Matrix Games Forums

To End All Wars: Artillery Battle Academy 2: Eastern Front - End of Early Access Space Program Manager unveils its multiplayer modes Another update for Commander: The Great War!Distant Worlds: Universe gets a new updateDeal of the Week: Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich Advanced Tactics Gold is coming to SteamMatrix Games now speaks German!A little bit of history with To End All WarsBattle Academy 2 gets a release date!
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during summer?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Tech Support >> RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during summer? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 9:04:29 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2319
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
IIRC somewhere over the years I read it takes 10 men in the rear to put one guy up the front with a loaded rifle. All these support squads in HQ's have a job to do.

It seems some people expect to disband tons of HQ's and set the remaining HQ's TOE's to 50% and expect the system to work. They think they can get 5 men in the rear to support 5 men up the front with rifles. Guess what what? It don't work. What he sows he shall reep. He made his bed, let him lie in it I say.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 31
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 9:04:40 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1892
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: online
Units had to be taken out of the line to sufficiently rest and refit. You might not like it, but it does not sound far out of touch with reality..

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 32
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 9:07:27 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6314
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
Cannonfodder, units on a quiet, static section of the front shouldn't have to be pulled out of the line just to maintain their strength. But in WitE, the engine forces you to shuffle things back on forth regardless. I think it's tedious and not very realistic.



_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 33
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 9:19:55 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1892
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: online
But then again, weren't units nearly always understrength due to inefficiencies in the replacement system and constant frontline attrition (even in "quiet" sections of the front).

The game is to forgiving as it is...

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 34
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 9:28:25 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6314
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
Well, the weird thing is the game is very forgiving on the offense logistically, but punishing in static situations, at least so far as replacements go.

The entire line north of the Valdai has to be rotated back and forth in this game from 42 on. Leningrad, if cut off, is extremely difficult to maintain a garrison in; stuff in there just withers away and the amount of sea transport available isn't enough to keep up with the wastage. Basically, any unit in this area has to fall back to a rail line once every couple of months or so.

It gets better from 43 on when unit quality improves, but sub 50 units lose strength to attrition at a very rapid clip.






_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 35
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 9:50:49 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1892
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: online
Your right about the game being to forgiving in offensive situations. On top of that it punishes the units that are in contact with enemy units at the end of the turn (at the end of the week).

If the game would be consistent then any unit that has been in contact with the enemy in a given turn would take attrition losses, not the just the units that are in contact in the logistical turn execution.

Is this something that has been suggested?

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 2/6/2013 9:51:26 PM >


_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 36
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 9:54:54 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5760
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IIRC somewhere over the years I read it takes 10 men in the rear to put one guy up the front with a loaded rifle. All these support squads in HQ's have a job to do.

It seems some people expect to disband tons of HQ's and set the remaining HQ's TOE's to 50% and expect the system to work. They think they can get 5 men in the rear to support 5 men up the front with rifles. Guess what what? It don't work. What he sows he shall reep. He made his bed, let him lie in it I say.


This is not true at all as far as HQ goes.

In the 4 games I have in 43.

2 games I have disbanded 40+ Corps HQ's and I have no pool issues. 1 being our old game.

2 games I have only disbanded 2 and 11 I am having pool issues.

I have to look, but the issue seems to be the HQ %.

The 2 armys I am having the biggest issue with in this game have 4 Corps, good commander in supply ect ect.

The SHC armys are set-up with an army HQ only.

I have played both sides and the GHC armys run much better with 1 Corp with 3 panzer units and 9+ infantry units under the army HQ.

1. You get 2-3x the SU commitment (8 to 18 ect battle). I have moved the AA regiments to the front in this game under army HQ's 2 per army and one per Corp in the hot areas. I am getting 200+ 88's per battle. Big help!
2. You also get 66% ( 100% if you break down the 3 divisions into regiments) reserve activations. Normal set-up you only get 4 to 8 SU commitments and 33% chance of a reserve activation.

The supply issue is as Flaviusx states running poorly, but as a SHC or GHC player it looks like you need to have 100% at all lvls.

I have tried the switching units on and off as GHC and it simply doesn't help.

