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RE: UNIT completely stuck

 
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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/24/2013 10:29:10 PM   
Arjuna


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The stalled unit issue is most likely to be a formation lockup. As I said before, send me a save.

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(in reply to navwarcol)
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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/24/2013 10:30:05 PM   
Ramses


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quote:

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

What has worked around it for me, has been stepping in, and grabbing each unit individually (which pulls it away from its current command structure...hence this may be an issue involved) then, I give it a move mission in the direction I was trying to move or attack with the entire formation. I do this to each unit of the formation, usually a battalion. Then they have usually started moving a few minutes later. When they reach their new destination, I reattach them to their previous HQ, and at that point, it seems to work.


That is consistent with what I experienced;give order through hq = stall, give order to unit directly = move.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/24/2013 10:36:39 PM   
Ramses


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

The stalled unit issue is most likely to be a formation lockup. As I said before, send me a save.



Savegame sent.

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Post #: 123
RE: Build 4.4.257 Feedback - 2/24/2013 11:57:01 PM   
pacwar

 

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quote:

I'm OK with increasing the number of fausts, Piats and Bazookas. I agree that historical accounts do indicate that these were carried in larger numbers than officially authorised.


Not sure what the estab provides but I'm looking at the Osprey Order of Ardennes Offensive, I Armee and VII Armee...a caption to one picture notes, "Given Seventh Armee's weakness in armor and anti-tank artillery, it was fortunate that the Volksgrenadiers had a high allocation of Panzerfausts, with 54 in each regiments 14 Kompanie alone, enough to take out an entire American tank battalion..."

< Message edited by pacwar -- 2/25/2013 12:46:54 AM >

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Post #: 124
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 12:21:22 AM   
pacwar

 

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quote:

Having said that, I am also getting a LOT of paused units. What has worked around it for me, has been stepping in, and grabbing each unit individually (which pulls it away from its current command structure...hence this may be an issue involved) then, I give it a move mission in the direction I was trying to move or attack with the entire formation. I do this to each unit of the formation, usually a battalion. Then they have usually started moving a few minutes later. When they reach their new destination, I reattach them to their previous HQ, and at that point, it seems to work.


That's exactly what I have done...I started playing the game with the smaller scenarios and usually micromanaged the battlefield. As I graduated to the larger scenarios I've tried using the company as the minimum command level. Whenever a company command failed to implement an given order I intervened and gave direct orders...this is something I noticed before the current 257 beta...maybe its getting worse with the new beta but when it happened in the past I just chalked it up to the uncertainty of quality of command and friction on the battlefield.

< Message edited by pacwar -- 2/25/2013 12:45:52 AM >

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 1:36:36 AM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramses

I have a stalled unit in the 'Battle for the roadblocks' scenario. Gutmann hq has orders to travel to the Wincrange junction to the southwest in order to set up a defensive screen. It just refuses to go there, even when given move orders instead of defend. If you give direct orders to the subunits, they do what they are told. When you tinker with this hq a bit it usually leads to a ctd. Savegame available if wanted.



I have has a few stalled units like this.

It's actualy the most annoying of an of the problems so far this patch.

Ill try to get Dave a save, but I won't be playing as much for a bit as back to wrok now

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Post #: 126
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 3:18:28 AM   
Arjuna


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pheonix,

Thanks for the sdave you send me re the CTDs. I could not get these to occur no matter how many times i clicked and issued orders. BUT...I did notice that you had a formation lockup there iwth the 82nd Abn Div HQ refusing to move. It's taken me along time but I think I finally nailed it. The problem was with the HQ itself. Its advanceGuard correctly assessed that it should wait at the phase line but its boss the HQ who was the hub of the formation deemed that he was too close and therefore halted. The code that determines if the advance guard should move or not was basing its calc on the next route loc - ie the loc it's in the process of moving to. However, the MustWaitForUnitAhead() was using the hub's current loc not its loc that it is moving to. There was also a rounding effect when indexes along the route were converted to distance. The two things combined meant that sometimes the hub thinks its too close when in fact it is not.

I have revised the code and the 82nd Div HQ is now merrily moving again. So all good here but will need further testing to see if this fixes all occurences.

