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RE: UNIT completely stuck

 
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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/26/2013 9:21:31 PM   
wodin


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I usually give orders on the slowest speed setting..the only time I pause is when I get air support to choose my victim. That should help for now.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/26/2013 10:19:34 PM   
Arjuna


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Re the ammo resupply feedback. I have just gone through the battle of the roadblocks scenario and was quite pleased with the way the forward German and American units were getting resupplied. One thing I did notice though, and this may be causing some confusion, is that the Unit Info Box when displaying Ammo state will go a very dark shade of gey when any of its primary ammo types runs low. By way of example i hadstg coy with an almost black ammo state because it had run out of HE for its 75mmm guns. However, it continued the assault firing of some of its AP rounds which it had in abundance and its 7.92mm MG rounds. So it pays to check the details by looking at a units E&S tab and see what specific ammo it has left. Now that stg unit requested resupply at 1143, was told it was on its way at 1201 and it arrived 1402. I think that is pretty reasonable.

So I am going to leave this as is for now.

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Post #: 182
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 12:25:55 AM   
Arjuna


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Famous last words! I played on adn then saw an instance of what was reported above where the lead German Tank coy who had been previously resupplied gets resupplied again but this time receives no new ammo. I have stepped throught the code and worked out why. It's because there is a cap on emergency resupplies and once a unit exceeds this cap it cannot receive more of that supply type till the regular resupply event. The emergency cap is designed to prevent a few units draining off all the stocks - especially arty.

Obviously this is a tad severe especially if the unit is in the middle of an assault. So what I have done in such cases is give non-arty units 50% of what they request if they are assaulting or 25% if they are performing some other task. At least that way it will get some. I will keep it the way it is for arty units.

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Post #: 183
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 1:40:48 AM   
Arjuna


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Fixed that it works much better. But I discovered another problem. I'll use an example from the tutorial. C Coy 318 Inf Bn normally has some 9mm SMGs assigned. But it's lost all of them. The function that checks to see if the unit needs resupply uses the unit small arms weapon level to determine whether or not there is still a requirement for the 9mm ammo. Because it still has some other small arms the level is low but deemed to be a requirement. It then says have I got any and it doesn't so it requests resupply. When the resupply arrives it provides ammo to all those current weapons, which does not include the SMGs. And so the cycle repeats.

I will need to write some code that gets all weapons that use a particular ammo type and then dop so on the estab and derive the weapon level based on that rather than the more generic small arms level. That should fix this anomoly.

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Post #: 184
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 2:31:41 AM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Famous last words! I played on adn then saw an instance of what was reported above where the lead German Tank coy who had been previously resupplied gets resupplied again but this time receives no new ammo. I have stepped throught the code and worked out why. It's because there is a cap on emergency resupplies and once a unit exceeds this cap it cannot receive more of that supply type till the regular resupply event. The emergency cap is designed to prevent a few units draining off all the stocks - especially arty.

Obviously this is a tad severe especially if the unit is in the middle of an assault. So what I have done in such cases is give non-arty units 50% of what they request if they are assaulting or 25% if they are performing some other task. At least that way it will get some. I will keep it the way it is for arty units.


Not so sure about that. I noticed this repeatedly before, but didn´t dare to report it yet. Now that you explained it beeing a cap. This cap leaves the few german Arty pieces in Return to Saint Vith (Piper force yet excluded) partly without ammo for half a day, although the Supply base is near, full with stocks and otherwise capable to deliver the badly needed HE ammo. The given "13th (IG) Coy 27 Fusilier Regiment" is just an example. It also counts for the few other Arty units, which are mortars. I constantly noticed that "Resupply arrived" message, although just a handfull "Basics" arrived each time and not a single HE round. Think the rules need slight a bit of refinement, as I also figured that setting "Supply Allocation Priority" to Max for the mentioned units, didn´t apparently had any effects, as well as putting the Arty units and connected Depot close together at good roads, far away from enemy disturbance didn´t help either in that case.

