Matrix Games Forums

To End All Wars: Mountain InfantryPandora: Eclipse of Nashira Announced! Deal of the Week: Command Ops goes half price!New Fronts are opening up for Commander: The Great WarCharacters of World War 1Sign of for the Pike and Shot Beta!More Games are Coming to Steam! Return to the Moon on October 31st! Commander: The Great War iPad Wallpapers Generals of the Great War
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Pilot training

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> Pilot training Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Pilot training - 2/8/2013 11:49:45 AM   
heibernt

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 1/31/2013
Status: offline
Hi there. As a new player the pilot training scheme seems quite hard to master in the beginning. Especially since you dont see the end result before atleast one year of the war has passed.

So can anyone take the time to give me a short intro to pilot training, especially for the allies?
For instance;

Fighter pilots, should they train sweep, or escort?
At what range does bomber train NavB, LNavB? And TB, when do they train ther different skills, do they need access to torpedos to train NavalT, and at what altitude?
How intense should the training be? And what is an aceptabel lvl of fatuige?
How many pilots per sqaudron, and how many planes?
Is there any point in sending experienced pilots to TRACOM as an allied player?
How efficent is training compared to flying low risk combat missions (like asw out of PH), and what if the combat mission dosent meet any opposition (for instance search missions that cant find any ships; do they still train there skills?
How do leaders affect training?

And im sure theres alot of questions im simply too ignorant to understand the imortance of yet :)

I am sure this has been discussed before, but all the treads i could find were so old i dont dare to trust them without confirmation that there still correct.. In that case, could someone point me to the good ones?

Thx

< Message edited by heibernt -- 2/8/2013 11:50:32 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Pilot training - 2/8/2013 2:42:52 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8321
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heibernt

Hi there. As a new player the pilot training scheme seems quite hard to master in the beginning. Especially since you dont see the end result before atleast one year of the war has passed.

So can anyone take the time to give me a short intro to pilot training, especially for the allies?
For instance;

Fighter pilots, should they train sweep, or escort?
At what range does bomber train NavB, LNavB? And TB, when do they train ther different skills, do they need access to torpedos to train NavalT, and at what altitude?
How intense should the training be? And what is an aceptabel lvl of fatuige?
How many pilots per sqaudron, and how many planes?
Is there any point in sending experienced pilots to TRACOM as an allied player?
How efficent is training compared to flying low risk combat missions (like asw out of PH), and what if the combat mission dosent meet any opposition (for instance search missions that cant find any ships; do they still train there skills?
How do leaders affect training?

And im sure theres alot of questions im simply too ignorant to understand the imortance of yet :)

I am sure this has been discussed before, but all the treads i could find were so old i dont dare to trust them without confirmation that there still correct.. In that case, could someone point me to the good ones?

Thx


Welcome to the game.

Others will chime in I'm sure, but I will list some things I do. They may not all be "correct", or optimal. Sometimes I misunderstand rules or how code works. I can emphasize that pilot training is a big part of the game if you let it be, but if you're playing the AI it's possible to do very well and win without paying it any attention. Mostly, as in all areas of the game, you should experiment. A lot of the fun in trying to master AE is in pushing into the corners of the game and seeing what happens. Playing the AI you can do this in private. In three complete grand campaigns my PC never once laughed at me.

Referencing your questions above:

1) I train fighter pilots on about a 90/10 ratio escort/sweep, at least in 1942. Escort includes the CAP mission, which will be a primary role for you, especially as Allies early. Later on to some extent I train sweep by aircraft model. If I know I will use that model for sweeping I train a unit which flies that model in sweeping. Bottom line for fighter pilots you should focus most on the Air and Defense skill column numbers, and secondarily on Experience. Either Sweep or Escort will pump these up, just at slightly different rates perhaps.

2) You don't need torpedoes to train LowNav as far as I know. Train below 5000 feet. You can train torpedo pilots in non-TB models, for example in patrol planes. This can help you early when torpedo bombers are precious. I train all DBs at 15,000 ft. I train all ground bombing and airbase bombing at 10,000 feet if it's a level bomber model. Strafing trains at 100 ft. Search trains at 6000. Recon at 15,000. ASW at 2000. Here I am talking about dedicated training groups, mostly in CONUS. If a frontline unit has a percentage assigned to training I usually don't exceed 10%, and the altitude will be, of course, whatever mission altitude is set to.