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Post #: 127
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 4:03:52 AM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramses

I have a stalled unit in the 'Battle for the roadblocks' scenario. Gutmann hq has orders to travel to the Wincrange junction to the southwest in order to set up a defensive screen. It just refuses to go there, even when given move orders instead of defend. If you give direct orders to the subunits, they do what they are told. When you tinker with this hq a bit it usually leads to a ctd. Savegame available if wanted.





Ramses,

I'm stepping through the save you sent me. The problem seems to be with the MainGuard 10 Pion Coy. I suspect that the bossIndexes we have stored for it are incorrect. To work out why I need to step through when its route was originally calced. According to its current unit task that was at D1 14:24, which is before when your save starts. You had sent me your AutoSave #2. Could you please send me an earlier autoSave that starts before D1 14:24. Thanks.

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Post #: 128
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 4:42:33 AM   
Arjuna


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Ramses,

Don't worry. It had nothing to do with the bossIndexes. Rather it's because the Gutman HQ is a senior HQ and is within 1,000m of nearby enemy ( 1,000 plus unit radius of enemy and friendly ). This code was added a long time ago to prevent senior HQs and bases from charging off into the enemy. What I realise is that we need a message to popup to the user to tell him and also to include it in the unit log. That way you will know to bypass.

Even better would be to automatically invoke a bypass if the Bypass option was set to true. This still may not overcome the problem if the terrain is contrained and/or there are too many enemy.

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Post #: 129
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 7:09:24 AM   
Arjuna


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OK it's 1800 hrs here and it's been a long day. I have added code that responds to stalled Moves (only occurs for senior HQs and Bases). Basically if the force has subordinates attacking then it just waits. If it can assess to bypass then it will do so - except if the time since its last bypadd assessment was only a short while ago, in which case it will wait. If it does bypass it will select a new route with an increased caution factor and send orders. If it not allowed to bypass then it will wait for a period in the hope that its subordinates clear the way. The amount of time it will wait will vary according to a random die roll. Basically if random is less than 3.33% it will abandon.

The trouble is when it abandons it replans and ends up with the same route. So I need to add a cautionFactor to ScenTask and set this to something greater than the default 1.0. I'll get onto that tomorrow. I also then need to ensure that the human player gets a report and unit log is updated.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 7:48:16 AM   
wodin


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Dave I wonder if you need to base the HQ and not getting to close and charging the enemy by how powerful the HQ is. I notice the HQ Tank units and mech Inf units have a 5 and 4 rating so I imagine they are more than capable of taking on the enemy and I expect the leader of said unit would also know and not be to concerned about attacking..however the Inf HQ's are very weak and vulnerable so I think they are the ones we don't wnat going to close or charging headfirst into the enemy..just a thought.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 8:10:00 AM   
Ramses


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Rather it's because the Gutman HQ is a senior HQ and is within 1,000m of nearby enemy ( 1,000 plus unit radius of enemy and friendly ). This code was added a long time ago to prevent senior HQs and bases from charging off into the enemy.


Thanks Arjuna,

Is this the reason for the slippages in the scenario as well? I encounter loads of them. Apppears to happen a lot more often with the new beta.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 9:43:36 AM   
wodin


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Ramses the slippage message I believe happens more since Dave introduced the end time as an approx end rather than the end of the scenario (I think anyway). If thats the case and the slippage causes actual problems with reassessments maybe it might be best to revert back to the end time being the end of the scenario? The start and end times are something I never actually use only to increase arty bombardment times..it was a new feature for BFTB, one that I never really got around to using as I found the slippage and crib message coming up often and it all got abit confusing..now because I think the end time not being he end of the scenario the slippage messages happen anyway.

< Message edited by wodin -- 2/25/2013 9:46:56 AM >


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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 11:49:22 AM   
Arjuna


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The slippage is the way it is. It works. I'm not changing it now.

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Post #: 134
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 11:51:54 AM   
Arjuna


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Re senior HQs. To my knowledge no denior HQ would willingly put itself in harms way, regardless of whether it had tanks or not. sometimes they do end up in harms way and those tanks at the HQ can come in real handy.

