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My kingdom for a decent fighter

 
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My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/18/2013 9:20:04 PM   
Numdydar

 

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It is 8/44 and as Japan, I do not seem to have any fighter that is half way good enough to do anything to the Allies. I have the first version of Franks a version, 5c Zeros, and Tojo IIcs. Plus Jack v5 and some Georges J version. I have tried stacking my CAP plus anything else I could think of and I still get beatened down .

Is it just the number of planes the Allies have (plus quality) and I just have to accept the carnage or (hopefully) I am doing something wrong that the kind people here will explain using small words so that I can correct the errors of my ways.

Of course if my mix of fighters that I have produced is way off, then that will need to be fixed in a different game as it is too late to fix my production now
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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/18/2013 9:33:27 PM   
Lokasenna


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It seems that you have the "right planes" (or at least what everybody says to produce). Is it your pilot quality?

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/18/2013 9:41:36 PM   
Chickenboy


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What about numbers, Numydar? The Frank (b > r/a) is a good aircraft, but if you're outnumbered 3:1 it won't make any difference. If you're not producing hundreds of these aircraft / month, you're probably underproducing.

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/18/2013 10:47:09 PM   
obvert


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In 2/44 myself, and I have what you have, basically. N1K1 and 2, J2M2 and 3, Frank Ia, Tojo IIc and Tony Id. I do use Oscars and Zeros in CAP but don't really expect they'll do much.

Corsairs, P-47s and Spit VIII eat everything alive. I almost hope to get a P-38 sweep these days!

I had thought it was partly to do with our HR of 2nd best maneuver band, so they always sweep at 35k and mine are limited to 31k. Because of this rule I've tried some unorthodox settings. I put all at 10k, and that got creamed. All low layered, like 14k, 12k, 10k. Also not good. Did traditional layering of 31k, 25k, 20k, 15k, 12k and that didn't work either.

If the Allies can sweep with 4-6 groups of their best, there seems to be nothing that gets better than 1:3 in kills, and that is when he's coming at a big base with 200-300 on CAP. Pilot quality seems almost irrelevant, except the exp 70-80 guys seem to get WIA more often than KIA.



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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/18/2013 11:01:40 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Now you know how the AFBs feel with biplanes versus Zeroes.

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/18/2013 11:17:45 PM   
wdolson

 

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Welcome to the dilemma faced by real Japan: unable to keep up in quality or quantity. Some Japanese late war aircraft were pretty competitive when in experienced hands, but there were very few of those available by 1944. Even if Japan had been able to field more well trained pilots, the Americans would have beaten them with numbers.

Slogan for the AFB: It gets better

Slogan for the JFB: Enjoy the fun while it lasts, it's all downhill from here

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 12:05:11 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Welcome to the dilemma faced by real Japan: unable to keep up in quality or quantity. Some Japanese late war aircraft were pretty competitive when in experienced hands, but there were very few of those available by 1944. Even if Japan had been able to field more well trained pilots, the Americans would have beaten them with numbers.

Slogan for the AFB: It gets better

Slogan for the JFB: Enjoy the fun while it lasts, it's all downhill from here

Bill


The only answer is: don't let them get too close. You cannot defend any air space in range of the late war allied fighters. But if they have to fly always with drop tanks they will eventually start to suffer losses. And 1-3 isn't a bad ratio imho for Japan. You can outproduce them. Do it.

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 12:19:55 AM   
Miller


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Speed kills. The only Jap fighters that can exceed 400mph do not come into play until late 45. The P47/51/Spitfire are all in the game long before this. The only viable tactic is to try and get a huge CAP in place to overpower smaller sweeps.

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 12:42:56 AM   
Captain Cruft


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Avoid Sweeps. If this means your airfields/ports get bombed then so be it. Flak and Eng can help there a bit, especially with the Beta changes. Mostly you will need to rely on having more bases than he can suppress simultaneously.

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 3:45:22 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Well at least it is not just me lol.