[image]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/692/drainedigu.jpg/][/image]

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Post #: 185
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 2:42:31 AM   
RockinHarry


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That´s the big picture btw. I had 3-4 inf coy engaged over hours, of which 2 were effectively cut off (with 100% supply column losses frequently). So there wasn´t really any need to restrict the badly needed HE ammo deliveries for the few german Arty units.

[image][URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/svbigpicture.jpg/][/URL][/image]

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Post #: 186
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 5:48:03 AM   
Arjuna


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RH,

OK I see your point re arty and the emergency cap. But we have to be extremely careful lest arty take all opf the ammo supplies and leave nothing for everyone else. Remember that ammo is handle by specific rounds at the unit level but as generic quantity at the Base level. I'll ponder this some more. One option is to increase the cap for arty based on the supply priority of the task. I'll have another look.

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Post #: 187
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 6:05:15 AM   
Arjuna


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Just ran through the tutorial recording I was using for testing the resupply. I have fixed the cases of where endless resups were being sent when the unit didn't have any weapons of a particular type. It now seems to work fine with a lot fewer resupply runs and hence less losses from these as well. I'm happy.

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Post #: 188
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 10:08:47 AM   
Alchenar

 

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I'm not sure I like caps on ammo usage (except for arty to get around the whole 'generic supply turning into shells' problem).

To my mind surely that's the point of the Ammo priority settings? Lets have a cap on medium priority, and an even lower one on low priority, but if I send a unit to assault on high ammo priority then the game should interpret that as 'this is the point of maximum effort, give these guys ammo as fast as they can fire it off'.

If I have too many units on high priority then they'll suck up all of the supply and leave none left for anyone else, but I should be allowed to make that mistake (and suffer for it).

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Post #: 189
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 10:23:13 AM   
phoenix

 

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Sounds good to me. It would be nice, certainly, that when you have supply at base and you give front line units priority, they actually get it. My main problem, however (not a glitch) is that I find it very hard to resupply troops in a very close combat situation. If they are fighting very close (and this seems right) supply just doesn't seem to get through, even if the base is only a few hundred metres back (that is, I get messages saying the supply has been a 100% fail). Sounds right. You have to actually pull them out to resupply them (and they prove very difficult to pull out, I've found, in the middle of a fight) - it would be nice if when I actually do break things up like that and manage to get them out so they can get resupply if the mechanics allowed (via the priority buttom) that they did actually then get that resupply, and that that wasn't prevented by the engine then determining that, as I'd pulled them back a bit, they were, in fact, no longer at that priority. If you see what I mean.)

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Post #: 190
RE: Build 4.4.257 Feedback - 2/27/2013 12:08:00 PM   
Bazza042

 

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I rarely post to these forums, as whilst I find them a useful source of information I also find that certain posters
seem to hypothosize quite frequently without really having any more 'inside' information or, indeed, knowledge than anyone else.

However whilst my views on this may well be debatable, I would hope that no-one would disagree with the statement that Dave provides
a degree of support virtually unmatched in the industry. He responds to queries in a timely, good humoured, fashion and whilst he,
rightly, puts his foot down from time to time on the subject of what he is prepared to change, he is always prepared to listen to peoples' views.

This compares extremely well with the number of games, which are 'abandoned' shortly after release or where the 'developer/designer' defends to death
some 'bug' in the program which is then miraculously 'morphed' into a 'feature' - V4V anyone?

So I do get somewhat annoyed when Dave is taken to task, unfairly in my view, for being 'hostile' in the odd response.

We are a demanding bunch but I believe that we are well served by Panther: indeed I guess I must think that as I have puchased all their sims since
Fire-Brigade!

I hope it is uncessary to add that I have no connection, other than as a customer, with either Matrix or Panther Games.

Hands off Dave -

Free the Australian one!

