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USSR Fighting Capabilities

 
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USSR Fighting Capabilities - 2/6/2013 12:20:40 AM   
battlevonwar

 

Posts: 217
Joined: 12/22/2011
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This is something that has not seemed to have changed in MultiPlayer Play since the the original patches. Is a gripe I hear constantly and one that I had faced early in my first two full multiplayer games. The problem is, is this is a game breaker. Not just a small or marginal exploit. The West may have weaknesses, but she can fight if in the right hands, somewhat. Though in the East?

Axis buildup, without the early Russian DOW on Germany Exploit(by 1941 the Axis can steamroll through the USSR and never stress or lose very much) Okay, this is fine up until a point. Though there is never a point or a time I have noticed so far when the the Russians get a Fighting capability to match the Axis. No sort of event, no sort of boost to their weapons and no patch so far(trying 1.4beta now) where they ever match or best the Axis.

Historically in 1940...The USSR could not defeat Finland, let alone fight Germany unless she joined forces with the Allies. Historically, the beginning Russian Units were near leaderless(even if Stalin was justified in his purges, sorta queer madness) he could not have fought a war so early. In 1941 he had a massive Military Machine that was crushed like a bug. By Winter though it was proven that the best Army in the World(Germany's at the time) could not win a war on terms that were not favorable. Like Japan vs the USA in the early Pacific Campaign where a quick smack and grab worked...so it did for Germany early... but Russia's Capitals were never taken. Like Japan vs the USA, The Giant....felt threatened, but was never beatable. This is a What If game, and takes into account a lot of What Ifs and Science Fiction(what makes it entertaining so we're not going to go into a historical insane recreation or anything)....... I know that the USA had something like 25-30 times the Industrial capability of the Japanese ... similarly the USSR had SO MUCH more men, more favorable terrain, more determined(fighting for their wives, families initially)

it was eventually all reversed. The Russian tanks were better, the Russian Tactics improved. We need to speed up with Conquest the Capability of the Russians. Their Fanaticism in WW2 is unparalleled. They would ram German Fighters if they could not shoot them down, they would ram German tanks if they could not blow them up. They would send men in groups, only 1 with a rifle and tell the men behind the other to pick up the dead man's rifle as he fell. It was this type of attitude that won, not just tactics, technology and numbers...

If the USSR is penetrated to the depths the best way to simulate reality I say is to make things stronger. The Russians developed better fighters, better tanks, guns. This happens too slowly here. They built more, they were tough...

We need a point in the game where if Moscow falls, I say a large group of highly effective Russian Units appear to retake objective. Same with Stalingrad... Even if these objectives are threatened. Unless you're going to blunt the German Spear. This the only way to find Multi player equality between Armies..

10-15 Russian Tank Corps(strength 15-25) 5-10 Russian Fighters level 2. 20-30 mixed Corps/Divisions, level 3.... in 1941 if need be... An Event Like Titanic Mobilization of the Russian People, to fight the oppressive Grey Giant?

Anyone agree? Plus I think you'll find with my modest numbers above with a huge 200% effectiveness capability that things are even without exploits needed. This game was not just designed for AI, there is always a way to defeat it, just repeat/repeat ...

Post #: 1
RE: USSR Fighting Capabilities - 2/6/2013 12:25:34 AM   
gwgardner

 

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One of the changes in 1.04 is to de-nerf the Russians. Let's see what happens.

(in reply to battlevonwar)
Post #: 2
RE: USSR Fighting Capabilities - 2/6/2013 1:23:41 AM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 409
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I don't care much for 'having units appear' based on a circumstance. Clearly the main issue is that the Germans started to fail logistically when at the end of long supply lines they had the same problem in Africa. In both cases 'reinforcements' can make the situation worse (what good is an extra 200 tanks with no gas and no ammo) Very difficult to model however. While not modifiable in any way that I know of a decreasing effectiveness based on the distance from a MSS over a threshold of say 30 or 40 hexes might do the trick.

Just boosting the USSR effectiveness a bit may help a bit with balance. Also I think there is a setting which puts the minimum possible effectiveness, which could be set to 5% instead of 1% ( I am not sure where the setting is off the top of my head however...)

_____________________________

"Don’t you think that if I were wrong, I’d know it?"

(in reply to battlevonwar)
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RE: USSR Fighting Capabilities - 2/6/2013 2:03:10 AM   
battlevonwar

 

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Joined: 12/22/2011
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Both points work to the same ends. Whatever is easier to implement and does the job is what I say. Sort of like modifying a hose in a car to get proper airflow. We're trying to streamline things in a way that will work and is easy...Realistic would be nice...for a realistic effect. I'm trying 1.4 alterations with Gardner myself, I am eager to see what happens! Already Soviet Forces are regaining strength on the 2nd turn.

"Initially, the Soviet forces conducted a strategic defence of the Moscow Oblast by constructing three defensive belts, and deploying newly raised reserve armies as well as bringing troops from the Siberian and Far Eastern Military Districts." ~So my concept isn't completely unrealistic to deal with the Juggernaut and for your point:

"As David Glantz pointed out in his book When Titans Clashed, by late October the Wehrmacht and the Red Army could be compared to "punch-drunk boxers, staying precariously on their feet but rapidly losing the power to hurt each other." The German forces were worn out, with only ⅓ of their motor vehicles still functioning, infantry divisions at ⅓ to ½ strength, and serious logistics issues preventing the delivery of warm clothing and other winter equipment to the front. Even Hitler seemed to surrender to the idea of a long struggle, since the prospect of sending tanks into such a large city without heavy infantry support seemed risky after the costly capture of Warsaw in 1939." ~Wiki

I am baby history lover as for WW2 but I have heard rails were not right and easy to convert. There were Winter Clothing shortages, to the front lines, German equipment didn't work right in the Cold(wasn't meant for it) After the battle, all of the German Armored Units were gone. Period. Meaning The Battle of Moscow as the end of the Offensive strength of the German Army. The = to destroying every panzer corp/division on the Eastern Front in game terms. I just want a balance here. Something similar, any way it can be achieved, practically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

I don't care much for 'having units appear' based on a circumstance. Clearly the main issue is that the Germans started to fail logistically when at the end of long supply lines they had the same problem in Africa. In both cases 'reinforcements' can make the situation worse (what good is an extra 200 tanks with no gas and no ammo) Very difficult to model however. While not modifiable in any way that I know of a decreasing effectiveness based on the distance from a MSS over a threshold of say 30 or 40 hexes might do the trick.

