem even if all the scenarios were perfect. I am happy to use whatever adjustments I can get to provide a more challenging and historically accurate game, which so far I have found very rewarding.

Razz has updated his 'Third Reich' mod' and, if the editor was easier to use, there would be many more player designed mods, which would make the game more varied and playable. Without a reliable editor, the game cannot easily grow beyond the stock scenarios.

However, in a forest of priorities, which issues get fixed is problematic.

Rasputitsa,
While the game system's saved game files aren't good for PBEM security they do lend themselves to allowing us to have some fun with possibilities in solitaire play. I'm waiting for the new 1.04 version to come out so that I can have a little fun with the 1939 scenario. I like being able to get rid of the 999 turn unit freezes. One fun thing I see is to play every country and edit research lightbulbs in for each country so that even neutral countries get better units over time. I also want to edit in more DP's so I can get every country involved, even Persia. Since each country has a favored alliance that makes it easy to give major countries DP's to pressure neutrals into joining b y also upping alliance entry to 90. Or just declare war on a country like Switzerland as Germany.

There are some tweaks Razz made in his Third Reich mod that I don't care for, I tend to try to play the stock scenarios so that if something goes wrong I know it's not the mod that messed up. I just wish doomtrader would address getting the editor to work for all of us, not just a few. I wish I could get the editor to work so I could eliminate Slovakia amd just make it part of Germany the way it should be, same with Croatia in the 1941 scenario. I'm thinking I can get a Polish unit to conquer Slovakia on turn 1 by making sure to give it enough AP's to get to Slovakia's capital on turn 1.

The most important things in a game is getting the game mechanics to work properly plus having well done scenarios that don't need to be fixed except for having fun with a hypothetical situation. Having fun should not have to be so much work.
Omnius


Even those of us that can run the editor find it sometimes problematic to use, making small adjustments step by step, so that if there is a crash you can see what caused it.

I find the F12 feature very useful for fine tuning the game without having to resort to mods. It does allow you to adjust a nation's PP and DP levels during the game. I use it for limited transfer of PPs between nations of the same side (as happened historically, e.g. the Germans providing resources for minor allies) and to create a national stockpile of PPs for future offensives. PPs drain away as you play your turn and before you know it they are all gone, I think it reasonable to use F12 to deduct a limited number of PPs at the beginning of each turn. This represents a nation progressively building up a stockpile of resources, which can be added back into the nation's PP total when needed for major operations. There has to be a limit on how quickly a stockpile can be built up, a maximum level of PPs which can be stored and how quickly they can be added back into the nation's PP account (there has to be limits, as resources cannot be easily moved and stored).


_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 13
Possibilities - 3/2/2013 4:01:17 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 596
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

Even those of us that can run the editor find it sometimes problematic to use, making small adjustments step by step, so that if there is a crash you can see what caused it.

I find the F12 feature very useful for fine tuning the game without having to resort to mods. It does allow you to adjust a nation's PP and DP levels during the game. I use it for limited transfer of PPs between nations of the same side (as happened historically, e.g. the Germans providing resources for minor allies) and to create a national stockpile of PPs for future offensives. PPs drain away as you play your turn and before you know it they are all gone, I think it reasonable to use F12 to deduct a limited number of PPs at the beginning of each turn. This represents a nation progressively building up a stockpile of resources, which can be added back into the nation's PP total when needed for major operations. There has to be a limit on how quickly a stockpile can be built up, a maximum level of PPs which can be stored and how quickly they can be added back into the nation's PP account (there has to be limits, as resources cannot be easily moved and stored).



Rasputitsa,
That's interesting to know that we can use F12 for editing DP's, that wasn't made clear before. Seems like a bit of work trying to deduct PP's to form a stockpile for future reference, would require some out-of-game bookkeepping. That is interesting for using it for transfers between countries, one way to balance out the wicked, evil programming that screwed up the British Colony resource convoys.

I found in SWiE that it really isn't much work quitting to desktop to use OpenOffice to edit the spreadsheets, comes in real handy for editing the relations file because some of the scenarios in SWiE don't have the relations set [properly, some countries in some scenarios are part of an alliance yet at war with no one and no way to get them at war inside the game. Of course in ToF the opening part of the program takes longer, wish we could just turn that intro video off completely if it isn't going to show anyway.
Omnius

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 14
RE: Possibilities - 3/3/2013 4:02:36 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1996
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

Even those of us that can run the editor find it sometimes problematic to use, making small adjustments step by step, so that if there is a crash you can see what caused it.

I find the F12 feature very useful for fine tuning the game without having to resort to mods. It does allow you to adjust a nation's PP and DP levels during the game. I use it for limited transfer of PPs between nations of the same side (as happened historically, e.g. the Germans providing resources for minor allies) and to create a national stockpile of PPs for future offensives. PPs drain away as you play your turn and before you know it they are all gone, I think it reasonable to use F12 to deduct a limited number of PPs at the beginning of each turn. This represents a nation progressively building up a stockpile of resources, which can be added back into the nation's PP total when needed for major operations. There has to be a limit on how quickly a stockpile can be built up, a maximum level of PPs which can be stored and how quickly they can be added back into the nation's PP account (there has to be limits, as resources cannot be easily moved and stored).



Rasputitsa,
That's interesting to know that we can use F12 for editing DP's, that wasn't made clear before. Seems like a bit of work trying to deduct PP's to form a stockpile for future reference, would require some out-of-game bookkeepping. That is interesting for using it for transfers between countries, one way to balance out the wicked, evil programming that screwed up the British Colony resource convoys.



