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CTDs with 257 - 2/22/2013 5:03:16 PM   
phoenix

 

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Dave, I just wrote this, in another thread:

I'm suddenly getting loads of CTDs too, Dazkaz. It's when you put the cursor down to place the task marker for a new order - doesn't seem to matter what. Not sure what to do about it. I saved the game I was playing just before a perfectly repeatable CTD (it repeated, exactly, from the save, every time I tried the new order), then loaded it into my new laptop (windows 8) - guess what? Won't crash. Works in windows 8..... But not in windows 7, which is my main machine. I will post a separate thread about it in the tech forum, see what Dave thinks. No point in sending him a save if it doesn't repeat on anything but my machine.
You don't happen to know if there's anything, any reason why it would start crashing suddenly? Like I said above - works fine on my new windows 8 machine (though that's not as fast as the windows 7 machine).

I have a save right before where it crashes. Not sure if it will repeat for you, though. I'll send you it anyway (I'll have to send you the cos file to go with it too, if that's ok, as I'm playing a butchered...err...customised scenario - my One Step at a Time scenario. Hope that's ok. I'll send them in 2 separate mails. Be very grateful if you could have a look, though, as I say, may not work for you.

EDIT: Scratch that. Tried to repeat again from the saves and it wouldn't. It's random, or feels like it. Won't send you any saves. No point, given that. Don't know what to do.

EDIT 2: It's doing it on the windows 8 computer now too.

Very frequent. Hard to play it. I would think it might be something in my customised cos file, except others reporting it too.



< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/22/2013 7:20:14 PM >
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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/22/2013 10:49:36 PM   
Arjuna


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Just send me the saves and cos files and I'll have a look.

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/23/2013 9:05:30 AM   
phoenix

 

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OK Dave. Many thanks.

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/23/2013 9:36:23 AM   
phoenix

 

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Save and Cos sent.

I wonder, could it have anything to do with me having 'converted' Maas-Rhein in the Mapmaker (saved it there to stop the long load times)? That was done under the orginal patch 4, and now we're onto 257. Just a thought.

Edit: Saved it again. That's not it. It crashes every five minutes or so on the Maas-Rhein map. Will have to try another. Didn't crash using 256.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/23/2013 10:38:55 PM >

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/24/2013 3:12:25 PM   
Ramses


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Ctd's are not something map related. Just experienced another one in the 'battle of the roadblocks' scenario, had several while playing the tutorial.

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/24/2013 10:11:30 PM   
Arjuna


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Were these CTDs occuring while the game was paused or running?

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/24/2013 10:48:21 PM   
phoenix

 

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Both, for me.

It must be something to do with the load on the processor, I think. I haven't had any whilst playing smaller scenarios. Though others have, I think.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/24/2013 10:49:36 PM >

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 7:11:39 AM   
Arjuna


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I doubt it has anything to do ith the load on the processor. Probably more to do with the changes we made to the UI before the last build. Trouble is I'm not getting these. I really need a save from which I can get these to repeat along with clear instructions about each specific step you took to bring about the CTD.

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 7:55:46 AM   
phoenix

 

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Thanks Dave. The save I sent you (with.cos) - see above and the email - have you tried that? All you would need to do is load the save (using that .cos) and run it for about five minutes (they've all got decent orders already - don't worry :)) then start placing some arty bombardments. Try it on pause, as that's what I normally do to place a bombard - I was taught, somewhere, that you have to pause it for the arty orders to work properly. I can't give you more specific instructions than this because, as I said, it's not consistent that any one unit does it from a save. But it is consistent that it crashes within ten minutes if you just keep placing orders in that time. Really, just run it for five minutes, then place any orders and within another five minutes, if you were on my system, it would CTD as you place one. Is that any good? Or did you try that save I sent you already? Desperate for a fix here, as can't really play my favourite scenario - Maas-Rhein. Cheers.

EDIT: I see you've replied elsewhere. Many thanks. Glad you found a lock up and fixed it! I'll go back to Maas-Rhein scenario and try to get a save right before a CTD, then send you that with detailed instructions as to what does it for me. Cheers.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/25/2013 8:01:50 AM >

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 12:26:26 PM   
phoenix

 

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Ok, Dave. I've played From the Meuse to the Rhine for about 3 hours now, with a CTD roughly every 5 minutes, but I cannot for the life of me get one to repeat from a save. I've honed it down so that a few times I've saved right before the action that prompts the CTD, but when I load up the save it will not repeat at all. I have no idea what to do. The saves do not take a snapshot of where you are, exactly, it seems. So if I save with a unit selected, for example, then when I load from the save the unit is not selected when I start, which means that in order to give it the command that caused the crash I have to first select it (again), so the saves are not, in other words, capturing the exact moment before the CTD, and cannot, because there is nearly always a unit selected when I get a CTD, but there are no units selected when I start from a save, even if I saved with the relevant unit selected.