I think the approach I am taking - ie invoking a bypass assessment - is the right way to go.

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Post #: 135
RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 1:23:13 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Ramses the slippage message I believe happens more since Dave introduced the end time as an approx end rather than the end of the scenario (I think anyway). If thats the case and the slippage causes actual problems with reassessments maybe it might be best to revert back to the end time being the end of the scenario? The start and end times are something I never actually use only to increase arty bombardment times..it was a new feature for BFTB, one that I never really got around to using as I found the slippage and crib message coming up often and it all got abit confusing..now because I think the end time not being he end of the scenario the slippage messages happen anyway.



If I watch the game feedback correctly (and accurately recall what Dave said about implementing the time constraints for movement), the times that are truncated from "end game" are moves as constrained by an assigned pace (normal / fastest) and preferred routing type (avoidance, covered, quickest, etc.).

The various forms of direct defend, probe and attack orders default to the end of the game.

I incur slippages when setting an end time for the task and not fully taking into account distances, or unit quality / training / health status for their potential effect on response time (e.g. they stop at night to take their normal rest because I forgot to specify they could take minimal or no rest at all).

In all, the slippages are understandable within the bounds of what a commander would face on a battlefield encumbered with Fog of War, troops being ordered to do more than should be expected, and distances that need to be traversed to reach the point where the order is implemented.

Hope this helps.


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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 1:46:14 PM   
phoenix

 

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Yes. But Wodin and the others who have mentioned this are correct in that there are a lot more of them since we started on patch 4. It's reasonable to suppose that the new time estimate for Move tasks is connected, I think. As ever, what we are querying is whether some feature (in this case a markedly increased incidence of slippage) is a deliberate feature or an accidental glitch. Wodin wasn't asking Dave to get rid of slippage, I think, but was querying whether something had changed and whether returning the default end time for tasks to the end of scenario would change things to a position everyone was previously ok with. Fair question, I think. I myself always pay attention to end times, start times, rest allowances, and I too see lots more slippage now. Hard not to think it's to do with the default end time change. I note that adding a few hours to the new Move default end time estimation doesn't seem to do much to prevent the slippages.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 2:09:32 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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Should have also noted that if I try to pack too many troops onto too small a communications conduit, I get slippages as the friction among units causes some to be delayed (like ordering a majority of units on the battle map between Graves and Nijmegen to take up positions across the Muese after Hell's Highway is secured to Nijmegen).

Based on the logistics of trying to squeeze too much materiel through too small a hole, this type of slippage is also understandable.

Hope this helps.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 3:54:16 PM   
navwarcol

 

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In the real world, "slips" occur with more than half of orders.. if that is any indication.. I do not think it is a problem, it is extremely realistic.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 4:04:56 PM   
wodin


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Dave I never asked you to change it... Sometimes Dave you come across hostile when people are just trying to work things out sorry it had to be said.

Thanks for the back up Mr P.

I not actually sure slippage actually means anything really except the game telling you the time for the assault has slipped which isn't a massive issue..I just ignore it. I'm actually not one who is having a problem with this as I'm not playing the game and I also feel or believe it has no impact on the game anyway so isn't an issue as such so why would I ask for something to be removed? All I'm trying to do is help work things out for those who are.

If you want Dave I will contribute no more to the forum as I get the distinct impression you have an issue over something and I'm certainly not going to stay where I'm not welcome nor try and help a developer who actually has a low opinion of me.



< Message edited by wodin -- 2/25/2013 4:11:26 PM >


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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 4:11:22 PM   
phoenix

 

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Well, my pleasure to back you up, Wodin, but......Dave didn't sound hostile to me, to be honest. Just sounded like an instance of him deciding to not to something about something raised, as, indeed, you said he might, not so many days ago, in response to people saying that we shouldn't raise things at all! :)

Personally - and no offence meant to people who have any kind of spectrum disorder - I think most people's communication skills on line (my own included, no doubt) fall very far short of those which would be necessary face to face. (Where many of the things said would result in a thump...) I sometimes wonder whether just being on line too much gives everyone some form of spectrum disorder..... ;)