Some numbers on production
Frank - 200/month
George -148/mont
Jack - 160/month
Zero 5c - 200/month
Tojo IIc - 240/month (Since these seem to die like flies, I use them to take damage instead of the other types So I produce more)

The two areas I have where I can hold my own was Guam and Saipan and the Bangkok area. Of course the issue with Guam/Siapan is they can be bypassed pretty easily plus the AFs are limited in size. Which of course the Allies are bypassing. It also looks like they are bypassing Burma entirely too and going into the northern part of the DEI. Which when you think about it makes a lot of sense militarily. Since marching down Sumtra is a lot easier than trying to slog through Burma. In hindsight I should have built up my forces there better but concentrated in Burma instead. Here is a case of the Allies not having to worry about all those pesky political issues the real war had to deal with. Like spilling British blood for Dutch territory

The only major AFs I have aound Sumtra is Georgetown and Singapore So I guess I need to start transfering planes there too

I have about 400 fighters at Bangkok so can do pretty good there. Not sure if i can get another 400 to Georgetown/Singapore but will try.

I am just about at the point to give up contesting the skies and, if I caanot concentrate huge nuber of fighters somewhere, just fly everyone back to Japan and have everyone train for Kamis . At least it would cut down on the VP they are getting lol. Any one tried just running away and saving up for the end?

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 4:00:44 AM   
Chickenboy


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Numbers seem good. You should have been training up IJAAF pilots on LowNav (kamikaze attack) for some time now. How do your pools look? This is in addition to fighter training.

Keep fighting the good fight!

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 4:02:47 AM   
Warrant officer 0/0

 

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quote:

Zero 5c - 200/month


Personally, i would have stuck with the 5a or 5b,:the 5c
does have armor, but it is the slowest of the 3.
How do the Jacks work for you? I am only building 36 a month.



WO 0/0

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 5:40:22 AM   
crsutton


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Well, pilot quality is an issue for you JFBs. Allies get good replacements and get a constant flow of trained "named" pilots-some of which come in with expert skills. Eventually better fighters means pilot quality starts to grow. Most of my Allied fighter units are loaded with very good pilots as I turned into 1945. I think back to the skill levels of the pilots I was forced to use in 1942. The game works well in this respect-even though the Japanese player can still produce decent pilots up til the end. When 1/45 comes all Navy "replacement" pilots come with an average skills across the board of 50. About a 15 point jump from 1944. Marine and army come in at 45. You can fill a unit with replacements, train it up for a months and you are ready to roll..

The only shortage I have is army bomber pilots as the massive expansion of army medium and heavy bomber units in 2/45 ate up my reserves. All of a sudden you need about 600 extra bomber pilots....

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 12:47:48 PM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Here is a case of the Allies not having to worry about all those pesky political issues the real war had to deal with. Like spilling British blood for Dutch territory



Oddly enough, Churchill and the British military chiefs wanted to skip Burma ("like swallowing a porcupine one quill at a time", WC said) and move amphibiously against the Andamans and Sumatra. The Americans wanted a campaign in Burma, to support the Chinese.

The deciding factor was that higher-priority amphibious operations sucked up all the available landing craft, so the British were left with an overland campaign into Burma, to avoid doing nothing at all.

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 2:30:26 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Here is a case of the Allies not having to worry about all those pesky political issues the real war had to deal with. Like spilling British blood for Dutch territory



Oddly enough, Churchill and the British military chiefs wanted to skip Burma ("like swallowing a porcupine one quill at a time", WC said) and move amphibiously against the Andamans and Sumatra. The Americans wanted a campaign in Burma, to support the Chinese.

The deciding factor was that higher-priority amphibious operations sucked up all the available landing craft, so the British were left with an overland campaign into Burma, to avoid doing nothing at all.


Yes, but politically Churchill had every intention of regaining Burma as a colony. Something the Burmese, Americans and Chinese did not think too highly of. I am just about done with the excellent volume 3 of "The Last Lion." I highly recommend it.

