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RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?!

 
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RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/2/2013 10:06:00 AM   
Limulus


Posts: 16
Joined: 2/23/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly
I am a newbie. I am also a fighter freak from following Star Wars and the Homeworld games. So I put Fighter Bays on everything possible save for Troop Transports(Which are semi-sacrificial; as long as they get the troops down, I don't care if they die afterwards). Other weapons too, of course, but mostly Fighters. I am not entirely sure how many is 'enough' when it comes to a base. Are the AI amounts(Usually 2-4 based on base size) sufficient? I can't tell. I won't start designing ships/bases till I have Fighters.

The more the better. The biggest cap I recently figured out with fighters is, that if you only have a single source of producing them you will loose if your opponent has a strong fighter defense. So it's more important to have more "producing facilities" (means: more ships / bases producing fighters when they were shot down) instead of one single source with a hell of fighters. I just learned this lesson while experimenting with fighters and had a fight against the legendary pirates. They attacked one of my small space ports and the fighters onboard were kind of useless.
My shield recharge rate wasn't, though The shields were strong enough the enemy wasn't able to penetrate them and I was able to send reinforcement over the whole map (size 10x10).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly
I follow the trend of 'one ship for most jobs'. The 'Escort' isn't. It does most things since it's usually at the size limit or close to. As sizes improve, more STUFF(Weapons, Bays, Armour, etc) gets added to the base design. Simple, but it works....kinda. The AI loves making and building it's own, poorer designs though. This is especially galling when it comes to mining bases-the privates keep making the less-defended designs when there's a perfectly good design I've made that won't fold to a gentle breath.

Did you ensure to mark the old base design as "obsolete"? If there is only one type - your type - of base design, than they are only able to build this.


[EDIT]
Regarding fighters on freighters: I personally don't like this approach as the ships need to wait until the fighters returned before they can jump. I tested this to have superior range and let the freighters stand off while fleeing, but it didn't worked out - due to the returning handycap.
[/EDIT]

< Message edited by Limulus -- 3/2/2013 10:09:08 AM >

(in reply to Bloodly)
Post #: 61
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/2/2013 11:29:00 AM   
Bloodly

 

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The AI designs set a level of power. This is not the maximum level of power (you can manage to put more shields and weapons on stuff), and some players love to mini-max and complain that the AI designs suck.

But if the AI designs for things like mining bases are being killed due to lack of power(Meaning it's having to spend more in time and resources just replacing them) then one can say there's a problem. And certainly we've seen that AI designs fold to Pirate raids regularly.

But at the same time, you want to be able to have an impact. Being able to design ships that hurt and roundly outclass the AI given equal tech levels(Not impossible depending on what you set tech to-I've been playing it on maximum tech cost recently. It's odd) is something that keeps your interest and keeps from being completely 'watch it play'. Not that 'watch it play' is a bad outcome, given the level of automation IS a selling point.

That's something to think about adding, maybe-have a setting in Automation that says 'how much of the size limit do you want to use for X design' or 'for designs in general'.

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 62
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/2/2013 11:57:29 AM   
Bingeling

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly

The AI designs set a level of power. This is not the maximum level of power (you can manage to put more shields and weapons on stuff), and some players love to mini-max and complain that the AI designs suck.

But if the AI designs for things like mining bases are being killed due to lack of power(Meaning it's having to spend more in time and resources just replacing them) then one can say there's a problem. And certainly we've seen that AI designs fold to Pirate raids regularly.

Whether to have mining bases that work as fortresses, is a choice. I usually run AI designs, and pirates are usually just a problem in early days of little resources and low tech. They can be really big problem, though.

If one wants to get through the "early pirate pains", bribes is an option. As is improving mine defenses, as well as thinking twice about where to place them. The AI can love to build a mine "in the middle of nowhere", and it can be a good idea to check if that mine is really needed, or if there is a usable source that is easier to defend.

(in reply to Bloodly)
Post #: 63
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/3/2013 2:30:28 AM   
Bloodly

 

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It's odd comparing the mining base designs to something like the Resort base designs-those things are decked out like fortresses when they're often untouched in war thanks to being off the main routes and things.