I'll keep trying, but I'm gloomy about it. That scenario is unplayable for me, unless I save, literally, before every single order (and, actually, that's possible). Many others might be similar - I haven't really tried too many yet with 257. I'm just hoping someone else will be able to get a save for you, or that it vanishes when you fix other things from 257.


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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 1:52:33 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

I doubt it has anything to do ith the load on the processor. Probably more to do with the changes we made to the UI before the last build. Trouble is I'm not getting these. I really need a save from which I can get these to repeat along with clear instructions about each specific step you took to bring about the CTD.


You might want to check what's occurring with the processor outside of the game operation.

I'm in the habit of running the game without background programs (other than possibly Adobe Acrobat to keep the manual open in the background) on a Dell 8300 XPS Intel i5 3Ghz processor, 8 GB RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium, AMD 6450 Display adaptor (1920 X 1080 resolution) and haven't had any CDTs.

Learned from older games that leaving extra windows open for things like chat or e-mail notifications, Facebook updates, or a browser sometimes caused conflicts that could crash that game or force a switch from the game window to another running program's window when it seizes priority from the operating system.

So, BftB gets my "full" attention

Hope this helps.


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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 2:17:04 PM   
phoenix

 

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I have the identical same system, Jim :) I don't run anything in the background. The problem is new to build 257, for me. So not really inclined to blame the machine. Especially not since dave suggests it won't be the machine either. Are you playing build 257? Have you tried playing through From the Meuse to the Rhine?

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 3:02:42 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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Yes, and Yes.

And, I've developed and tested an alternate scenario including work with ScenMaker under the new patch.

Since Dave appeared to suggest that processor load from the game wouldn't be a problem, I offered a suggestion about how processor priority conflicts between the game and competing programs could cause problems, particularly since I don't see the symptom (CTD) and don't allow competing programs to interfere with my gameplaying.

Though my background is in US Army Logistics planning, I had a specialty in first analog, and later digital electronic troubleshooting for combat vehicle systems (fire control, communications, automotive power, and environmental control). It was "edge of technology" stuff for traditional logistics people who largely were content with managing existing systems instead of getting in early on vehicle design efforts to insert refinements / streamlining into those existing systems.

Toughest faults to isolate are those with intermittent symptoms whose cause(s) do not take into account potential causes not directly related to the observed phenomena (akin to tolerance stacking in statistics).

Worst of those intermittent faults are software driven failures until the software itself can be identified as an ambiguity of "one" (the only possible cause) because regression analysis was time consuming, manpower intensive, and not always definitive for software systems whose design and documentation was not tightly controlled.

Not saying that Panther has a poor design / documentation for its software (Dave's answers appear to indicate a pretty good idea of how the software is integrated and expected to function). Just that sometimes changing software because an online printer doesn't work is a waste of time until one checks to make sure the data cable is still connected before opening the program.

Hope this helps.



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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 3:08:43 PM   
phoenix

 

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Well, following on from your suggestion, Jim, I checked again what I had 'running'. I realised that around the time I installed 257 I also hooked up the click-free back up drive and installed its software. I unplugged the drive as soon as it had backed up, but I note in Msconfig that its software is still sitting there. Wonder if it's polling something or other every five minutes. It does seem very regular that I get a CTD every 5 mins. So, I've uninstalled that and run the game for about 30 mins now. No CTD! Fingers very crossed. Might not be it. But might be. In which case, thanks Jim, for the obvious hint (which I nevertheless forgot)! :) I'll keep you posted....

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 3:23:44 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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Keep in mind that the beta patch software now runs a game save every five minutes (don't recall if it's game time or real time).

If the CTDs coincide with the game save, could point to a trigger (if "true" then first I'd look at write permissions on the drive where the game is trying to write the saves).

Windows 7 has some pretty strict rules regarding who and what programs have permissions without user intervention.

Hope this helps.



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jim

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 3:25:38 PM   
phoenix

 

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Yeah, cheers. I have that switched off though. I think the click-free drive might be doing it. Thanks for the help, Jim.