Range. An old trick used by most players now is to set training to 100% and Range to 0. Then monitor fatigue. You will get very good skill upgrades this way and minimize fatigue to pilots as well as airframes. IOW, the training stays in a 40 mile hex; it doesn't mean it's on the ground. In the game range flown is a primary driver of fatigue. Low level training, especially 1000 feet or lower, can build fatigue quickly, so watch it. You can sort by fatigue in the reports very quickly. Just establish a cut-off for yourself and when you hit it rest the pilots.

3) My fatigue limit unless a base is in extremis is about 20ish. If you use the Rest percentage you should be able to manage this on the fly without having to ground whole squadrons to sleep.

4) Pilots per squadron: as Allies every single slot should be full every single day if possible. You will never run out of pilots. Pilots not flying still gain stats slowly. In my current game I have units in combat with three working planes, but the unit has 25 pilots. This also keeps fatigue under control.

How many planes is a complex question which is controlled by many factors, mostly the size of your pools. It's far beyond the scope of a post on training. Simply said, fight where you must first, train where you can. Very often you can use obsolete models to train in CONUS or the HI. They don't need shiny new planes to learn on.

5) TRACOM for the Allies is personal preference. Many players use it as a stash for uber-pilots to be sourced for select units. Others don't use it at all. Japanese players can benefit from its role in speeding up the training pipeline. Japanese players CAN run out of pilots in the late war.

6) Flying real missions is the best training IMO. Others might disagree. No one knows exactly what the algorithms look like, and whether skill increases are strictly linear or not. Flying a peaceful mission will increase skills, but combat missions increase them faster. I'm not aware if the Search mission increases faster if something is found. I doubt it myself. Fighter and bomber pilots definitely benefit from combat.

7) Leaders affect training a lot. I use a rule of thumb to select a training leader first for AIR skill, and second for LEADERSHIP. Leadership acts "under the hood" in ways not ever fully disclosed by the devs, but it helps in all areas the leader affects. But primary is the warfare skill, here AIR. (Similarly, LAND for LCUs and NAVAL for ship drivers.) Many players select an air unit leader who is not going to fly, in order to not lose him and the PPs spent if he is shot down., I personally do not do this. For one it's fiddly, and second I think squadron leaders should, and did, lead their pilots into combat, not sit back at the base in the O-club. That's me though.

Hope this helps you wrap your arms around the thing a bit.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/8/2013 2:49:52 PM >


_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to heibernt)
Post #: 2
RE: Pilot training - 2/8/2013 3:26:06 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 2607
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

You don't need torpedoes to train LowNav as far as I know


In fact DocUp gave me a great idea of training fighter pilots to man P39's flying LowNav. A P39 carries (1) 500 pound bomb and enough of them can ruin the IJ's day .. I train 6 squadrons of bomber pilots at Low Navto fly B25's, specifically to station at Cooktown and interdict Port Moresby (they come in handy later). I have a Burma strategy so I train enough pilots to fill 4 squadrons of B25's to interdict IJ Bombardment SAG's that will evnetually smack Moulmein when I take it

One other thought I got was from Crsutton ... I really never understood "Train! Train! Train!" until I realzied there is a choice for those 4E's at Pendelton and Spokane. You can buy them out and get them on the front lines or you can "Train! Train! Train!". I suggest the latter. I might even suggest calculating exactly how many airgroups can be supported and where, and only committ the Allied airgroups needed toward a singular strategy. In my first game, I bought out units, sent them to the front lines, and eiher took horrendous losses due to inexperienced pilots (operational losses) or they sat in positions because of base force/base level limitations away from the front lines training, but I spent PP's for them thinking I could get them into battle. It is far better in my opinion to wait to spend PP's on airgroups and let them "Train! Train! Train!"

quote:

Range. An old trick used by most players now is to set training to 100% and Range to 0. Then monitor fatigue. You will get very good skill upgrades this way and minimize fatigue to pilots as well as airframes. IOW, the training stays in a 40 mile hex; it doesn't mean it's on the ground. In the game range flown is a primary driver of fatigue. Low level training, especially 1000 feet or lower, can build fatigue quickly, so watch it. You can sort by fatigue in the reports very quickly. Just establish a cut-off for yourself and when you hit it rest the pilots.