I think the old bulldog was right. I took Sabang in late 43 and it turned out to be decisive in my long running game. Once Sabang is held, the Indian Ocean is pretty much closed to Japanese ships, and Burma soon starved of supply. Winston's ideas were not always half cocked...


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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 5:33:55 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Plus Sabang can base B29s and other long range 4E bombers. So basicly closes off most of the DEI except Boreno. Eastern Java has already been cutoff from Eastern Timor being captured and built up.

This will avoid the PHI from being assulted. McAuther cannot be pleased

As far a pilot quality goes, I am saving most of my high end pilots for kamis (sorry guys. We love you anyway ). As it just feels they can die now or later . Does it really matter at this point which way thy die lol?

Jacks are not as bad as Tojos . I actually think in some ways it is one of the better planes for Japan. Which is why I am making so many lol. Good Altutide, decent guns, etc. Plus it seems to at least survive at a higher rate too. Of course that could just be my imagination too

If I was going to rank planes at this point, I would go in this order, George, Jack, Frank, Zero, Tojo. Of course the issue is that the only Army planes are the Frank and Tojo which limits the number of Georges and Jacks squadrons that can be around.

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 5:51:31 PM   
Lokasenna


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Just uninformed speculation on my part, but I'd think that the British would've liked to have added Sumatra (and so forth) to their imperial holdings, if they could manage it. They were already going to try to reclaim Burma when the war was over, whether they fought for it or not. Why not use the liberation of other places as attempted justification to add them to the realm? *shrug*

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 10:50:57 PM   
Numdydar

 

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The Dutch would not have gone along with that since their people died protecting the area in 1941. I'm sure if this plan would have occured in RL, the Durch would have gotten promises from the UK to allow them to reclaim the area. If the UK would not agree, they would have raised such a stink that it would have caused the whole thing to be abandomed.

Plus if the UK did that to the Dutch, all the other minor Allies (including France) would have been so alarmed at such behavior that they may have been willing to pull out of the war. If you are not going to get your territioty you had before the war, why continue fighting? If that happened, I can see Japan offering the Dutch (and others) to reclaim their territories for prefered trade agreements, protectorates, etc. and make these areas immune to Allied attacks. Plus netural flagged ships could possibly even carry resources to Japan. Forcing the UK and US to attack them too if they wanted the blockade of Japan to succeed.

Needless to say a real 'what if' scenerio

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/19/2013 11:44:38 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well at least it is not just me lol.

Some numbers on production
Frank - 200/month
George -148/mont
Jack - 160/month
Zero 5c - 200/month
Tojo IIc - 240/month (Since these seem to die like flies, I use them to take damage instead of the other types So I produce more)

I am just about at the point to give up contesting the skies and, if I caanot concentrate huge nuber of fighters somewhere, just fly everyone back to Japan and have everyone train for Kamis . At least it would cut down on the VP they are getting lol. Any one tried just running away and saving up for the end?


If this is what everything you're producing, based on historical numbers you could be making a few more. I just found this breakdown of Japanese production. In 44 there was a big spike in production, when the Japanese actually made 28,180 aircraft! Of those 13,811 were fighters. (13,811 / 12 = 1150.92 planes per month)






Attachment (1)

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/20/2013 3:09:02 AM   
Numdydar

 

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I'm pretty close to the '44 numbers. About 200 short. I do have some factories turned off so as to save HI on some fighter planes. So if I turned those on it would be almost an exact match. From what I have read Aug '44 was the peak of Japan's plane production.

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/20/2013 3:25:58 AM   
PaxMondo


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Your build balance between IJA and IJN doesn't seem right.  You're building 450 IJA and 500 IJN fighters/month.  I would expect you to be building more IJA fighters ... and I would be shifting the IJA fighters slowly to the Frank.  For IJN, I would be building minimal Zero's.  They should only be used on CV's, all LB IJN fighter groups should be using either George or Jack.