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 64
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/4/2013 3:15:17 PM   
pumkinfacer22

 

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Just read through the 3 pages of this mess and wanted to clear up the construction myth with Test results:

Sorry to rekindle this fire.. and i say "mess" because i was hoping after reading 3 pages of "best designs" i found a bunch of arguing and 1 or 2 tips on designs..

anyway to the test


4 space ports -

SpacePort A. : 1 yard, 1 plant each.

SpacePort B. : 1 yard, many plants each

SpacePort C. : 30 yards, 1 plant each

SpacePort D. : 30 yards, many plants each.


Result : better to have 30 yards and 1 plant of each. because i started production on all ports at the same time.. built 30 ships.. and they all came out the same.. so its better to be able to build 30 ships (30 yards) and 1 plant each as more plants dont work faster.. per my results


Thats all.

thanks.




< Message edited by pumkinfacer22 -- 3/4/2013 3:16:16 PM >

(in reply to Bloodly)
Post #: 65
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/6/2013 2:37:01 AM   
Elrohir525


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Early in this thread, jpwrunyan suggested designing state mining ships (e.g., a frigate with mining components) for more direct control of resource supply. I thought this sounded like an excellent idea and tried it out, and it worked beautifully as far as collecting the supplies goes, but then returning them to my planets for use in the economy seems more difficult. Does anyone know of a way to unload these ships' collected resources? I know you can order the ship to decommission at a base, and the resources will be deposited there once the process is complete, but I'd much prefer re-usable ships!

Also, Tanaka stated that 3 1/3 extractors provide the maximum possible rate of resource collection. Does this apply to resupply ships too? If yes, I've been wasting space on excess extractors...

Thanks for your help!


< Message edited by Elrohir525 -- 3/6/2013 2:39:53 AM >

(in reply to Darkspire)
Post #: 66
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/6/2013 4:01:54 AM   
Bloodly

 

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Ships by default operate at half strength for mining. Yes, even resupply.

Ships tasked to mining will(Seemingly) auto-return to a shipyard/colony once full. ONCE FULL is important, since it can take a long time to fill up.

(in reply to Elrohir525)
Post #: 67
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/8/2013 9:14:23 PM   
Limulus


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I just had a nice fight with some legendary pirates which nicely shows why I prefer close combat tactic settings for my ships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WK5AqUjMyk&feature=youtu.be

My monitoring station was placed floating somewhere in the middle of nowhere and hence was energy-less. So the pirates were just dealing with the armor which was continuously repaired by repair bots. I was watching the fight since a minute or two when I finally recorded this video. The damage dealed by the pirates is like a piece of cake.
Bringing this back to military ships one can also imagine why I tend to put in some armor component's combined with repair bots. It enables them to survive much better in critical situations.

(in reply to Bloodly)
Post #: 68
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/19/2013 3:52:17 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 2603
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Limulus

I just had a nice fight with some legendary pirates which nicely shows why I prefer close combat tactic settings for my ships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WK5AqUjMyk&feature=youtu.be

My monitoring station was placed floating somewhere in the middle of nowhere and hence was energy-less. So the pirates were just dealing with the armor which was continuously repaired by repair bots. I was watching the fight since a minute or two when I finally recorded this video. The damage dealed by the pirates is like a piece of cake.
Bringing this back to military ships one can also imagine why I tend to put in some armor component's combined with repair bots. It enables them to survive much better in critical situations.


Very interesting! The Pirates weapons were completely useless!

_____________________________


(in reply to Limulus)
Post #: 69
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/19/2013 3:55:42 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 2603
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pumkinfacer22

Just read through the 3 pages of this mess and wanted to clear up the construction myth with Test results:

Sorry to rekindle this fire.. and i say "mess" because i was hoping after reading 3 pages of "best designs" i found a bunch of arguing and 1 or 2 tips on designs..

anyway to the test


4 space ports -

SpacePort A. : 1 yard, 1 plant each.

SpacePort B. : 1 yard, many plants each

SpacePort C. : 30 yards, 1 plant each

SpacePort D. : 30 yards, many plants each.