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Post #: 191
RE: Build 4.4.257 Feedback - 2/27/2013 12:28:24 PM   
wodin


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Bazza I apologise and apologised to Dave. However if people didn't broach anything then alot of things wouldn't get fixed or get noticed by Dave. I know one poster who worries about posting anything they've come across, which to me doesn't make sense..as he really knows his stuff and if he doesn't mention the things he see's then they would go unnoticed and everyone loses out.

Yes alot of what people see turns out to be WAD and Dave explains why and then we are all the wiser...however there are also legitimate issues that dave needs to know about. I do sometimes worry that people are scrutinising the game so much that things will be picked up that many wouldn't even notice and just maybe those things could be left otherwise the game will be being patched indefinitely as no game ever is bug free. Saying that I think the game is better off and will be better off in the long run with all this testing and Dave acting on it when needed and sorting it out.

I will say this if RockinHarry or Bletchley Geek or Mr P find something usually it needs looking at at least. Also Bazza remember this is feedback on a beta patch so people will be bringing up things they feel maybe issues.

Edit: One last thing..remember we all post here and are putting forth perceived issues because we all love the game\sim and all of us want it to be the best it can be. I'm sure every single one of us has the greatest respect for Dave and Panther Games and I think we all know this is the best "wargame" out there by a long mile. I mention CO constantly to those asking about a good wargame and I also mention it often on my tactical wargame page.

SO Thanks Dave and Panther..we all love you;)

< Message edited by wodin -- 2/27/2013 12:32:39 PM >


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RE: Build 4.4.257 Feedback - 2/27/2013 12:35:57 PM   
Arjuna


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Re the Arty ammo. I have made some more mods such that arty will at least get some emergency supplies no matter ehat when they request it subject to availability at the base. The supply priority is already factored intot he amount of emergency supplies that can be garnered and this applies to all types of supply ( ammor, basic and fuel ) and regardless of unit type or task. However, to adjust things for arty only I have applied a further mod based on the current desiredAmmo level. This is directly influenced by the supply priority setting. So if the desired level >= 2.0 the emAmmoQty is halved. If the level >= 1.0 it is quartered. If it's >= 0.75 it is divided by 8 and if less than that it gets 10%.

Now don't be dismayed too much by the 50% mod for when the desired level is > 2.0. becasue you have to allow for the fact that this resupply process could be repeated many times during the day.

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Post #: 193
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 12:38:54 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

I'm not sure I like caps on ammo usage (except for arty to get around the whole 'generic supply turning into shells' problem).

To my mind surely that's the point of the Ammo priority settings? Lets have a cap on medium priority, and an even lower one on low priority, but if I send a unit to assault on high ammo priority then the game should interpret that as 'this is the point of maximum effort, give these guys ammo as fast as they can fire it off'.

If I have too many units on high priority then they'll suck up all of the supply and leave none left for anyone else, but I should be allowed to make that mistake (and suffer for it).


Not all that far fetched.

It's basically the supply strategy used by the Allies to support Market-Garden.

The remaining allied forces were stopped to free supplies for Montgomery to burned up in his effort.

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Post #: 194
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 12:53:45 PM   
wodin


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Is there any chance that when a unit becomes slow on a certain type of ammo they automatically lower their ROF (Unless obviously they are in a massive firefight). Or we get a radio message telling us a unit is say at 25% ammo or something so we can go see if we need to turn the ROF down?

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 1:36:45 PM   
phoenix

 

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Sounds good, Dave. Cheers. Seems like it will be a significant build! In fact, it's incredible the speed of 'development' you've managed since patch 4. Fantastic. So many thing working better. For me, tops is the close combat situation - that is SO different now. It really doesn't happen - in my playing so far - that massive forces get held up by tiny units for ages and ages (they can still get held up, but not like before), which makes things a lot better, given the time constraints in most scenarios. I wonder if Conrad or Daz have noticed it any easier in Elsenborn, for example, where - the last time I played - the whole advance was prone to be stalled, I recall, by a tiny unit or group of units dug in at Bucholz Station.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 1:45:10 PM   
wodin


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Yep when this patch goes final it will be a really big one that will impact the game in alot of positive ways more so than most game companies patches that just fix bugs and thats more or less it. The only other developers who go to town on their patches are Graviteam and Battlefront.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 2:34:03 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

RH,

OK I see your point re arty and the emergency cap. But we have to be extremely careful lest arty take all opf the ammo supplies and leave nothing for everyone else. Remember that ammo is handle by specific rounds at the unit level but as generic quantity at the Base level. I'll ponder this some more. One option is to increase the cap for arty based on the supply priority of the task. I'll have another look.


