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What's happening? - 2/16/2013 5:51:15 PM   
warspite1


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This forum seems to be dying at the moment...

Is anyone testing the new patch? Is there any feedback on the changes?

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RE: What's happening? - 2/16/2013 10:07:42 PM   
jack54


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Only had a chance to start one game as Entente against CP AI ... major naval battle happened within first month or so with GB destroying most of the German navy... while my Russian BB was shocked to find a german convoy escorted buy cruisers. This looks promising.

Ottomans attacked agressively towards Suez...cutting off British Inf unit (my fault they caught me sleeping in that area).
CP is kind of quite in Serbia after initial attack.

I had a couple of screen lockups. both times after moving a naval unit; this may just be a coincidence but I am saving more often.

sorry I haven't gotten far enough to give an accurate assessment of the bombing/airwar changes.

Edit: British airpower starts weak ... no bombers.

< Message edited by jack54 -- 2/16/2013 10:42:14 PM >


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RE: What's happening? - 2/16/2013 10:09:54 PM   
warspite1


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Thank-you for that I'm slowly getting through my o/s games - but the rate of play is not exactly fast so will be sometime before I get my hands on the beta...

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RE: What's happening? - 2/16/2013 10:45:24 PM   
jack54


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I edited my post to mention British Airpower is very weak without starting Bomber option... not sure why is this historical?

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RE: What's happening? - 2/17/2013 2:01:23 AM   
jcrohio

 

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Just finished second game using 1.2

First game was CP vs normal AI - Like the fleet size increase - one question for the developers for this is that I felt like there was less production for the armies - not basing this on any facts but just a feeling - wonder if the maintenance cost for the new navies was not tweaked thus making it harder to produce armies - liked the fact that cities come back faster for production - nations really surrender fast - this one was over by turn 50 - Britian surrendered before I ever got even close to invading, France surrendered with the entire south still in their control, and Russia surrendered and only lost Warsaw

Second game played the Entente versus priveledged AI - really enjoyed the game - very very aggresive AI - thought I was going to lose Russia - first time with priveledged so not sure if the was because of the patch or the priveledged AI - commenting from above - really felt like I was struggling to produce units especially with Britian and Russia - game lasted until tuen 90 but could have been over about ten turns earlier - one major complaint I have seen is the enemy AI (no matter the sided played) throwing their fleets away - needs to be addressed - also Germany never controls the Baltic - their Swedish convoys can be destroyed ever time they sail

Enjoying this game a lot
Jack

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RE: What's happening? - 2/17/2013 11:09:51 AM   
kirk23


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quote:

one major complaint I have seen is the enemy AI (no matter the sided played) throwing their fleets away - needs to be addressed - also Germany never controls the Baltic - their Swedish convoys can be destroyed ever time they sail


I find this very annoying part of the game,even with stronger NAVAL UNITS DEFENCE WISE,they still are far to fragile,the escorting of the convoys hopefully will be addressed with the addition of the new Destroyers units,another thing that needs fixing is the free movement within the port green dot areas,other than stealth missions with submarines,enemy surface units should be challenged as soon as they enter the green dot areas.

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RE: What's happening? - 2/17/2013 2:53:28 PM   
Lord Zimoa


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quote:

,enemy surface units should be challenged as soon as they enter the green dot areas.


This has been added to the next patch, we plan to do another short test patch at end of this month with some more tweaks, fixes, French language support, etc... than we release the whole package as an official patch a week later or so.

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RE: What's happening? - 2/17/2013 6:11:23 PM   
kirk23


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Nice to know that the Green dot area movement is being looked at,for me this has been in need of attention since I first played the game,I mean to say its world war 1 and not Napoleonic era with ships of the line in close blockade.With the advent of the Torpedo and mines,they alone made that tactic impossible to implement.Speaking of mines,I have noticed that there is art for these,but that they have not be used by the game,were they abandoned during game development?

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 2/17/2013 6:12:45 PM >


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RE: What's happening? - 2/17/2013 6:27:26 PM   
Myrddraal

 

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Just to clarify - we're looking at increasing combat penalties in these zones, not adding any automatic damage at the moment.

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RE: What's happening? - 2/17/2013 6:47:25 PM   
stockwellpete

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nations really surrender fast - this one was over by turn 50 - Britian surrendered before I ever got even close to invading, France surrendered with the entire south still in their control, and Russia surrendered and only lost Warsaw.


I think this is encouraging news as it will give the game much greater replayability. Sometimes the war could be over in 2 years, on other occasions it might last over 4 years. The one thing about surrender though that still needs to be addressed is the territorial settlement that would occur when a power surrenders. Does it become an occupied power? Does its conqueror install a puppet regime? Does it lose certain territories? Or does it keep all its territory but have to substantially disarm?