Result : better to have 30 yards and 1 plant of each. because i started production on all ports at the same time.. built 30 ships.. and they all came out the same.. so its better to be able to build 30 ships (30 yards) and 1 plant each as more plants dont work faster.. per my results


Thats all.

thanks.





Thanks for testing! So is this a bug that more than one plant is useless?

_____________________________


(in reply to pumkinfacer22)
Post #: 70
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/20/2013 9:53:53 PM   
Keshne

 

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Joined: 3/20/2013
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Hey there, new guy around here, though in no way a newbie to the game. I've been playing it since the ROTS expansion came out.

English is not my primary language, so please bear with me.

For me it all goes down to three elements in order of importance:

1) Weapons Range
2) Defences
3) Firepower

To achieve that goal I usualy crash Construction tech, since my ship sizes get pretty high (Escorts at 250 Size). I also place very high emphasis on missile and point defence weapons. Shielding and Armor are next up on the list.

Designs:

Escorts: Mini-carriers, 3 shields, 5 armor, 4 missile launchers, 2 blasters, 1 fighter bay, 4 point defence guns if possible.

Frigates: Main combatant, 5 shields, 10 armor, 7 missile launchers, 3 blasters, 1 point defence gun

Destroyers: Heavy combatant, 7 shields, 15 armor, 11 missile launchers, 4 blasters, 2 point defence guns

Cruisers:Missile Barrage ships, 10 shields, 20 armor, 15-16 missile launchers, 5 blasters, 3 point defence guns

Capitals: Haven't used them yet, nor designed any using this strategy.

Fleet Management:

1 Defence Fleet of 6 ships per system (1 Escort, 3 Frigates, 2 Destroyers)
Variable number of Auxiliary Fleets (2 Escorts, 4 Frigates, 3 Destroyers, 1 Cruiser)
Variable number of Assault Fleets (4 Escorts, 4-6 Frigates, 4-6 Destroyers, 1-3 Cruisers, 1 Carrier if available)
Variable number of Invasion Fleets (3-5 Troop Transports, 2-3 Escorts)

Tactics:

Stronger: Standoff
Weaker: Standoff
Flee at: 20% Shields

I usually add engines and thrusters and reactors until speed and maneuvering reach 4 and 15 respectively, and any extras are kept. Hyperspeed is more important than energy efficiency or jump ignition speed. I'm thinking about replacing the Blasters with Railguns, but the range seems way too small.

These ships have been exterminating everyone, expecially with my blitz-like tactics. In my latest game I completely crushed a Sluken empire of similar strength with this design philosophy.

I initially did not want to design my ships, I got frustrated with the upgrading criteria used by the game; replacing my good weapons or engines or whatever, with components of lower quality. I want to upgrade not replace (Though that would be an interesting option).

(in reply to Limulus)
Post #: 71
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/21/2013 5:18:06 AM   
Xmudder

 

Posts: 113
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I've been playing the game for a while, just got into ship design.

Is a fighter bay better or worse than weapons on a mining base, SSP, or other static emplacement?

If 3 mining extractors are best, why does the auto design add 2 mining and 1 luxury?

Is a SSP the best design to put around all planets? it will not let me design one without manufacturing plants.

Is it a good idea to mix and match shields? (2 of each vs 6 of 1)

What does support size 85 mean for hab modules and life support?

Why do Space Ports have cargo if they are unnecessary around planets?

(in reply to Keshne)
Post #: 72
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/21/2013 6:59:58 AM   
feelotraveller


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1)  I find fighters the best weapon for bases.  Their big advantage is that the upgrade to fighters happens automatically.  Their extreme range doesn't hurt either.

2)  First up it is not always 3 that attains the maximum extraction rate.  There is a cap of 10 for mines and 40 for gas mines.  The number for each extractor varies at tech levels as seen in the research screen.  For example after two new mining techs 2 mining engines extract at maximum (10); a third engine is useless. 

Luxury extraction is counted separately from gas or mines; it has its own cap (of 10), so at the start of the game you need a base with 4 mining engines and 4 luxury extractors to get the maximum rate for both luxuries and normal resources (or 3 gas extractors and 4 luxury extractors).