Yep, was just an example, that I had to deal with repeatedly in St vith and also for this particular Arty unit. Tried to figure out, whether handling all the Arty detached and from Div. level, caused the odd resupply behavior, but now you cleared it.

Just when the US armored cluster reached Breitfeld, I had hoped to hold it, at least temporarily, near the bottleneck just south, with 48th Rgt, but that was the time when no Arty ammo resupply started. Well, the outcome can be seen, marked by the grey crosses.

However, I like to mention that the AI now gives way more of a challenge, than with previous builds. The path to St.Vith lay wide open, so the US could even have pushed there easily till end of day 2, but decided to stay at Breitenfeld, probably due to me still holding parts of Lommesweiler and blocking the crossroad triangle just north, for supplying purposes.

My plans for Piper force will be sending a minor relieve detachement to Lommesweiler from the SW, closing the bottleneck south of St Vith with another force and trying a major counterthrust toward Breitfeld from the woods to the NE. We´ll see how that works out...A human US player could possibly easily prevent that.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 3:11:39 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

I'm not sure I like caps on ammo usage (except for arty to get around the whole 'generic supply turning into shells' problem).

To my mind surely that's the point of the Ammo priority settings? Lets have a cap on medium priority, and an even lower one on low priority, but if I send a unit to assault on high ammo priority then the game should interpret that as 'this is the point of maximum effort, give these guys ammo as fast as they can fire it off'.

If I have too many units on high priority then they'll suck up all of the supply and leave none left for anyone else, but I should be allowed to make that mistake (and suffer for it).


That´s what I thought too it works. Maybe there´s restrictions (beside the mentioned one), that the AI is not that well capable to decide for a "main effort", making same settings like a human does, but I can´t make any conclusions.

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RE: Build 4.4.257 Feedback - 2/27/2013 4:56:06 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Re the Arty ammo. I have made some more mods such that arty will at least get some emergency supplies no matter ehat when they request it subject to availability at the base. The supply priority is already factored intot he amount of emergency supplies that can be garnered and this applies to all types of supply ( ammor, basic and fuel ) and regardless of unit type or task. However, to adjust things for arty only I have applied a further mod based on the current desiredAmmo level. This is directly influenced by the supply priority setting. So if the desired level >= 2.0 the emAmmoQty is halved. If the level >= 1.0 it is quartered. If it's >= 0.75 it is divided by 8 and if less than that it gets 10%.

Now don't be dismayed too much by the 50% mod for when the desired level is > 2.0. becasue you have to allow for the fact that this resupply process could be repeated many times during the day.


Thanks, good to know! Looking forward to see that working in next build.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 4:59:15 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Is there any chance that when a unit becomes slow on a certain type of ammo they automatically lower their ROF (Unless obviously they are in a massive firefight). Or we get a radio message telling us a unit is say at 25% ammo or something so we can go see if we need to turn the ROF down?


IIRC from reading the manual, it is already so that ROF goes down automatically, when a certain treshold (50%?) is reached.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 5:13:30 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Is there any chance that when a unit becomes slow on a certain type of ammo they automatically lower their ROF (Unless obviously they are in a massive firefight). Or we get a radio message telling us a unit is say at 25% ammo or something so we can go see if we need to turn the ROF down?


IIRC from reading the manual, it is already so that ROF goes down automatically, when a certain treshold (50%?) is reached.