As other note, until you get your 3rd generation fighters, the allies have the upper hand in a big way.  I would choose your places to defend carefully, and when you do you need at least 2:1 numeric advantage.  Even with your 3rd Gen fighters, the P51H is really tough to deal with.  Miller said it: speed kills. 

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/20/2013 4:40:19 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Thanks Pax. Good advice. I will definately start retooling my builds

I already found out that I need to chose my battles as everywhere I do not have a pretty big advantage, I lose

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/20/2013 4:47:30 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Your build balance between IJA and IJN doesn't seem right.  You're building 450 IJA and 500 IJN fighters/month.  I would expect you to be building more IJA fighters ... and I would be shifting the IJA fighters slowly to the Frank.  For IJN, I would be building minimal Zero's.  They should only be used on CV's, all LB IJN fighter groups should be using either George or Jack.

As other note, until you get your 3rd generation fighters, the allies have the upper hand in a big way.  I would choose your places to defend carefully, and when you do you need at least 2:1 numeric advantage.  Even with your 3rd Gen fighters, the P51H is really tough to deal with.  Miller said it: speed kills. 


Yeah, I am about to get the P47N. What a monster!


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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/20/2013 10:55:15 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
I already found out that I need to chose my battles as everywhere I do not have a pretty big advantage, I lose

Yes you do. I like 3:1 myself ... but very hard to attain.

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/20/2013 10:58:50 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yeah, I am about to get the P47N. What a monster!


It is ... when you face them, they're just about as bad as the P51. Little less manouver, little less speed, 25% more hitting power. Still, for the IJ, you gotta have at least 2:1 with a 3rd gen fighter to be able to win. With Tojo ... I don't know ... a lot more for sure. Even then, the P47/P51 will be withdrawing when they are out of ammo faster than you can get a hit on them.

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/21/2013 2:06:02 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
I already found out that I need to chose my battles as everywhere I do not have a pretty big advantage, I lose

Yes you do. I like 3:1 myself ... but very hard to attain.


I had that for awhile at Bangkok and was doing ok, but then he realized what was happening and stopped. Damn human intellinence Where is the AI when you need one lol?

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/21/2013 2:46:50 AM   
DivePac88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Corsairs, P-47s and Spit VIII eat everything alive. I almost hope to get a P-38 sweep these days!



What about Hellcats... obvert mate you forgot about Hellcats!


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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/21/2013 6:35:41 AM   
koniu

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Corsairs, P-47s and Spit VIII eat everything alive. I almost hope to get a P-38 sweep these days!



What about Hellcats... obvert mate you forgot about Hellcats!


I always look at Hellcats like decent plane but far behind P-47, F4U, Spit VIII or even P-38. They are much better from A6M, on the same level(little better) with Tojo and George and little behind Frank i think. But what can i know? In my game i am still days before they will show up.


< Message edited by koniu -- 2/21/2013 7:35:32 AM >


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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/21/2013 1:53:04 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Corsairs, P-47s and Spit VIII eat everything alive. I almost hope to get a P-38 sweep these days!



What about Hellcats... obvert mate you forgot about Hellcats!



Getting isolated Hellcat sweeps are the goal these days!

If I'm seeing 5-6 groups of T-Bolts whizzing past, getting a group of Hellcats at what, 50-60mph slower means we can usually get around 1:1 with a good mix of Georges/Franks/Jacks on CAP. That is a big win these days for the Japanese!

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RE: My kingdom for a decent fighter - 2/22/2013 11:30:49 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Corsairs, P-47s and Spit VIII eat everything alive. I almost hope to get a P-38 sweep these days!



What about Hellcats... obvert mate you forgot about Hellcats!




Hellcats? They are pretty much comparable with Tojos. I am not a big fan of Hellcats, they are great on the defense (my P-40K are great on the def too) but on the offense, they are just a tad too slow with around 370mph.

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