Matrix Games Forums

War in the West gets its first update!Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm version 2.08 is now available!Command gets huge update!Order of Battle: Pacific Featured on Weekly Streaming SessionA new fight for Battle Academy!Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager is out for Mac!The definitive wargame of the Western Front is out now! War in the West gets teaser trailer and Twitch Stream!New Preview AAR for War in the West!War in the West Manual preview
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/9/2013 9:58:52 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1579
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
And nobody did radio communication between artillery and troops better than the US Army. NOBODY.

You've really shown your ignorance here, "Inquistor".

Hi T, you are right on the money, here. Wargamers don’t really understand how things were done irl. That’s why they say some of the silly things they do.

1970-1971 I was with the 319th AFAR. As Blackhorse, or any other infantryman can tell you, we could pop onto a hilltop, deploy a battery, contact the FO, calibrate and FoE within 45 minutes. There’s a reason we have red t-shirts that say “Ten Mile Sniper”. (Talking to Blackhorse, my unit has actually shot behind his, at least once).

Ran a gun section for a month, but quickly got sent to Battery D. That was my job. I know whereof I speak.

A modern airborne arty battery is expected to drop, setup, calibrate and FoE within 20 minutes. Best that’s ever been done is 24 minutes, but .. and that’s not even knowing what frikkin country they are dropping into.

Oh, yeah, arty don’t need no steenkin maps, we do’n need no steenkin badges. Just need a couple math nerds that know trig and the log tables, and we’re good to kill no matter where you are.

JWE

< Message edited by Symon -- 3/9/2013 10:17:42 PM >


_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 31
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/9/2013 10:04:01 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41361
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
And just to reemphasize, the capability was there during WWII.

The US Army invented "The Serenade", which today is called "Time on Target", coordinating the fire of several batteries to land on the same target at the same time, giving no time to take cover. You think you can do that without radio or ability to work with forward observers?

No.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 32
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/10/2013 8:30:48 PM   
dwg

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
A landing involves months of planning


Sometimes more. I'm not quite sure offhand when the first Beach Recce for Overlord was (though IIRC collection of European beach data from available UK sources doesn't much postdate Dunkirk), but No 7 COPP recce'd the Akyab beaches in October 1943, whereas the Akyab landings didn't happen until January 1945.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 33
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/10/2013 9:07:28 PM   
dwg

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
And nobody did radio communication between artillery and troops better than the US Army. NOBODY.


I'll willingly yield you the comms, UK radios have had a distressing tendency to suck, but the UK system's ability to potentially call down every gun in an entire corps on a single target has a certain je ne sais quoi ;)

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 34
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/11/2013 1:23:37 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1775
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And just to reemphasize, the capability was there during WWII.

The US Army invented "The Serenade", which today is called "Time on Target", coordinating the fire of several batteries to land on the same target at the same time, giving no time to take cover. You think you can do that without radio or ability to work with forward observers?

No.


The precision of US artillery fire was even acknowledged (and feared) by the Wehrmacht.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 35
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 4:47:17 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1927
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

1970-1971 I was with the 319th AFAR. As Blackhorse, or any other infantryman can tell you, we could pop onto a hilltop, deploy a battery, contact the FO, calibrate and FoE within 45 minutes. There’s a reason we have red t-shirts that say “Ten Mile Sniper”. (Talking to Blackhorse, my unit has actually shot behind his, at least once).
JWE


"Infantryman?" ::gags::
"INFANTRYMAN!?!" ::chokes::
::pulls saber from scabbard, points:: Who you calling, infantry, redleg?

Apart from JWE's inability to tell the dashing cavalry apart from the plodding infantry (to any artilleryman, they're all 'targets') he's right on point.

In my day, we had embedded artillery forward observers assigned to, and billeted with, each cavalry troop, even in peacetime, to ensure better coordination and faster response.


_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 36
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 5:17:12 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5232
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline
All this stuff about how good the American artillery IS, is irrelevant (though correct)

The tripe that was peddled was how in WW2 they needed an inordinant amount of time to prep for a target, I dont know of any Army in WW2 whose artillery wasnt capable and practised at aquiring and switching between targets promptly.
As often as not, any delays were caused by some higher ranking dude sticking his nose in.

What the USA lacked in WW2 was an equivalent to the British AGRA, with its sheer weight and better structure the US Artillery in WW2 could have been truly awesome.