Finally it is usually not necessary to be extracting at maximum rate.  These days I rarely use more than 2 extractors of a given type, and sometime only 1, and after a short build up phase I will usually have lots of that resource.  (The exceptions are carbon fibre and occasionally steel in the very early game.)  So it really depends what is meant by 'best'.   But the auto-designs are generally far from the most effective...

3)  Yes, usually it is good to build small spaceports at most planets and only a couple of medium/large ones for shipbuilding and trade centres.  I make the small spaceport smaller (yep you need one of each manufacturing plant) and use that.

4)  I don't see any downside to it.  But usually I just go with my best shields for the job.  Although sometimes it can be worth mix and matching fast recharge shields with strong shields.

5)  It means that for each hab + life support you can add up to another 85 size in components.  So a size 88 ship is the biggest you can have with one of each (they do not count themselves).  If you want to add one more size you need an extra hab + life support and have a size 92 ship!

6)  Um, er, because... 

Hope this helps.

(in reply to Xmudder)
Post #: 73
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/21/2013 7:01:04 PM   
Xmudder

 

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I have a SSP 1 and a SSP 1 Mk 2 that I designed. How do I get my SSP 1s upgraded to the other design? I even changed the "build at new colony" and I get the old (pre fighter) design.

(in reply to feelotraveller)
Post #: 74
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/21/2013 8:13:31 PM   
Bingeling

 

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You need to obsolete the old design. This should happen automatically if you "upgrade manually". There is a symbol in the design list that signals obsoletion (I think red, on the right). Show all designs, sort by subtype, and make sure only one is non-obsolete.

Unless you want multiple SSP designs of course, if you do, the defaults will be the newest one.

(in reply to Xmudder)
Post #: 75
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/21/2013 8:13:44 PM   
KAHUNA

 

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when you redesign a new template you HAVE to obsolete the old ones or the AI will always make the cheapest one available thinking it saves you money [in my experiences with the game so far] Same thing when buying bases from another empire..always check to make sure their designs are obsoleted immediately after you purchase them or later on in the game you find out your constructors were making the bought alien designs instead of the ones you wanted them to make in the first place.

Bingeling!You beat me by less than 15 seconds on your reply! Good Call

< Message edited by KAHUNA -- 3/21/2013 8:29:10 PM >

(in reply to Xmudder)
Post #: 76
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/22/2013 12:10:10 AM   
Xmudder

 

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They are obsoleted, according to the design menu. Not only can I not upgrade SSP 1 to the Mk 2/3/4, I can't build MSP either, and the AI keeps asking to build defensive bases instead. They are set to auto upgrade but not auto retrofit in the window.
Should I go with Monitor Stations? I have the tech.
the game does not allow an option to auto add fighters to small space ports :(

(in reply to KAHUNA)
Post #: 77
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/22/2013 2:59:47 AM   
KAHUNA

 

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do not obsolete them before you make the new template.What is the setting for viewing the designs?Make sure you select the See All Non Obsolete designs so that way you know what's in there because there's also a setting that allows you to see the latest non obsolete designs and maybe that's what is throwing you off?Just guessing here..
Obsolete designs will show up as light grey/white names and the buildable designs will be orange..maybe that will be helpful..

< Message edited by KAHUNA -- 3/22/2013 3:03:40 AM >

(in reply to Xmudder)
Post #: 78
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/22/2013 5:10:37 AM   
Xmudder

 

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Yeah, the ones I design are orange, it may have to to with every time I click on "manual upgrade" the original design is obsoleted, even if I cancel from the build screen.
Is there any way to turn off the building of monitor bases? I'd rather have them at all my planets and use refitted exploration ships for removing FoW.
What do proximity sensors do?

(in reply to KAHUNA)
Post #: 79
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/22/2013 9:29:12 AM   
Bingeling

 

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If the AI is confused about retrofits, you should always be able to choose what to retrofit to in the ship list (with the base selected). If you got multiple SSP designs, for instance, that is a spot where you can select which one to retrofit to.

