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Cross river attack - 2/8/2013 2:52:05 PM   
bigred


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Playing beta 1121c should the allies continue the steamroller effect and make a cross river attack next to Pegu?




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RE: Cross river attack - 2/9/2013 1:38:30 AM   
John Lansford

 

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Any troops that enter the hex SE of Pegu from Pegu itself should trigger a shock attack since you're crossing the river, unless the Allies control the hex. If you control the hex, then any Japanese reinforcements from Moulmein will trigger a shock attack. If the first case is what's going on, I would not cross directly into that hex from Pegu. a 5000 AV vs 3000 AV advantage is not enough to dislodge the defenders even with air and naval assistance IMO. Unless you are certain those troops are badly disorganized or out of supply from being thrown out of Pegu, it's not worth it; a bad shock attack result can stall an advance for months.

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RE: Cross river attack - 2/9/2013 1:55:38 AM   
bigred


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Any troops that enter the hex SE of Pegu from Pegu itself should trigger a shock attack since you're crossing the river, unless the Allies control the hex. If you control the hex, then any Japanese reinforcements from Moulmein will trigger a shock attack. If the first case is what's going on, I would not cross directly into that hex from Pegu. a 5000 AV vs 3000 AV advantage is not enough to dislodge the defenders even with air and naval assistance IMO. Unless you are certain those troops are badly disorganized or out of supply from being thrown out of Pegu, it's not worth it; a bad shock attack result can stall an advance for months.

FatR has about 5 divisions at full strengh and 5 divisions totally disorganized at about 20%
combat effective. I reallly want to go after him and keep up the pressure down the road to Bangcock..I could send in one corp w/ 1500AV then cross w/ all other troops 2 days later.

BTW I have one regiment in the hex in question which will get attacked and retreated next turn on day one. Day 2 would be the arrival of my crossing forces..Too bad I cant invade a nonbase hex.

< Message edited by bigred -- 2/9/2013 2:01:38 AM >


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RE: Cross river attack - 2/9/2013 3:36:52 AM   
Itdepends

 

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If you do cross try and time it so that you can set the units already in place to attack (normal level) as the reinforcements arrive- that will reduce the losses of the shock attack on the arriving units.

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RE: Cross river attack - 2/9/2013 3:47:51 AM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

I could send in one corp w/ 1500AV then cross w/ all other troops 2 days later.


Very bad idea. The rule is (IIRC) attacker must have - already in the hex and having crossed via the same hex side - AV equal to at least 1/3 of defender's AV.

So why is that a bad idea? Because that 1,500 AV you send might become 500 AV by getting stomped when it crosses. And then the 500 AV will not make the 1/3 against whatever the defender has left (say the defender's 3,000 got reduced to 2,500 just for the sake of argument). So, your second stack to move in will still shock attack.

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RE: Cross river attack - 2/9/2013 9:06:43 AM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

Too bad I cant invade a nonbase hex.

You can, but it will be always unprepared landing (so around 50% of troops get disabled). Try naval bombardment there.

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RE: Cross river attack - 2/9/2013 8:47:49 PM   
Alfred

 

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Just because there are 10 Japanese divisions across the river is not, per se, a reason to not cross the river yourself. It depends on several factors.

1. Apparenty half the enemy force is in very poor condition. Plus they will not be dug in. That state of affairs won't necessarily show up in AV but will impact adversely in the fire phase.

2. It therefore very much depends on how combat effective is the pursuing Allied force. The immediate concern is how fatigue and disrupted the Allied units are. The medium concern is the apparent lack of supply at both Rangoon and Pegu. If the Allied force is in good condition and a large amount of supply is incoming to Rangoon, the river crossing is a valid option.

3. The Allies must cross the river in a single bound. Sending over a part of the force on day 1 and the rest on subsequent days is not good.

4. It seems to me that the Allied airforce is capable of maintaining the enemy disrupted whereas the enemy is incapable of disrupting the Allies.

5. Taking into account the preceding points, bearing in mind that the shock attack will accentuate the firepower impact (hence the importance of the Allies being in good shape and Japan being in poor shape), there is a chance that a 2:1 result will ensue and the unfortified enemy divisions forced to retreat. However this is where the importance of incoming supply is seen as at the very least the entire Allied army will secure a lodgement and with good supply will recover quicker than the already beat up enemy.