For an excellent site on British and Commonwealth methods have a look at http://nigelef.tripod.com/index.htm

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 37
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 5:29:00 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5232
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline
Slightly shifting the subject, One of the fears of DOWNFALL was the number of casualties the Allies (mostly American) would suffer in invading Japan.

These figures were extrapolated from Iwo Jima and Okinawa campaigns.

Were these the right campaigns to use as a basis for a push across the Kanto plains??

In Burma and on Leyte and Luzon, the Allied mechanized units blitzed the poorly equipped Japanese forces and once on the move found the IJA slow to react (massive airsupport may have helped).

Would the campiagn on Honshu have degenerated into a slugfest, or would Shermans and Pershings run amok???

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 38
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 9:53:20 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41361
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
I think (from the analyses I've read) that Downfall would have been a very, very hard fight to break through the initial Jap defensive lines followed by US forces achieving operational freedom. The Jap defenses would have been hard, but brittle.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 39
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 12:05:32 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1927
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

Good questions. In fairness to the planners, they were not certain, themselves. They also prepared (lower) casualty extrapolations based on the Normandy invasion, and breakout across France.

If it had come to an invasion, I don't think Olympic would have occurred as planned (land on Kyushu, and capture the southern 1/3rd of the island, starting November 1st). Japanese intelligence had determined that Kyushu would be the target, and the Japanese military had tripled the size of the defensive force over the Summer so that the invading Americans would barely be able to muster a 1:1 once all the committed troops were ashore.

MacArthur, to be sure, dismissed the (accurate) US intelligence estimate of the increasing strength of the Japanese defenses. But Nimitz and the Navy believed that Olympic, as then proposed, was foolhardy, and had already signalled their opposition to General Marshall and the Chiefs of Staff, at which point the mushroom clouds over Hiroshima and Nagasaki made the argument academic.



quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Slightly shifting the subject, One of the fears of DOWNFALL was the number of casualties the Allies (mostly American) would suffer in invading Japan.

These figures were extrapolated from Iwo Jima and Okinawa campaigns.

Were these the right campaigns to use as a basis for a push across the Kanto plains??

In Burma and on Leyte and Luzon, the Allied mechanized units blitzed the poorly equipped Japanese forces and once on the move found the IJA slow to react (massive airsupport may have helped).

Would the campiagn on Honshu have degenerated into a slugfest, or would Shermans and Pershings run amok???



_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 40
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 1:26:27 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41361
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
Also, the weather would have been a factor. At times, the Okinawa campaign was basically drowning in mud and Kyushu in winter would have been just as bad, if not worse.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 41
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 8:35:15 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1579
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
"Infantryman?" ::gags::
"INFANTRYMAN!?!" ::chokes::
::pulls saber from scabbard, points:: Who you calling, infantry, redleg?

Apart from JWE's inability to tell the dashing cavalry apart from the plodding infantry (to any artilleryman, they're all 'targets') he's right on point.

In my day, we had embedded artillery forward observers assigned to, and billeted with, each cavalry troop, even in peacetime, to ensure better coordination and faster response.

Somehow, I knew you would dial in with your horsey stuff. Okey doke, I'll match your sabre with my 105, but seriously, you know what I'm saying. We work together. You have yellow stripes, I have red ones, but we both have that US on the collar. As you know, we shot behind you guys. For me, personally, you guys were my faves. You knew what, where, and when you wanted stuff and were oh, so incredibly righteous about calling it in. I really loved working with you guys. You were almost as good as Airborne (not really, but I had to say it).

John

_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 42
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 8:53:10 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 15187
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online


The rest of us are interpreting this as:

Artilleryman visiting cavalry: "Wow, you guys sure do move fast! Glad we're on the same side."

Cavalryman visiting artillery battery: "Wow, that sure is a big gun! Glad we're on the same side."



_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/site/staffmonkeys/

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 43
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 9:26:40 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8155
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
"Infantryman?" ::gags::
"INFANTRYMAN!?!" ::chokes::
::pulls saber from scabbard, points:: Who you calling, infantry, redleg?

Apart from JWE's inability to tell the dashing cavalry apart from the plodding infantry (to any artilleryman, they're all 'targets') he's right on point.

In my day, we had embedded artillery forward observers assigned to, and billeted with, each cavalry troop, even in peacetime, to ensure better coordination and faster response.

Somehow, I knew you would dial in with your horsey stuff. Okey doke, I'll match your sabre with my 105, but seriously, you know what I'm saying. We work together. You have yellow stripes, I have red ones, but we both have that US on the collar. As you know, we shot behind you guys. For me, personally, you guys were my faves. You knew what, where, and when you wanted stuff and were oh, so incredibly righteous about calling it in. I really loved working with you guys. You were almost as good as Airborne (not really, but I had to say it).