Just boosting the USSR effectiveness a bit may help a bit with balance. Also I think there is a setting which puts the minimum possible effectiveness, which could be set to 5% instead of 1% ( I am not sure where the setting is off the top of my head however...)


< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 2/6/2013 2:05:41 AM >

(in reply to JLPOWELL)
Post #: 4
RE: USSR Fighting Capabilities - 2/6/2013 8:43:50 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1686
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL
I don't care much for 'having units appear' based on a circumstance. Clearly the main issue is that the Germans started to fail logistically when at the end of long supply lines they had the same problem in Africa. In both cases 'reinforcements' can make the situation worse (what good is an extra 200 tanks with no gas and no ammo) Very difficult to model however. While not modifiable in any way that I know of a decreasing effectiveness based on the distance from a MSS over a threshold of say 30 or 40 hexes might do the trick.

Just boosting the USSR effectiveness a bit may help a bit with balance. Also I think there is a setting which puts the minimum possible effectiveness, which could be set to 5% instead of 1% ( I am not sure where the setting is off the top of my head however...)


Supply has been an issue since v1.0, with captured cities providing the invaders with too much supply, too early. Historically, mechanised advances seemed to run out of steam after about 200 miles, so like the idea of a threshold based on range from an MSS, except that as the front advances, after a time delay, the MSS should move forward, or delay when captured cities can provide supply (too quick at present). Rail repair also affects this, I am working with a longer delay on rail repair (reducing the probability odds for repair and extending the time to 5 turns), but there is not enough rail damage during an advance, so rail becomes too effective, too quickly, for the invader. We will see what the latest supply situation is going to be, when v1.04 is issued.

The other feature of mechanised advances is the loss of vehicles caused by the wear and tear of the march, such units should suffer a loss of strength points after several hexes of movement.

Reading 'Death Traps', Belton Y. Cooper, division maintenance battalion, US 3rd Armored Division - 1944/45, describing the 200 mile advance to close the Ruhr pocket and that an armoured task force moving 30/40 miles (a ToF hex size) a day, would lose 15/20 tanks out of 50, with maintenance problems. Most of these vehicles would quickly be back in the line, but would be out of action for at least some part of the move. The longer the move goes on, the more losses will accrue, until a halt allows the maintenance organisation to restore the unit to strength. Despite whatever other limitations they had, US vehicles were renowned as well built and reliable, with large stocks of spares, the situation for other nations could be even worse.

German vehicles suffered a high rate of breakdown (up to 50%) during the advance into Austria at 'Anschluss', against no opposition, performance got better in action, but still with a multitude of models and a spares nightmare. This impinges on the 'divisions are useless' and the 'Soviets are nerfed' issues, as armoured units are arriving, after long advances, with too much strength. A single division would find it difficult to defend 30 miles of front against a rested and prepared enemy, but against a unit at low strength after a significant advance, it could impose some delay, or stop the advance. Dug-in divisions could be quite useful as beach defence and rear defence lines, experimenting with longer entrenchment times in the 'const' file, to see if the bonus reflects the Soviet talent for digging deep.

Soviet vehicles suffered huge maintenance problems in 1941, 8th Mech Corps on SW Front, having stops every 15 mins on the march just to keep the AFVs going, obviously an extreme case, but losses on the move are inevitable.

So propose a % loss of strength points for armoured and mechanised units, for each hex passed, with strength being restored during turns where they do not move.



< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 2/6/2013 9:49:20 AM >


_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to JLPOWELL)
Post #: 5
RE: USSR Fighting Capabilities - 2/6/2013 12:12:04 PM   
Peter123

 

Posts: 203
Joined: 2/13/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

I don't care much for 'having units appear' based on a circumstance. Clearly the main issue is that the Germans started to fail logistically when at the end of long supply lines they had the same problem in Africa. In both cases 'reinforcements' can make the situation worse (what good is an extra 200 tanks with no gas and no ammo) Very difficult to model however. While not modifiable in any way that I know of a decreasing effectiveness based on the distance from a MSS over a threshold of say 30 or 40 hexes might do the trick.

Just boosting the USSR effectiveness a bit may help a bit with balance. Also I think there is a setting which puts the minimum possible effectiveness, which could be set to 5% instead of 1% ( I am not sure where the setting is off the top of my head however...)


This is a powerfull method to make scenarios to behave in a historical way:

METHOD:
Area.ChangeEffectivityOfAllUnits (int topLeftX, int topLeftY, int bottomRightX, int bottomRightY, int allianceID, int changeValue)

DESCRIPTION:
Changes the effectivity of all units of given alliance (Allowable allianceID values: 1=axis, 2=allied, 3=comintern, 4=neutrals) in the rectangle area set by (topLeftX, topleftY)-(bottomRightX,bottomRightY) to the end of the next turn. ChangeValue is a percentage change it may be positive (increased eff.) or negative.


You can change the efectiveness for areas of the map. Of course, you can add a time lapse and some randomness to the event.

(in reply to JLPOWELL)
Post #: 6
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