I run the game in windowed format so that I can have the game manual open in the background and also an open MS 'notepad' window. That way I can click between the game screen and the notepad file to make notes, do book-keeping and reminders of what I need to be doing each turn. I also have 'Fraps' open so that I can save screen shots, again as a reminder of the situation and to keep a saved image record of what has been revealed by air recon.

The 'windowed' game screen leaves a border where the desktop is visible and when the notepad window is properly adjusted for size (so that it shows top and bottom of the game screen), it is available to instantly click and bring into the foreground, it is quick and easy to click between the screens.



The whole package means I play better, get more deeply into planning and get more immersion in the game. It handles the out-of-game book-keeping, although I would prefer that the game did more, but realistically how much can be built into the game and when ?

I am always looking for ways to make the game more realistic and challenging for play against the AI and creating stockpiles of PPs is a realistic strategy to use, provided there are limitations on how quickly you can build up the stored PPs and a realistic maximum total that can be set aside.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 3/3/2013 4:20:34 PM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 15
RE: Possibilities - 3/4/2013 8:08:08 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1996
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius
I found in SWiE that it really isn't much work quitting to desktop to use OpenOffice to edit the spreadsheets, comes in real handy for editing the relations file because some of the scenarios in SWiE don't have the relations set [properly, some countries in some scenarios are part of an alliance yet at war with no one and no way to get them at war inside the game. Of course in ToF the opening part of the program takes longer, wish we could just turn that intro video off completely if it isn't going to show anyway.
Omnius


You can skip the opening intro screens of TOF by hitting ESC, or mouse click, until it gets to the Time of Fury game start screen.


< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 3/4/2013 4:08:47 PM >

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 16
Doesn't Work so Well - 3/4/2013 5:21:09 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 596
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

You can skip the opening intro screens of TOF by hitting ESC, or mouse click, until it gets to the Time of Fury game start screen.



Rasputitsa,
Thanks for the tip but I have tried the esc key and mouse clicks, multiple times, and it really doesn't seem to speed up the loading process. Too bad there isn't a way to add a "key" to the icon for booting up the program that tells the program to skip the intro videos. I just try to be patient.
Omnius

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 17
Too Much Information - 3/4/2013 5:27:39 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 596
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

I run the game in windowed format so that I can have the game manual open in the background and also an open MS 'notepad' window. That way I can click between the game screen and the notepad file to make notes, do book-keeping and reminders of what I need to be doing each turn. I also have 'Fraps' open so that I can save screen shots, again as a reminder of the situation and to keep a saved image record of what has been revealed by air recon.

The 'windowed' game screen leaves a border where the desktop is visible and when the notepad window is properly adjusted for size (so that it shows top and bottom of the game screen), it is available to instantly click and bring into the foreground, it is quick and easy to click between the screens.

The whole package means I play better, get more deeply into planning and get more immersion in the game. It handles the out-of-game book-keeping, although I would prefer that the game did more, but realistically how much can be built into the game and when ?

I am always looking for ways to make the game more realistic and challenging for play against the AI and creating stockpiles of PPs is a realistic strategy to use, provided there are limitations on how quickly you can build up the stored PPs and a realistic maximum total that can be set aside.


Rasputitsa,
That's too much information for my old pea brain to absorb. That was an interesting screen garb. Personally I like to have my nice 27" iMac screen give me as much screen size possible so I can see more of the map. That is interesting how you keep track of stuff in notepad and have fraps open for screen grabs as well. Heck I just like to play simple and try to remember stuff with my old demented mind, good way to stave off Alzheimers. Who needs Sodoku when we can play war games? I did try the windowed mode once to do a screen grab.
Omnius

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 18
RE: Too Much Information - 3/4/2013 8:15:13 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1996
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

I run the game in windowed format so that I can have the game manual open in the background and also an open MS 'notepad' window. That way I can click between the game screen and the notepad file to make notes, do book-keeping and reminders of what I need to be doing each turn. I also have 'Fraps' open so that I can save screen shots, again as a reminder of the situation and to keep a saved image record of what has been revealed by air recon.

The 'windowed' game screen leaves a border where the desktop is visible and when the notepad window is properly adjusted for size (so that it shows top and bottom of the game screen), it is available to instantly click and bring into the foreground, it is quick and easy to click between the screens.

The whole package means I play better, get more deeply into planning and get more immersion in the game. It handles the out-of-game book-keeping, although I would prefer that the game did more, but realistically how much can be built into the game and when ?

I am always looking for ways to make the game more realistic and challenging for play against the AI and creating stockpiles of PPs is a realistic strategy to use, provided there are limitations on how quickly you can build up the stored PPs and a realistic maximum total that can be set aside.


Rasputitsa,
That's too much information for my old pea brain to absorb. That was an interesting screen garb. Personally I like to have my nice 27" iMac screen give me as much screen size possible so I can see more of the map. That is interesting how you keep track of stuff in notepad and have fraps open for screen grabs as well. Heck I just like to play simple and try to remember stuff with my old demented mind, good way to stave off Alzheimers. Who needs Sodoku when we can play war games? I did try the windowed mode once to do a screen grab.
Omnius


My high mileage brain needs all the help it can get and multiple screens does that, as with the game, I use anything that will work, to make it easier.


_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 19
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