Great point Moose ..just to add a thought .. groups start at 40%/maximum range and will build up fatigue .. which leads to operational losses. One of the bookeeping tasks is to go thorugh every group and set them to 100% traiing/zero range.. but ... know that any aircraft upgrade insidiously sets the range to maximum range .. so now fatgue builds up very quickly. Add to that opertional losses are not conspicuously reported [combat report other shows XYZ crashing on landing] .. and groups start silently suffering losses of pilots and planes. I check WitPTracker every turn and set Pilots -> mission to screen training missions and look for 100%/range > 0 .. also I look for 40% training groups (new arrival groups that I missed in the combat reporter) and reset % and range in these new groups.

It does look like to me that operational losses are a threshold rather than a spectrum. That is the code seems to me look for "exp < 50 = operational loss P(x); exp <60 operational loss P(y); etc. with some random factor built in ... rather than P(operational loss) = 1/exp + P(factor) +P(random) .... thus I would suggest training to a minimum of 50 exp. before deployment is key to preventing grossly high ops losses ...that has nothing to do with skill levels as this group knows ...

_____________________________

Patients and providers of healthcare win with interprofessional practice http://ipep.arizona.edu/blog

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 3
RE: Pilot training - 2/8/2013 10:07:09 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1218
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline
some of my thoughts:

i train my DB pilots for NavAttack at 5-8k' - they'll train the NavB skill that is used regardless of the altitude (attack profile) selected for active ops. similarly, TB pilots will train for NavT at any altitude setting, even if no torps are available at their base.

having a goodly amount of LowN trained pilots is a good thing - from mid-42 on the Allies get plenty of B-25 Mitchell & A-20G 'Attack Bomber' types which can really bring the hurt. attack-bombers use a full ordnance load at low level, other bombers always use the extended-range load.

cross-training:
many plane types need pilots w/ more than one skill to be most effective.
- Fighters benefit from high Defense skill (train sweep at 100')
- DBs (especially those on CVs) need high Search skill as well as NavB, by mid-44 you'll want high GrdB as well.
- Attack Bombers will drop down & Strafe "to suppress flak" after they bomb. train them for Strafe (100' alt & any attack mission) as well as LowN & NavS.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 4
RE: Pilot training - 2/8/2013 11:44:25 PM   
jcjordan

 

Posts: 1738
Joined: 6/27/2001
Status: offline
My thoughts on training

When training always do it at 100% and range of 0 (keeps fatigue low) allowing more gains w/ less loss in pilots/planes. I also do my training at 10k unless I'm training for low skills. Strafe will need sweep mission & I found 100ft best alt for gain, some of the attack bombers (B25/A26) gain at 5000ft for low ground/naval. As Allied player it's hard early on as you don't have many groups that can be training groups but once you do just cycle replacement pilots into them for about 2-3months then release them to the reserve pool then draw more replacements into the unit

fighters - I train escort for 1mo at 10k -this should get them in the 60+ range for air along w/ some defense gain then train for another mo at sweep at 100 ft w/ gains in strafe/def so at the end should be -50-60+ in exp, air, def & strafe so pretty capable of living in combat but if I can I put them on active CAP at 100% range 0 for 1mo & they'll gain exp plus some extra air skill w/ little fatigue gain for another 1mo
For torp skill all you need for best gains is to have the unit set to have torp loaded but not fully needed just best gains when plane is set to have torps


(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 5
RE: Pilot training - 2/9/2013 12:45:54 AM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

Posts: 837
Joined: 12/1/2005
From: A Very Nice Place in the USA
Status: offline
I haven't noticed any fatigue build up. I routinely set my air units to 100% training, with 133% of pilots, whatever the default range is for that unit and an altitude that is needed and my units are at 0 fatigue.

< Message edited by Cpt Sherwood -- 2/9/2013 12:46:20 AM >

(in reply to jcjordan)
Post #: 6
RE: Pilot training - 2/11/2013 1:49:05 PM   
heibernt

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 1/31/2013
Status: offline
Thx for all the replies. Setting the range to 0 solved all the fatigue problems, and that opens up for a much more efficent training regime. By the way, conserning pilots, are there any direct effects of a pilot beeing named an ace? Or is it just an honorary title for killing 5 opponents?

(in reply to Cpt Sherwood)
Post #: 7
RE: Pilot training - 2/11/2013 2:50:32 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8321
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heibernt

Thx for all the replies. Setting the range to 0 solved all the fatigue problems, and that opens up for a much more efficent training regime. By the way, conserning pilots, are there any direct effects of a pilot beeing named an ace? Or is it just an honorary title for killing 5 opponents?


