question pretty please

[Footslogger]

After Germany's surrender, how did the Russians treat the 'civillians'? Was there a mass exodus to the West before Stalin tightened his grip?

[turtlefang]

You really have to talk about three periods.

1945-46 Even through Germany surrendered, the Russian really didn't have an effective local government system. It was brutal. Recent information indicates the local military basically did whatever it wanted to do and treated the civilians very badly. Widespread looting, rape, murder, confiscation of material but on an unorganized basis, with a lot of occupation troops disobeying orders unless under direct oversight. A lot of the reports from this time that have come to light talk about the Soviet displine in regards to the German people simply "not existing and, short of firing on our own troops, no way to reestablish it."

1946-49 The Soviet Union organized systematic war reparations, demilitarazation, and transfer of selected scientist back to the USSR. In this time period the civilians were still in daily contact with the Soviet occupation troops, displine was good, a large number of people "disappeared", reports of widespread looting and rape continued plus food shortages.

1950 on Soviet occupation troops were confined to thier barracks. The GDR was established and rearmed. Local rule was the USSR direction become the norm.


The Russians in Germany: A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949
Norman M. Naimark is a good source as he is using source documents from the communist party during this time that have been recently uncovered.
He's caused a lot of issues to be relooked at with the information.

[Tone]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

After Germany's surrender, how did the Russians treat the 'civillians'? Was there a mass exodus to the West before Stalin tightened his grip?

I think that the exodus was other way around, from west to Soviet east. Because most German civilians wanted to be part of the great Soviet proletarian, and live happily ever after. [:D]

[Peltonx]

I had a family member that worked for the West helping poeple get from the east to west from 45-52. Many of the poeple that disappearred in the east, reappearred in the west.

Borders were wide open from 45 to 47 if you had some cancer sticks, chocolate or a gift for someones girl.

48-51 the bribes got bigger

Many poeple crossed on Irans northern border until the nut jobs took power in 79.

He had many a tale to tell shortly before his death.

[Footslogger]

I found this 'gem' of a battle series made in Russia only two years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny_-e7cG6DY

After watching this epsiode, I can see that the Germans could of won the war if they captureed the caucasus. 70% supply of the oil used by the Russians.

[Scook_99]

2 parts though:

1) USA would have increased dramatically oil shipments to the USSR
2) USSR would destroy the facilities before giving them up to the Germans. The ability for Germany to take advantage of that oil hinges upon, a) repairing and building new facilities, and b) rolling stock of rail. a) would be problematical as the materiel to build such facilities were scarce in Europe, and rolling stock was rather busy already.

I doubt Germany would 'win' WWII even with capture of the Caucasus, but movement would probably grind down to resemble something like WWI. USA shipments would never be enough, and would forestall an invasion in France. Suing for peace may be more likely, if and only if the Nazi regime was removed from power. This would be a hugely entertaining scenario however, if you can get over the even more massive casualties this would cause.

The only way this works well is if Rommel can take Egypt and link up through Turkey with the Caucasus forces, and The Mediterranean becomes an Axis lake. Oh, the grandiose dreams! And yes, sometimes this is what I attempt playing a strategic game as Axis.

[Maximeba]

I found this 'gem' of a battle series made in Russia only two years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny_-e7cG6DY

After watching this epsiode, I can see that the Germans could of won the war if they captureed the caucasus. 70% supply of the oil used by the Russians.

I'm not a historian, but the only way that Germany would have won the war would be to beat the US to the bomb. Which in itself is an interesting question. Would they have dropped the bomb in Europe?

[Bronze]

Yes they'd have dropped the bomb in europe.

[sillyflower]

On top of where I live probably

[Footslogger]

When did the tide turn against the Germans?

[Michael T]

When did the tide turn against the Germans?

When they elected Hitler.

[Footslogger]

Because of Hitler, the Germans never had a chance in winning WW2?

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Maximeba
I'm not a historian, but the only way that Germany would have won the war would be to beat the US to the bomb. Which in itself is an interesting question. Would they have dropped the bomb in Europe?

Your statement isn't 100% clear.

If you mean "Would the US have dropped the Bomb in Europe?"

Hell, yes.

The Manhattan Engineering District was signed into law on December 6 1941, the day before Pearl Harbour, and as a result of lobbying by scientists such as Einstein to develop an Atomic Weapon before the Germans did.

The B-29 was a FY40 project to allow a 2 ton bombload to be delivered to Europe from bases in the Continental US (which wouldn't have been enough for an A-Bomb).

The B-36 was a FY41 project to allow a 20 ton bombload to be delivered to Europe from bases in the Continental US ... which *would* have been enough (Yes, I know, the B-36 didn't enter service until after the war, but that was because the program was put on hold because of the surrender of Germany and the fact that the B-29 could be based close enough to Japan to do the dirty, noy because it *couldn't* have been ready earlier).

(NB: I have no idea, and online and printed sources are no help, either, whether either project could have actually met those design requests when they became operational, but those were the design parameters!)

The original plan for the deployment of the A-Bomb was to use it against European - German - targets and, years ago, I read somewhere that there was a list actually in existence ... one of the North German ports (Bremen/Bremerhaven? Hamburg?) and one or more of the Ruhr cities were specifically listed.

The unexpectedly early collapse of the Germans, or the unexpectedly longer development time of the Bomb (or, more likely, a combination of both) meant the Allies had the weapons on hand and the only enemy left was Japan ...

If you mean would the *Nazis* have dropped it on Europe ... no doubt at all, and without the least compunction.

However, *how* they would have delivered it is ... problematic.

The V-2 didn't have the payload (2 tons, IIRC, the first A Bombs were around 20 tons). None of the actual operational German Bomber or other aircraft had the payload over any realistic range.

They could have used it as an emplaced mine.

Or delivered it by Submarine. But the Happy Time for U-Boats was long past. The Allies were reading the German Naval codes (Enigma/Ultra) and the chances of the Bomb being successfully delivered anywhere across the Atlantic are ... small to nil ... they *might* havve got it close to one of the British ports (not London ... there's no way a U-Boat could have gotten up the Thames estuary close enough).

Ground emplaced mine is the most likely.

Phil