I would think that retrofitting should be straight forward as long as the only non-obsolete SSP design is the new (upgraded) one, though.

The AI designer may not want fighters on a small spaceport, you can decide otherwise.

If you obsolete a design by accident (manual upgrade - cancel), you can always relocated it by choices on the design filtering (all designs), and un-obsolete it.

Monitoring stations don't appear out of nowhere. They are built by construction ship. If you want the AI to run them and it builds monitoring stations that you don't want, you can maybe achieve something by manual design (no AI) on monitoring stations, and making them all obsolete. That way there won't be a design for the AI to build.

(in reply to Xmudder)
Post #: 80
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/22/2013 4:33:42 PM   
KAHUNA

 

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If I want to add something to existing bases I'l click the design as new button,make what changes I desire,then I'l obsolete the old design.I only have one design for each unit[except for cruisers] With my cruisers I added a pure Missile/ Torp design that utilises ALL the different kinds of missiles and torps.Why use old tech some may ask?Because of the differnt ranges and load/fire times I can usually totally destroy anything I point them at in a very short order.I have to be careful tho when building my cruisers to make sure I control which are being built because the AI will usually choose my least expensive cruiser designs over my Heavy Missile designs.

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 81
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/22/2013 7:08:52 PM   
Xmudder

 

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I think I know what happened... I upgraded to SSP Mk 4 design and then tried to upgrade that, cancelled, but it was still marked as obsolete... so I couldn't retrofit to it.
I think a monitor station at all new colonies would work better, with rec and med facilities, once I have the tech. That way the AI can still suggest SSPs and I don't have random ships queued up to be built there.

(in reply to KAHUNA)
Post #: 82
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 3/22/2013 7:16:14 PM   
Bingeling

 

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Long range scanner on spaceports is nice, but if the area is dense with colonies, you won't need that on everyone.

If optimizing a scan and no-scan version of SSP makes sense.

(in reply to Xmudder)
Post #: 83
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 5/25/2013 4:35:55 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 2603
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From: USA
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Thought it would be helpful to bump this for new players. Great stuff here! Join in the discussion!

_____________________________


(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 84
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 8/7/2013 4:34:28 PM   
Icemania


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Worth another bump. Some useful material, some entertainment and hopefully prompts more discussion for Shadows.

From recent threads I would add:

Ports and Bases at Colonies
Bases provide defence and some colony development support, minimising resource shortages elsewhere and inefficient use of freighters, which spaceports can cause. As the colony development support is small (particularly if you don't mind Assimilating) it also appears quite valid to defend colonies with ships only. Personally though I would use a mix of Bases and Ships. Bases will still help on newly conquered planets to prevent revolts.

Later on, there is value in having either a Base or Port at all well developed reasonable quality colonies that are being taxed, since the happiness benefits allow tax rates to be increased, which can be quite lucrative.

Use Large Spaceports at a handful of your most strategically important worlds tasked with fleet building, typically homeworlds ... which I normally design to be much larger than the default e.g. double the yards and docking bays at least. Otherwise use Small or Medium Spaceports to ensure you have a Spaceport every 3-4 colonies ensuring travel times for internal empire freight stays small.

Freighter Cargo Bays
It would appear there is a case for giving a Small Freighter as many cargo bays as a Medium Freighter as a minimum. There might be a case to simply make all Freighter designs essentially a Large Freighter with cargo capacity. If you can afford it of course. However, adding cargo bays to a Large Freighter seems to have little value.

Pre-Warp Research Centres
Prewarp build a very large Energy Research Centre immediately with enough labs to utilise the majority of Total Empire Research Potential. Getting Warp Drive and Construction Technology as early as possible provides a huge strategic advantage.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/8/2013 2:35:02 AM >

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 85
RE: Post your optimal base/ship design tips and why!?! - 8/9/2013 6:54:27 AM   
Icemania


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Prewarp, you can build a Speed 52 Explorer by including 16 Ion Thrusters and stripping down other components that aren't mandatory. I use them to very quickly explore my home system and get the Warp Field ruins ASAP.



< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/9/2013 7:57:59 AM >

(in reply to Icemania)
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