My impression is it's just nice chrome. It feeds into the Top Pilots list under the 'I' key.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to heibernt)
Post #: 8
RE: Pilot training - 2/11/2013 6:13:01 PM   
gmoney

 

Posts: 134
Joined: 11/22/2009
Status: offline
It seems to me that units in the rear gain fatigue very slowly, while units in contact with the enemy gain a lot of fatigue regardless of the training %. This mostly affects the Dutch since they are under siege early, but they are also in the most need of training. Range=0 helps, and training rest ration of 80/20 helps keep the fatigue manageable. Morale and/or fatigue may affect skill gains in training.

For training torpedo bombers you need to have the 'use torps' button active, even if red (no torps in range). Torpedo bombers take the longest to train to pre-war conditions (they have high Naval bombing, low naval, ground bombing and low ground bombing in addition to torpedo attack skills). Also should have decent NavS and ASW skills. I'd forgo low ground training them in low ground, and concentrate on torpedo, naval bombing and search/asw, later train low navalb and ground bombing. PBY units can train torpedo pilots, and generally have good leaders (60+ leadership).

For training fighters-use sweep/escort at any altitude to train air/def skills, then train strafe. This will raise air/def into the high 60s. To get the EXP to 50 I'll then train ground bombing @5k, as many allied units carry bombs later in the war. To train naval air pilots, use the kingfisher units on the west coast using sweep at 5k, then train strafing.

For Level Bombers I train at 5k, train ground bomb/navbomb/recon in that order. Some units train lownav/lowbomb/strafe-these pilots will be used in attack bombers. To squeeze out the last bit of def skill/raise exp up I train strafing (even in b17s).

For Dive bombers use 1-2 of the kingfisher groups on the west coast-train@5k bombing and navsearch, followed by Ground bombing and recon. I then train ASw till EXP=50

for Patrol A/C I train Nav search/asw follow by nav bombing/Recon to get to 50exp.

For recon A/C obviously train recon. Then I train NavSearch and use General training to get exp=50.

General training tips-try to give all your training squadrons leaders with leadership of 60 or more-this will greatly increase gains. Low experienced pilots train skills faster than experienced pilots-old dogs and new tricks and all. Range at 0 helps reduce fatigue. It doesn't matter how many A/C are in the group-1 plane can train 33 pilots, not sure if more A/C=faster training. Hope this helps

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 9
RE: Pilot training - 2/12/2013 8:32:12 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1218
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gmoney
It doesn't matter how many A/C are in the group-1 plane can train 33 pilots, not sure if more A/C=faster training.

hi gmoney,
inmyexperience, an airgroup w/ few planes (25%) can quickly train its full complement (133%) of Replacement pilots into the mid-high 40s for the selected skill, after that they do better with more planes in the sqn.

(in reply to gmoney)
Post #: 10
RE: Pilot training - 2/12/2013 8:51:42 PM   
alanschu

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline
I'm mostly "fire and forget" with my training and don't suffer much for OpLosses and the like. I usually specify about 60 or 70% training just in case, but don't typically care if people get fatigued.

One thing I have noticed is that keeping fighters on CAP will raise their base EXP too (I noticed most of my fighters in PH are now 60-70 exp despite not having much for actual combat duty). Though this will probably have higher OpLosses (didn't seem too bad).

Any chance I get, I use obsolete planes to do the training. Some P-43 Lancers work quite well IMO. I'm about to start suspending my training of US Army fighter pilots, as I'm up over 400 or so guys with 70 Air/Def

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 11
RE: Pilot training - 2/12/2013 9:25:16 PM   
gmoney

 

Posts: 134
Joined: 11/22/2009
Status: offline
I haven't noticed any increase in training skill gains with more A/C, but there are so many variables at play I could be wrong. I think the single most important thing to have is leaders with high leadership skills, I use 58 as my lower limit but prefer guys in their low 60s.

(in reply to alanschu)
Post #: 12
RE: Pilot training - 2/13/2013 2:19:47 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 2555
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
I've noticed a lack of training skill gains when the squadron is lacking aircraft.... Ask all those Allied bomber squadrons that start with a measly 1 plane (at least in Andy's Ironman, non-nasty version). Fill them up to the 16 pilots or thereabouts that they can take, and never have a replacement plane for them...and you'll still see skills in the 30s and 40s when you have to withdraw the units 3-4 months later. Note - I had them training from Day 1 at 80%, but with only the starting aircraft in the squadron (typically just 1, because I didn't have any replacements) until mid-February 1942. Granted, some could have had leaders with crap leadership skill (I didn't even consider replacing them with better ones, since the units were withdrawing anyway), but still...