As GHC you will have to keep all units at 100% other then low morale units. GHC simply doesn't have the units to take of the line as SHC does. Mybee a dozen at a time.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/6/2013 10:01:53 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 37
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 9:57:04 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5760
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Thanks for checking into it JB and for advice Flaviusx.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 38
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 10:05:08 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5760
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Your right about the game being to forgiving in offensive situations. On top of that it punishes the units that are in contact with enemy units at the end of the turn (at the end of the week).

If the game would be consistent then any unit that has been in contact with the enemy in a given turn would take attrition losses, not the just the units that are in contact in the logistical turn execution.

Is this something that has been suggested?


I have 2 areas that I have been with drawing 1 or 2 hexes a turn and it doesn't seems to help much. I think the huge issue is simply HQ%, it needs to be at 100% or the system slowly brakes down.

I have put everything at 100% other then forts. Hopefully it will lvl out quickly and by snow things will be back to normal 50kish.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 39
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 11:29:31 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21139
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
I did run tests where I first put all Pelton's units on refit with Max TOE of 100 and ran a turn and the manpower pool was drained. I then put all non fort units on 100% Max TOE and refit (leaving forts at 50% max toe) and the manpower and aramanets pools dropped to below 100k each. So there are things you can do to use up more of what you have. You just may not get them exactly to where you want them to go. As stated, it's especially tough to get large quantities of rifle squads and support into a unit in one turn if they are competing with many other units for resources.



_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 40
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 12:08:32 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2319
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Chicken Little strikes again

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 41
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 8:57:37 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 1972
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


Even down south with good supply you still have to shuffle units around from front to rear simply because rifits aren't guaranteed to work on the front line and units will not draw from the pools.

I get that replacements ought to be difficult at the ragged edge of an advance where logistics are strained at the breaking point. But the existing game engine makes replacement difficult in situations well short of that where it ought not be an issue at all.


I believe there was a change ( by one of the patches ) that refit mode will not work for units in contact with the enemy, guaranteed?

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 42
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 10:23:05 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5760
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Chicken Little strikes again


Not really, it high lights what can and can't be done now because of changes made in system and very much supports Flaviusx point of the replasement system now being worse then it was before the last change.

Also SHC units in static mode become unrdy after 2 or 3 turns, which did not happen before. Making static mode a non option for SHC


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 43
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 10:54:18 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2319
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
The point is Pelton every time something in one of your games gets out of whack your knee jerk reaction is to cry bug. Which results in wasting other peoples time to prove otherwise. When in the end it is just your own making through the settings you choose. The replacement system, whether good or bad has been unchanged now for some considerable time. Once again its WAD.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 44
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 11:05:04 AM   
morvael


Posts: 3777
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
The rulebook says static units below 60% TOE are automatically treated as on refit. But that was so since 1.0, which didn't have later rule that refit on front lines no longer works (only 25% more chance for replacements _in the normal segment_ now). I can imagine it can cause problems in an army where everyone competes for replacements.

Whining is bad, but sometimes enough data can be collected through the game that something is indeed wrong, as I have found out with my howitzer and AA regiments. And sometimes 2by3 fix it :)

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 45
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 12:56:46 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6314
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
Static mode simply is not an option for the Sovs. It doesn't matter that they are automatically on refit, since contact with the enemy makes refit chancy at best. Their strengths will drop due to attrition and you will eventually have to activate the damn things to run them back to a rail line. Even worse, it's a net loss of APs. That alone makes static mode an non starter. (parenthetically, static mode is why the 42 scenario is unplayable. Half the Red Army is set to static mode. With your mobility crippled and crazy salients, the Axis need not screw around with Stalingrad, they can just chop up the Red Army.)

Near as I can tell attrition hits the Sovs much harder than the Germans due to larger forces in contact with the enemy and also because of the low quality of Soviet units. Units above 50 morale seem to take fewer attrition losses. So by 43 it's not so bad. But attrition due to static fronts chews through the average 1942 stuff. The effect is especially pronounced on the northern end of the map.





_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 46
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 1:03:25 PM   
morvael


Posts: 3777
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
Attrition hits Soviets also because they have low % of core support squads in divisions (usually around 40%).

But I wanted to point out that the Static mode was made useless by changes done to Refit, not that it was bad when the game was designed and launched with 1.0 version. Once Refit was made no longer working for units at front line, Static mode should be somehow altered as well.