OK. been that long since I read the manual I forgot.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/27/2013 6:27:09 PM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Just ran through the tutorial recording I was using for testing the resupply. I have fixed the cases of where endless resups were being sent when the unit didn't have any weapons of a particular type. It now seems to work fine with a lot fewer resupply runs and hence less losses from these as well. I'm happy.


That great news. Thanks for all your hard work on this Dave.
It's nice to know that my concern for it was not a waste of your time

It just didn't feel right.
When I first loaded the game up with the new patch, the Allies closed with, then overwhelmed the Flack battery at the factory complex near the bridge as they should have, but then the whole thing started to lose momentum, and I just didn't understand what was wrong as the close combat thing seemed to be working great at the start.

Then my investigations pointed to the ammo situation, and it just felt wrong that they should get out of supply so quick.

Would it be possible in future versions to have more control over the % of supply to arty, and front line forces with a user defined slider or tick box in the depot do you think?

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Post #: 203
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/28/2013 12:14:13 AM   
Joe D.


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Just played thru the Battered Bastards and Road Block battles and noticed that on larger scenarios my machine seems to strain even though I have a Pentium dual core and 2 GBs of RAM -- apparently there's a lot of processing going on, esp. when many units are present.

On the plus side, the AI opponent seems to be more challenging than ever.

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Post #: 204
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/28/2013 12:52:14 AM   
wodin


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Not sure if the games ues more than one core Joe..also 2 gig of ram if your using Win 7 means nearly all the memory is taken up by Win7..my PC struggled with 2 gig of ram with Win 7..so got 8 gigs quite cheap and it made a world of difference allround and not just games I noticed a big difference. 2gig of ram is really the min you need these days.

Whats the speed of the CPU? As if it is using only one Core then i reckon you need to be hitting 2.5 upto 3 ghz..I have a tri core (well it was a duo core but I opened up another core..tried for four but it didn't work..have it running at 3.4.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/28/2013 1:09:11 AM   
AndrewKurtz

 

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Pentium Dual Core with 2GB RAM isn't much of a machine today. You can pick one up on ebay for $115.


< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 2/28/2013 1:10:42 AM >

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Post #: 206
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/28/2013 4:14:11 AM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Is there any chance that when a unit becomes slow on a certain type of ammo they automatically lower their ROF (Unless obviously they are in a massive firefight). Or we get a radio message telling us a unit is say at 25% ammo or something so we can go see if we need to turn the ROF down?

That is exactly what happens except for the message.

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Post #: 207
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/28/2013 4:20:55 AM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Just played thru the Battered Bastards and Road Block battles and noticed that on larger scenarios my machine seems to strain even though I have a Pentium dual core and 2 GBs of RAM -- apparently there's a lot of processing going on, esp. when many units are present.

On the plus side, the AI opponent seems to be more challenging than ever.

Joe D,

A Pentium dual core with 2Gb RAM is not much these days performance wise but it should be adequate. Also be aware that if you have the autosave option turned on, it does a save every 5 minutes and there will be a slight pause while this occurs.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 208
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/28/2013 4:27:38 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17780
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
ramses,

I've been working through your save all day and to great effect. I was in fact able to track down why the boss waypoints were not removed. This was an oversight in the CalcFormationRoute(). If your boss' route only had the one waypoint then it wasn't clearing your task's existing waypoints. If the boss has two or more waypoints then it would. A trap for the unwary.

I also squashed another bug which was trying to create a new route for route recovering units if they got a reassessTask event. This should not have been happening but when I stepped in anyway I discovered another bug that could result in some errant behaviour. That's squashed as well now.

I have also taken the opportunity over the last few days to expand the number of unit actions and SOPs used in the unit log and reports. So now you should see entries fore recacling route, stalled move and waiting, stalled move and replan and stalled move and bypass.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 209
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/28/2013 4:49:53 AM   
wodin


Posts: 7934
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
Dave excellent work. Sounds like you really had a good fay in the office. I do like the fact we are getting more log messages..the more info we get the more we can understand what is happening out on the battlefield.

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(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 210
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