John


Yeah, I guess those 105s and Mech Cav are OK if you don't have any naval gunfire support and Marines...

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 44
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 10:28:52 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2275
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline
You know Don, the 105 makes a pretty big hole in the ground, then again you could park a battery of 105 in the hole that a 16" shell leaves in the ground.

_____________________________


(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 45
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/12/2013 10:58:22 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8155
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

You know Don, the 105 makes a pretty big hole in the ground, then again you could park a battery of 105 in the hole that a 16" shell leaves in the ground.


Actually I'm kinda blowing it out my stern tubes here. I never saw any naval gunfire support. All I did was try and knock down airplanes.

Kinda fun to tweat old John, though...

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 3/12/2013 11:40:18 PM >

(in reply to oldman45)
Post #: 46
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/14/2013 5:29:48 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1579
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Kinda fun to tweat old John, though...



Shucks Don, you Navy pukes got steak and eggs and ice cream. All we want is an upgrade from basic cable.

JWE

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Symon -- 3/14/2013 5:39:40 PM >


_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 47
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/14/2013 9:47:05 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8155
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon



Shucks Don, you Navy pukes got steak and eggs and ice cream. All we want is an upgrade from basic cable.

JWE


You get cable? Don't get that on ship - the cable ain't long enough. We do get 50% female crews though...

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 48
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/15/2013 3:13:41 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1579
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
Biggest Luxury in the Field
Infantry: engineers blowing trenches for them
Cavalry: grunts digging trenches for them
Artillery: premium channels on the cable

Biggest Gripes in the Field
Infantry: the weather
Cavalry: coffee maker in the tank not working
Artillery: only having basic cable



< Message edited by Symon -- 3/15/2013 3:22:16 PM >


_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 49
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/15/2013 8:50:32 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 6080
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Israel
Status: online




_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 50
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/17/2013 8:35:43 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1579
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
Hakkaa päälle, Saudakar

JWE

_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 51
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/23/2013 7:28:37 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1579
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
You get cable? Don't get that on ship - the cable ain't long enough. We do get 50% female crews though...

Just saw a post on the model ship building site where someone saw this on facebook and wondered if it was legit.

U.S.S.Constitution sailed from Boston with a full complement of 475 officers and men, 48,600 gallons of fresh water, 7,400 cannon shot, 11,600 pounds of black powder and 79,400 gallons of rum". Her mission: "To destroy and harass English shipping."

Making St Eustatious on 6 October, she took on 826 pounds of flour and 68,300 gallons of rum.

Arriving Azores on 12 November. She provisioned with 550 pounds of beef and 64,300 gallons of Portuguese wine.

Cruising until 21 January, she took 12 English merchant ships, salvaging only the rum aboard each.

On 26 January, her powder and shot exhausted. She made a night raid up the Firth of Clyde in Scotland. Her landing party captured a whiskey distillery and transferred 40,000 gallons of single malt Scotch aboard by dawn. Then she headed home.

She arrived in Boston on 20 February, with no cannon shot, no food, no powder, no rum, no wine, no whiskey, but with 38,600 gallons of water.

GO NAVY !!!


_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 52
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/23/2013 7:41:24 PM   
bigred


Posts: 2908
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon



Shucks Don, you Navy pukes got steak and eggs and ice cream. All we want is an upgrade from basic cable.

JWE


You get cable? Don't get that on ship - the cable ain't long enough. We do get 50% female crews though...


What happened the the phrase "a woman in every port" ?

_____________________________

---bigred---

IJ Production mistakes--
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2597400

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 53
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/23/2013 8:08:53 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2275
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon



Shucks Don, you Navy pukes got steak and eggs and ice cream. All we want is an upgrade from basic cable.

JWE


You get cable? Don't get that on ship - the cable ain't long enough. We do get 50% female crews though...


What happened the the phrase "a woman in every port" ?


We bring them with us now

_____________________________


(in reply to bigred)
Post #: 54
RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions - 3/23/2013 9:46:04 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8155
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon



Shucks Don, you Navy pukes got steak and eggs and ice cream. All we want is an upgrade from basic cable.

JWE


You get cable? Don't get that on ship - the cable ain't long enough. We do get 50% female crews though...


What happened the the phrase "a woman in every port" ?


Is that it? I thought it was a port in every woman...

(in reply to bigred)
Post #: 55
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.129