Something along these lines would make the game even more interesting. Whether this might be considered in the context of the diplomatic aspects that the developers have made reference to before, I am not sure?

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RE: What's happening? - 2/17/2013 6:52:35 PM   
kirk23


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I'm not talking about automatic damage,something needs to act as a barrier to halt enemy surface units moving freely within the green dot area,the port area's were under constant watch day and night,with Destroyer,Cruiser & Submarine patrols,no enemy surface ships should be able to move as they please unmolested in the green dot area,I mean to say at the moment I can park the entire British surface unit fleets, within 2 hexes of Wilhelmshaven,under no circumstances should this be possible to achieve its nuts!!!!

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 2/17/2013 9:12:10 PM >


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RE: What's happening? - 2/17/2013 7:13:02 PM   
kirk23


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British surfaces units having an away day sight seeing trip,over to Wilhelmshaven, but the German AI does not care one bit that they are there.The British units have been sat here for 3 turns,with no intervention by the Germans How No!!

( STOCK GAME UNMODDED )

Its all right tweaking the Green dot combat effects,but in my eyes the green dot area is broken, this should not be allowed to happen,in the real world WW1 this infringement by all the British units right into the heart of the German navy's main base,would have resulted in mass hysteria and panic by the German people,talk about the Nations morale being dented,the German leaders would have faced the firing squad for allowing this to happen and do nothing about it!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 2/17/2013 7:37:59 PM >


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RE: What's happening? - 2/17/2013 7:49:17 PM   
stockwellpete

 

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I agree with Kirk very much. This is about Wilhelmshaven . . .

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/de-kaiserliche-marine-wilhelmshaven.htm

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RE: What's happening? - 2/17/2013 9:19:02 PM   
kirk23


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

I agree with Kirk very much. This is about Wilhelmshaven . . .

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/de-kaiserliche-marine-wilhelmshaven.htm



Cheers stockwellpete,I'm trying to make this game better for everyone not just me,so if by moaning and complaining gets something done,then I will moan,but if the green dot port area's don't get fixed,I mean by stopping free movement of enemy surface ships,Submarines are different they can move about how they please undetected,because that is what they were built to do,be a hidden unseen threat.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE FIX THE GREEN DOT AREA ENEMY SURFACE SHIPS FREE UNMOLESTED MOVEMENT!

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 2/17/2013 9:37:08 PM >


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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 1:33:12 AM   
xriz

 

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Hey Kirk23,
As an idea that can be easily added to a mod, you could add one or two "static" defenses off the coast. These would be new units you create that are basically non moving battleship units, you place them in the scenario and they don't move, that also means they can't repair unless you set a harbor hex at sea. You give them heavy defense, shock and a decent navel and sub attack, it represents the combined defenses the German Navy employed to cover Wilhelmshave, including but not limited to: Zeppelins, Fast torpedo boats, mines and shore guns.

It would look some thing like this, if you placed 2 of them you'd put them were the BB's in the picture above are with a space between them, that would give good defense with out it being impossible for the British to attack, if they wanted to spend the PP for more BB's. You'd also probably want to do unit and icon graphics, though, for icon graphics you could use armor and just copy it.

{
id = <new #>,
name = "coastaldefenses",
type = "naval",
chassis = "water",
class = "naval",
icon = "armour",
levels =
{
{
hp = 100,
mp = 0,
ap = 1,
LOS = 1,
range = 1,
shock = 2,
attack = 12,
defense = 10,
airattack = 6,
airdefense = 18,
bombard = 4,
assault = 0,
ammunition = 0,
}
},
retreat = 0,
costPP = 100,
costMP = 5,
turns = 20,
upkeepPP = 1,
upkeepMP = 0,
weapon = "heavy",
factions = { 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 10 },
strengthValue = 25,

stats =
{
groundattack = 2,
airattack = 10,
navalattack = 6,
subattack = 4,
stratattack = 0,
basedefense = 25,
highdefense = 20,
bombard = 5,
shock = 5,
},

firstStrike = 1,
},

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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 8:49:06 AM   
kirk23


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xriz

Hey Kirk23,
As an idea that can be easily added to a mod, you could add one or two "static" defenses off the coast. These would be new units you create that are basically non moving battleship units, you place them in the scenario and they don't move, that also means they can't repair unless you set a harbor hex at sea. You give them heavy defense, shock and a decent navel and sub attack, it represents the combined defenses the German Navy employed to cover Wilhelmshave, including but not limited to: Zeppelins, Fast torpedo boats, mines and shore guns.