6. If those preconditions don't exist, a pause will be in order as you

(a) get supply in, and
(b) move directly east in order to avoid the river crossing

This would not be a problem provided the airforce can keep the enemy disrupted.

However, this raises a new issue. If the objective is to march on Bangkok, you are using the wrong axis. The Japanese bases in Thailand appear to be lightly held. If you swing a portion of your army to them you

(a) deprive the enemy of airfields, whih in turn will make Moulmein indefensible,
(b) directly threaten to march on Bangkok

The problem with the current axis is that


  • it is direcctly in the path of most enemy resistance
  • after you force the river crossing, you still have another river to cross to get into Moulmein
  • are you troops better prepared than the enemy for battle over Moulmein. I suspect the enemy will beat you in the PP race for Moulmein


At some stage you are going to have to pause to get the logistics right. On your current axis that pause will be either now or in the next hex, or at the very latest when you get into Moulmein. If you change axis you can take advantage of the inevitable pause to outmaneouvre your opponent.

Alfred

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RE: Cross river attack - 2/10/2013 1:47:14 AM   
CV 2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Just because there are 10 Japanese divisions across the river is not, per se, a reason to not cross the river yourself. It depends on several factors.

1. Apparenty half the enemy force is in very poor condition. Plus they will not be dug in. That state of affairs won't necessarily show up in AV but will impact adversely in the fire phase.

2. It therefore very much depends on how combat effective is the pursuing Allied force. The immediate concern is how fatigue and disrupted the Allied units are. The medium concern is the apparent lack of supply at both Rangoon and Pegu. If the Allied force is in good condition and a large amount of supply is incoming to Rangoon, the river crossing is a valid option.

3. The Allies must cross the river in a single bound. Sending over a part of the force on day 1 and the rest on subsequent days is not good.

4. It seems to me that the Allied airforce is capable of maintaining the enemy disrupted whereas the enemy is incapable of disrupting the Allies.

5. Taking into account the preceding points, bearing in mind that the shock attack will accentuate the firepower impact (hence the importance of the Allies being in good shape and Japan being in poor shape), there is a chance that a 2:1 result will ensue and the unfortified enemy divisions forced to retreat. However this is where the importance of incoming supply is seen as at the very least the entire Allied army will secure a lodgement and with good supply will recover quicker than the already beat up enemy.

6. If those preconditions don't exist, a pause will be in order as you

(a) get supply in, and
(b) move directly east in order to avoid the river crossing

This would not be a problem provided the airforce can keep the enemy disrupted.

However, this raises a new issue. If the objective is to march on Bangkok, you are using the wrong axis. The Japanese bases in Thailand appear to be lightly held. If you swing a portion of your army to them you

(a) deprive the enemy of airfields, whih in turn will make Moulmein indefensible,
(b) directly threaten to march on Bangkok

The problem with the current axis is that


  • it is direcctly in the path of most enemy resistance
  • after you force the river crossing, you still have another river to cross to get into Moulmein
  • are you troops better prepared than the enemy for battle over Moulmein. I suspect the enemy will beat you in the PP race for Moulmein


At some stage you are going to have to pause to get the logistics right. On your current axis that pause will be either now or in the next hex, or at the very latest when you get into Moulmein. If you change axis you can take advantage of the inevitable pause to outmaneouvre your opponent.

Alfred


Treat all river crossings as an atoll landing.

Personally from what I see of the map, I would go east from Pegu and then SW. Yes it will take longer to get into position. But the time you take to go around the river you will save in spades of not having to rest your force from the disruption you will receive just from crossing that river.

Unless....

You have a sh*tload of tanks. In that event, take the unit you have with the most tanks, plot across the river, and set everything to follow and push off.

< Message edited by CV 2 -- 2/10/2013 1:48:20 AM >

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RE: Cross river attack - 2/10/2013 3:32:35 AM   
bigred


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quote:

You have a sh*tload of tanks. In that event, take the unit you have with the most tanks, plot across the river, and set everything to follow and push off.


Yamato Hunger, good to see u on the threads...Yes I do have several tank brigades.
1. Will the rest of my units be able to keep up w/ armor in move mode?
2. I could set the armor to combat mode and all the others following to move mode.