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 4:25:42 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

In the real world, "slips" occur with more than half of orders.. if that is any indication.. I do not think it is a problem, it is extremely realistic.


wholly aggree with that, if it´s a game feature and not an indication for something not going right in the code. But as Dave said it works as intended, the better.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 4:31:12 PM   
wodin


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My Ex Wife has Aspergers Syndrome and my daughter is border line..I'm sure I have traits aswell though my tumour gives me mood swings and I suppose different personalities even due to serious hormone issues.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 4:34:55 PM   
RockinHarry


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Just had a start with test playing St Vith, german side (!). Nice to see casualties mounting, if enemies come into grip with each other. Also noticed that routing becomes a more rare occurance, but OTOH, units appear to do more retreating generally as substitute. Could be it´s the generally untenable initial situation for germans south of Steinebrück, but at least I now see the US AI is now able to push back that bridghead in a matter of hours, while formerly I could hold the US near Steinebrück for a full day. Yet too early to give useful feedback on more, so I´ll take some more time for at least 2-3 replays.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 4:36:49 PM   
wodin


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Harry they are retreating where before they would have routed..so your not getting more of anything but just less severe outcomes.

Then again reading what you've said maybe Dave has changed the level at which they retreat which I didn't think he had done.

< Message edited by wodin -- 2/25/2013 4:39:21 PM >


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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 4:41:06 PM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Dave I never asked you to change it... Sometimes Dave you come across hostile when people are just trying to work things out sorry it had to be said.

Thanks for the back up Mr P.

I not actually sure slippage actually means anything really except the game telling you the time for the assault has slipped which isn't a massive issue..I just ignore it. I'm actually not one who is having a problem with this as I'm not playing the game and I also feel or believe it has no impact on the game anyway so isn't an issue as such so why would I ask for something to be removed? All I'm trying to do is help work things out for those who are.

If you want Dave I will contribute no more to the forum as I get the distinct impression you have an issue over something and I'm certainly not going to stay where I'm not welcome nor try and help a developer who actually has a low opinion of me.




I think your being a bit over sensitive there wodin.
Dave never came across as hostile to me at all in his statement.
He was just saying that he is happy with how it work, and won't be doing anything about it is all.

Like phoenix said it's hard to express emotion when on a forum like this. No body language, or tone of voice to help and sometimes when people are in a hurry they abbreviate a full explanation, by being blunt and to the point.

I wouldn't take it to heart mate, I'm sure Dave appreciates your input, but he is the Captain of this ship so he gets to make the calls.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 4:44:44 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Harry they are retreating where before they would have routed..so your not getting more of anything but just less severe outcomes.

Then again reading what you've said maybe Dave has changed the level at which they retreat which I didn't think he had done.


Can´t tell yet. As said, it´s more of a first impression, than sort of conclusion. More on that, in a couple of days, when I got a clearer overall picture of how the new build plays.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 5:05:12 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix
It's not the first time I've noticed stuck units ...


When I get a major update, I play each scenario in turn from either side, but I didn't have to go far after this last patch to notice my own stuck units as well as other issues.

In Advance to the Sure, the 317th Regt HQ units simply wouldn't move north to Bourscheid even after I gave it several orders to do so over three days of gameplay; the units had no fatigue, yet I kept getting those pesky "slipping" messages ...


Well, I replayed the scenario and the "stuck" behavior didn't repeat, although some units seemed to forget move orders over time and had to be "reminded".

So far I've only played only two scenarios from the Allied side and still have the rest to go for both sides ...

One last thought: are "slipping" messages so urgent that I can't filter them out?


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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 5:43:37 PM   
phoenix

 

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You might need to give the slipping unit the order again, Joe. I think I've seen them end up without orders at all if you just forget about them.

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RE: UNIT completely stuck - 2/25/2013 5:44:42 PM   
phoenix

 

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Sorry to hear you have a tumour, Wodin. Hope it's not serious, if that doesn't sound too mad....

I haven't, by the way, had the impression that Dave has a specially low opinion of you. I think he hates everyone, actually......:) (Just a little joke, Dave....)

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/25/2013 5:46:00 PM >

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