It would look some thing like this, if you placed 2 of them you'd put them were the BB's in the picture above are with a space between them, that would give good defense with out it being impossible for the British to attack, if they wanted to spend the PP for more BB's. You'd also probably want to do unit and icon graphics, though, for icon graphics you could use armor and just copy it.

{
id = <new #>,
name = "coastaldefenses",
type = "naval",
chassis = "water",
class = "naval",
icon = "armour",
levels =
{
{
hp = 100,
mp = 0,
ap = 1,
LOS = 1,
range = 1,
shock = 2,
attack = 12,
defense = 10,
airattack = 6,
airdefense = 18,
bombard = 4,
assault = 0,
ammunition = 0,
}
},
retreat = 0,
costPP = 100,
costMP = 5,
turns = 20,
upkeepPP = 1,
upkeepMP = 0,
weapon = "heavy",
factions = { 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 10 },
strengthValue = 25,

stats =
{
groundattack = 2,
airattack = 10,
navalattack = 6,
subattack = 4,
stratattack = 0,
basedefense = 25,
highdefense = 20,
bombard = 5,
shock = 5,
},

firstStrike = 1,
},


Hi xriz,yes adding coastal defences units as a mod is something I might do,but I would give them 2 range attack + 2 range sighting,I'm also going to add mine fields so that only 2 channels remain open,and these 2 channels will be defended by Submarine or Cruisers.

I'm hoping it gets something done about the green dot area without having to mod,so that its an official fix.

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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 8:52:31 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

British surfaces units having an away day sight seeing trip,over to Wilhelmshaven, but the German AI does not care one bit that they are there.The British units have been sat here for 3 turns,with no intervention by the Germans How No!!

( STOCK GAME UNMODDED )

Its all right tweaking the Green dot combat effects,but in my eyes the green dot area is broken, this should not be allowed to happen,in the real world WW1 this infringement by all the British units right into the heart of the German navy's main base,would have resulted in mass hysteria and panic by the German people,talk about the Nations morale being dented,the German leaders would have faced the firing squad for allowing this to happen and do nothing about it!



warspite1

This is the reason I suggested that enemy ships operating in certain confined waterways - including key ports - are subject to a "dice-roll" each turn they are there. The purpose of this dice-roll is to decide whether losses to the fleet(s) are incurred from mines, torpedoes etc i.e. things that are too small to game separately, but that had (e.g. Dardenelles) - or could have had (e.g. Wilhemshaven) - a huge effect.

Wilhelmshaven should be one of the most protected places around. Remember it was the development of the torpedo and mines that made a close blockade by the RN impossible - and led them to adopt the distant blockade - something which the Germans didn't have a plan for..

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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 9:09:13 AM   
kirk23


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Yes warspite1,the green dot area needs to stop movement at will off enemy ships,below is a photo showing mine fields with only two open channels that need only a submarine or a Cruiser to block any approaching enemy vessels,IE challenge Friend or Foe.

In and around your own main naval base,the moto should be thou shall not pass!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 2/18/2013 9:13:24 AM >


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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 9:48:39 AM   
Myrddraal

 

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Should it really be impossible to move through the green dots? Does that mean it should never be possible to carry out a naval invasion (even if you've defeated the entire enemy fleet)? It would also prevent any German movement in the channel or near any of the British ports.

EDIT:
I'm not trying to shoot the idea down, I just don't really get it at the moment.

< Message edited by Myrddraal -- 2/18/2013 9:49:59 AM >

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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 10:07:44 AM   
warspite1


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No, it should not be impossible. But the power of the Green dots should not be a one size fits all - so reflecting the fact that some bases were better protected than others.

An amphibious invasion around Wilhemshaven was hardly likely for obvious reasons and any naval activity in that region should be (unless lucky dice are present) costly.

Hence the reason I like the dice-roll I mentioned, because this reflects the uncertainty involved in any military operation. The fact that mines were laid and subs and destroyers were guarding the area does not necessarily mean that they will score hits, but the better protected, the more chance that the enemy will suffer losses.

Naval invasions should be possible, but they cannot be freebies. The channel should not be out of bounds to the Germans, but they should not be allowed to sail up and down at will - same with the Adriatic, same with the Gulf of Finland.



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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 10:15:39 AM   
warspite1


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In addition to the above point, are there any plans to amend supply per some recent posts?

Specifically the fact that if France falls then its game over for the British and Amercians as they have no supply capability (unless they stick to the coast) or almost as bad, half supply if they have a city.

The same problem manifests itself for any amphibious invasions. The defender just has to stop the defender from taking a city and just sit back and destroy with relative ease.