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< Message edited by bigred -- 2/10/2013 3:38:57 AM >


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RE: Cross river attack - 2/10/2013 4:55:04 AM   
jmalter

 

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1) don't think so, mebbe better to set a leg unit to the destination, then "set all to follow" it.

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RE: Cross river attack - 2/14/2013 11:18:02 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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You're forgeting the rule witpqs mentioned above. Unless your armoured unit's AV equals 1/3 of the defenders unadjusted AV level, any follow up troops will need to shock attack to cross the river. You must force a crossing with troops totalling a minimum of 1/3 of the defender's AV to meet this rule and allow follow up troops to move freely into the hex. I see a trashed armoured unit and a disastrous river crossing in store for you if you follow through on what you propose. As Alfred suggested, you either cross with everything at once or not, going in piecemeal is generally not a good idea, especially if you don't meet the initial river crossing requirments.

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RE: Cross river attack - 2/15/2013 9:03:21 PM   
bigred


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

You're forgeting the rule witpqs mentioned above. Unless your armoured unit's AV equals 1/3 of the defenders unadjusted AV level, any follow up troops will need to shock attack to cross the river. You must force a crossing with troops totalling a minimum of 1/3 of the defender's AV to meet this rule and allow follow up troops to move freely into the hex. I see a trashed armoured unit and a disastrous river crossing in store for you if you follow through on what you propose. As Alfred suggested, you either cross with everything at once or not, going in piecemeal is generally not a good idea, especially if you don't meet the initial river crossing requirments.

Thanks sqz...so a recap:
1. If you make a cross river move w/ greater than 1/3 the defenders unadjusted AV then no shock attack.
2. If less than 1/3rd of the defenders AV then a shock attack will occur.
3. To minimize all worst case senarios the whole army should cross all at one time in combat mode(if in move mode then the army will shock attack(if needed)with a move mode AV value ).

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RE: Cross river attack - 2/15/2013 9:23:01 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

You're forgeting the rule witpqs mentioned above. Unless your armoured unit's AV equals 1/3 of the defenders unadjusted AV level, any follow up troops will need to shock attack to cross the river. You must force a crossing with troops totalling a minimum of 1/3 of the defender's AV to meet this rule and allow follow up troops to move freely into the hex. I see a trashed armoured unit and a disastrous river crossing in store for you if you follow through on what you propose. As Alfred suggested, you either cross with everything at once or not, going in piecemeal is generally not a good idea, especially if you don't meet the initial river crossing requirments.

Thanks sqz...so a recap:
1. If you make a cross river move w/ greater than 1/3 the defenders unadjusted AV then no shock attack.
2. If less than 1/3rd of the defenders AV then a shock attack will occur.
3. To minimize all worst case senarios the whole army should cross all at one time in combat mode(if in move mode then the army will shock attack(if needed)with a move mode AV value ).


1. No. You'll shock attack the first time regardless of your AV in relation to that of the defender. The 1/3 rule is for any troops that will cross the river later through the same hexside as the original assaulting force.

For example, lets say the defender has 1000AV and you make an initial crossing with 600AV and conduct the mandatory shock attack. You've met the 1/3 criteria for any additional troops you wish to move across the river through the same hexside as your original attacking force. It can be 100 AV or 1000AV, since you already met the 1/3 criteria they can cross freely without making a shock attack, or any attack for that matter.

However, if you attacked with only 250AV you'd still shock attack, but since you did not meet the 1/3 rule any additional troops that you wished to cross the river through the same hex side (regardless of their AV) would be forced to shock attack.

2. As above, any initial river crossing will initiate a shock attack. The 1/3 rule only applies to follow up troops in order to avoid any further shock attacks.

3. Yes and no. I'd recommend doing so. However, I once attacked Singapore with a smaller force initiating the shock attack for crossing the river (causeway), but I covered the 1/3 rule. I then marched across with the bulk of my army suffering no disruption or having to launch any additional attacks. It was a decision I made and it paid off, however, if I had misjudged the AV, I would have been in trouble with my follow up force and most likely would have had to make another shock attack risking wrecking my entire force. It really depends on the situation.

I should also add. If at some point you wanted to cross into the same hex while crossing the river, but from a different direction (hex side) you'd have to go through the entire process again. The river crossing rules, to my knowledge, are per hex side, not the hex itself.

I hope this makes sense and I apologize if my previous post wasn't clear or misleading.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 2/15/2013 9:29:54 PM >


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