Lack of sufficient quantities aircraft in training units seems to make a difference. Probably the more aircraft you are missing, proportionate to unit size, the worse it is.

(in reply to gmoney)
Post #: 13
RE: Pilot training - 2/13/2013 3:15:28 AM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4005
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
What is everyone's take (too lazy to read previous posts) and placing a highly trained and high leadership/inspiration pilot leader in each group to "speed up" training.

Anyone have proven results?

_____________________________

Follow our WiTPAE team PBEM game against bilbow and hartwig.modrow http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2965846&mpage=1&key=?

Follow my WITPAE PBEM game against Schanilec. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3495605

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 14
RE: Pilot training - 2/13/2013 4:17:50 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17861
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

What is everyone's take (too lazy to read previous posts) and placing a highly trained and high leadership/inspiration pilot leader in each group to "speed up" training.

Anyone have proven results?


I have an opinion, but I'm too lazy to type it out here.

_____________________________


(in reply to jeffk3510)
Post #: 15
RE: Pilot training - 2/13/2013 4:19:08 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17861
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline
Alright, just funning with you, Jeff.

I'm not convinced that what you're describing makes a whit of difference. Never heard convincing data (beyond the anecdotal) to support this.

_____________________________


(in reply to jeffk3510)
Post #: 16
RE: Pilot training - 2/13/2013 6:33:11 PM   
alanschu

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline
I agree with Chickenboy

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 17
RE: Pilot training - 2/13/2013 10:11:43 PM   
gmoney

 

Posts: 134
Joined: 11/22/2009
Status: offline
Did you change their commanders? I have the same units in the ironman scen with decent leaders and the skill gains are good even with one plane.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 18
RE: Pilot training - 2/13/2013 10:22:41 PM   
gmoney

 

Posts: 134
Joined: 11/22/2009
Status: offline
I have noticed a significant increase in skill gains with a high leadership commander in charge. Now this could just be that I've gotten lucky on dozens upon dozens of rolls, but it seems like high leadership skills lead to better skill gain. Identical units with the same training mission/type of A/C and number of A/C but with a different leadership abilities-one high leadership, one low leadership= the better led group increased in skills much faster than the other, less qualified leader. This also seems to be independent of actual "air skill". So I choose high leadership skilled commanders with low AIR skill and/or low AGGRESSION for my training squadrons. If I can get the time, I'll start a new campaign game and issue no orders other than training orders for the US, only changing some commanders around and let it run for a month or so.

(in reply to gmoney)
Post #: 19
RE: Pilot training - 2/14/2013 4:45:41 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 2555
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
Higher leadership is definitely better, however I'm not sure it's worth the PPs to change commanders for a unit that's going to leave after 90 days. Maybe on a couple of units, but all of them? That's a lot of PPs that I've always thought was better spent on buying out LCUs that will stick around for the whole war.

(in reply to gmoney)
Post #: 20
RE: Pilot training - 2/14/2013 4:54:44 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17861
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline
Just to avoid any confusion:

JeffK was asking about having a non-leader experienced pilot in the squadron and its effects on pilot training of rookies. I expressed that I haven't seen (or heard of) any documented benefit of this approach.

Other posters have talked about the benefit of having unit commanders / leaders with good stats. I think there has been sufficient evidence to show that this is beneficial.

Hope this clarifies this sometimes confusing topic. One must be very precise in their terms.

_____________________________


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 21
RE: Pilot training - 4/22/2013 12:39:41 PM   
Micah Goodman

 

Posts: 195
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline
Does placing veteran pilots increase the skill level of new pilots when they come into the game?

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 22
RE: Pilot training - 4/22/2013 4:47:03 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3633
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
No.

Each nationality has an experience range. New pilots in from completing their 12 month training course will not come in above the upper limit. Having that nations veteran pilots in TRACOM will help reduce the odds the newbies will graduate in the lower band of the range.

Alfred

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 23
RE: Pilot training - 7/9/2013 4:21:30 AM   
desicat

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline
Just moving this back up.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 24
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> Pilot training Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.102