Thanks

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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 10:41:10 AM   
stockwellpete

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Myrddraal

Should it really be impossible to move through the green dots? Does that mean it should never be possible to carry out a naval invasion (even if you've defeated the entire enemy fleet)? It would also prevent any German movement in the channel or near any of the British ports.

EDIT:
I'm not trying to shoot the idea down, I just don't really get it at the moment.


Do you like that minefield idea that kirk has posted? It is the first time that I have seen it but it looks interesing and would be appropriste for the places that warspite has suggested, maybe Scapa Flow too.

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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 12:01:43 PM   
kirk23


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Myrddraal

Should it really be impossible to move through the green dots? Does that mean it should never be possible to carry out a naval invasion (even if you've defeated the entire enemy fleet)? It would also prevent any German movement in the channel or near any of the British ports.

EDIT:
I'm not trying to shoot the idea down, I just don't really get it at the moment.


Its not that it should be impossible to move through the green dots,maybe look at the movement cost, should be more say like mountain terrain but at sea,so each turn the max an enemy ship can move is 1 hex,this would reflect the slow approach necessary as if they were slowly traversing a mine field?Friendly units can move as normal in their own port areas,but its much more difficult to move about if you are an enemy force!

As for invasion,there is nothing to stop forces coming ashore,as in game at the present time anywhere along the coast,just that this way trying to invade via the port hexes is a much more difficult task to accomplish.

SOME MINE INFO WORLD WAR 1


World War I mines were used extensively to defend coasts, coastal shipping, ports and naval bases around the globe. The Germans laid mines in shipping lanes to sink merchant and naval vessels serving Britain. The Allies targeted the German U-boats in the Strait of Dover and the Hebrides. In an attempt to seal up the northern exits of the North Sea, the Allies developed the (North Sea Mine Barrage ). During a period of five months from June almost 70,000 mines were laid spanning the North Sea's northern exits. The total number of mines laid in the North Sea, the British East Coast, Straits of Dover, and Heligoland Bight is estimated at 190,000 and the total number during the whole of WWI was 235,000 sea mines.Clearing the barrage after the war took 82 ships and 5 months, working around the clock.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 2/18/2013 12:20:56 PM >


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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 12:37:24 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

quote:

ORIGINAL: Myrddraal

Should it really be impossible to move through the green dots? Does that mean it should never be possible to carry out a naval invasion (even if you've defeated the entire enemy fleet)? It would also prevent any German movement in the channel or near any of the British ports.

EDIT:
I'm not trying to shoot the idea down, I just don't really get it at the moment.


Its not that it should be impossible to move through the green dots,maybe look at the movement cost, should be more say like mountain terrain but at sea,so each turn the max an enemy ship can move is 1 hex,this would reflect the slow approach necessary as if they were slowly traversing a mine field?Friendly units can move as normal in their own port areas,but its much more difficult to move about if you are an enemy force!

warspite1

But these are one or two week turns. If the British had tried a close blockade of Wilhelmshaven they would not have just been slowed up, they would have suffered heavy loss - and the plan was for the Germans to sail with the fleet as soon as losses had started to equalise the numbers.

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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 12:42:45 PM   
kirk23


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I'm on your side with this,whether that be the dice roll penalties,or what ever I just want to see an end to the free unhindered movement of enemys ships in and around the major naval bases.

If the enemys approach is slowed up,this gives the defending side time to intercept and repel the encroachment,which would be the case in history,you only have to look at the failed Dardenelles campaign,when the allies were stopped by the minefields there.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 2/18/2013 12:50:47 PM >


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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 12:52:32 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

I'm on your side with this,whether that be the dice roll penalties,or what ever I just want to see an end to the free unhindered movement of enemys ships in and around the major naval bases.
warspite1

I know - we, and others are working to the same goal here by throwing out the ideas - an even better WWI game, without moving away from its strategic genre

Being able to rock up and land thousands of troops unmolested in the Heligoland Bight doesn't do much for realism

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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 2:19:09 PM   
kirk23


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All in all its pretty easy to fix this modding wise,I can only hope that the game designers, can input fixes that us naval gamers are highlighting as problem areas within the game as is,with the intention off making a very good game even better!

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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 7:42:51 PM   
jack54


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I really like both ideas, movement penalties in foreign green dot areas and especially random damage.

< Message edited by jack54 -- 2/18/2013 7:43:00 PM >


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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 8:12:39 PM   
kirk23


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Any feedback on these suggestions would be more than welcome from the game designers,us gamers are play testing,and as a group are trying to improve the game.

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RE: What's happening? - 2/18/2013 9:19:33 PM   
Myrddraal

 

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We're reading everything, but we can't necessarily comment straight away without discussing things internally & with Matrix/Slith. But we are reading

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