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 6:36:14 PM   
phoenix

 

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Dave - as you see from the thread above, Jim caused me to double check possible background processess. Glad to reoprt that since I shut down the click free driver it hasn't crashed at all, in about 2 hours of play, on and off. Before it was every 5 mins. So, tentatively, sorry to have wasted your time! Hope others who have the CTD probs read this and also check what processes might be new and might clash (though how you determine that I've no idea). I'm not 100% certain I've solved it, but it's looking good so far. It doesn't answer why my laptop crashes it too - that doesn't have the click free thing, but it's windows 8 and new and God knows what's in there as I haven't got round to checking what it's running without my permission yet!

Edit: So far only 1 CTD in about 3 hours of playing. Vast improvement. It happened when I tried to lassoo 2 units, then give a joint Move order.

I'll try switching off McAfee next.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/25/2013 9:19:10 PM >

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/25/2013 10:22:31 PM   
Arjuna


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phoenix,

Thanks for the feedback and thanks to you to Jim.

Has anyone else experienced these CTDs? If so can you please check to see if you have this "click free" program running in the background.

Also phoenix could you try turning on the autosave ans see i you get the CTDs. I would like to rule this out as a possible cause.

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/26/2013 7:56:43 PM   
Ramses


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I have experienced a couple of ctd's after playing trying to play out the scenario from the savegame i sent you. But I got a new game stoppage that I have never seen before, not sure if it counts as a ctd. Being out of memory seems odd because In run the game on a corei7 with 8 gigs of ram.




Update: I can not pinpoint a single action that leads to a ctd. It does seem that every time it happens, the Gutmann hq is involved. Maybe the new code will prevent this from happening. I'll try to get to a certain point in the game where a ctd is contstanly reproducable. Until that time I'll keep my mouth shut over this matter.

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< Message edited by Ramses -- 2/26/2013 9:13:07 PM >

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/26/2013 8:27:02 PM   
phoenix

 

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deleted

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/26/2013 8:28:38 PM >

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/26/2013 9:52:23 PM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramses

I have experienced a couple of ctd's after playing trying to play out the scenario from the savegame i sent you. But I got a new game stoppage that I have never seen before, not sure if it counts as a ctd. Being out of memory seems odd because In run the game on a corei7 with 8 gigs of ram.




Update: I can not pinpoint a single action that leads to a ctd. It does seem that every time it happens, the Gutmann hq is involved. Maybe the new code will prevent this from happening. I'll try to get to a certain point in the game where a ctd is contstanly reproducable. Until that time I'll keep my mouth shut over this matter.


Oooh that's a worry. Sounds like a memory leak somewhere. And maybe that's why I don't see it occuring on my dev machine with its 18Gb of RAM. mmm...

Miquel,

How much RAM have you on your dev machine? Would you like to take a crack at finding this memory leak?

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/26/2013 9:53:57 PM   
Arjuna


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Miquel,

I have emailed you ramses saved game.

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/26/2013 11:28:40 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Miquel,

I have emailed you ramses saved game.


I've got 8GB's as well. I'll take a look at that Dave

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/27/2013 1:46:32 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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I've run Ramses' save (Autosave #2) till the end with no problems. See the screenshots below




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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/27/2013 1:47:32 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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And final situation




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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/27/2013 1:50:03 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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This was run on a Debug build of Command Ops (which has a bigger memory footprint that the Release versions distributed by Matrix). I'm now tracking with the Resource Monitor Command Ops process to see if there's any huge memory peak at some point during the execution.

This second run has gone one for five minutes now, and I see that it's using a very reasonable 100MBytes. Visual Studio 2010 takes up twice as much memory, in comparison.

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/27/2013 3:21:42 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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Got to the end of a second playthrough (see screenshots for the final situation). Tracking CmdOps with the task manager I see that the memory footprint evolves in the following manner:

Start 98MB
D2 0600 101MB
D2 1600 107MB
D2 2200 110MB
D3 0700 111MB
D3 1600 112MB
End 113MB

This looks to me very reasonable, given the amount of stuff that has been going on in the game.




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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/27/2013 3:22:35 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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And the final situation






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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/27/2013 3:25:56 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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Ramses, if you have Win7 Pro, you should have the Resources Monitor application available from the Task Manager. Could you run the your save in your machine and just let it go at medium speed without further input - as I've done - and see if the size of the Working Set of the CmdOps process follows a similar profile as it does on my machine?

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RE: CTDs with 257 - 2/27/2013 8:00:23 PM   
Ramses


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Thanks for looking into this matter Bletchley_Geek. I did precisely what you asked; as you can see the process does follow a very similar profile.

Start 88MB
D2 0600 91MB
D2 1600 94MB
D2 2200 95MB
D3 0700 96MB
D3 1600 100MB
End 101MB

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