(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 47
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 1:13:57 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6314
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
They also have to do something about reactivation costs. They are out of control. 50+ APs to reactivate a mech corps?

IMO static mode should be AP neutral. The cost to reactivate ought to be equal to whatever APs get kicked out by setting them to static in the first place. Only the Axis can afford this kind of extravagant use of APs at present. The Red Army can't afford it.



_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 48
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 4:58:54 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 397
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline
In my opinion there shouldn't be an AP cost for going into & or out of static mode at all. What should happen is there is a gradual increase movement points over 3 turns also units in static mode should be able to increase forts to a Maximum of 5 & the attrition costs should be considerably lowered.
Another thing static units should only be infantry units.
Manstein63

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 49
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 10:06:05 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1892
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

In my opinion there shouldn't be an AP cost for going into & or out of static mode at all. What should happen is there is a gradual increase movement points over 3 turns



I like the idea behind this. Troops that had been static for a long time had a lot of difficulty retreating..

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 50
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 11:49:02 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5760
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The point is Pelton every time something in one of your games gets out of whack your knee jerk reaction is to cry bug. Which results in wasting other peoples time to prove otherwise. When in the end it is just your own making through the settings you choose. The replacement system, whether good or bad has been unchanged now for some considerable time. Once again its WAD.


asking questions is not a sin as you seem to think.

morvael/Flaviusx/Mainstein63 and cannonfodder all see issue's with the current rulesets of refit/supply/static mode.

1v1=2v1 was working as designed but was a joke which I was leading the charge in getting changed and it was.

As myself and others can see there is and issue with the current ruleset, it is by design yet it is not working as it should.

Basicly now static mode is usless for both sides and as GHC you have to leave HQ's at 81% ( found the thresh hold ) and all other units at 100% or they will drop slowly over time even if not on the front lines on railheads.

Information is a good thing. Some times getting it is ugly, but nessary to better the game.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 51
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/7/2013 11:54:14 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2319
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Pelton, of course discussing a mechanic of the game is acceptable. Thats what we do. But your first instinct is to cry bug. Thats my complaint.

If its discussion you want open a thread in the main folder. Not shoot from the hip about the game being bugged in the tech forum. This is not a tech issue. Never was.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 52
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/8/2013 2:16:10 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5760
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Pelton, of course discussing a mechanic of the game is acceptable. Thats what we do. But your first instinct is to cry bug. Thats my complaint.

If its discussion you want open a thread in the main folder. Not shoot from the hip about the game being bugged in the tech forum. This is not a tech issue. Never was.


I could really care less what your complaint is or what you think.

But it is fun to read your whiny posts, so keep posting I need a good laugh from time to time.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 53
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/8/2013 10:59:58 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 4871
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline
Please keep the personal attacks out of this thread or it will be locked. Thanks.

_____________________________

We don't stop playing games because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing games - Anon.

WitE Alpha/Beta Tester

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 54
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/12/2013 6:32:55 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5760
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Kamil is having issues in his game. He unlike me has HQ's and other units at 100%, but he still has 100k of stuff in pools.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3202999&mpage=8

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Replacements situation (one of many shortcomings of game engine) massively spoils my current game and it fells like WitE should end in summer of '43. I am deeply disappointed, because my struggle against Mike was my most enjoyable encounter so far, but current system will soon take most of the pleasure away by imposing trench warfare and boring passive defence.


At the moment German player is forced abandon attack far to quickly because of designed snowball-effect.

I attack so I suffer loses and they won't properly be replaced. So to maintain momentum I need to weaken other parts of front handing initiative to Soviets everywhere but in area of attack.

My forces on the flanks get beaten so they suffered losses, but obviously they won't be replaced, so either I continue attacking and make situation on flanks even worse or I switch to defence and slowly rebuild forces what won't change anything, because by the time German forces regains strength Red Army will be too strong for any prolonged attempts to create pockets. Once it happens attacking stops being option for Germans, because loses ratio favours Soviet massively.

And it leads to constant withdrawal for one side, and dull grinding for the other.



Game is to be fun and WitE slowly stops providing it.

After removing +1 rule '42 was fun. Not so any more.




Having said that, I don't want to take anything from Mike who is playing better than me, but I need to add that current replacement system is not helping me at all and I feel this is factor that is tipping the scales.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Game is good and lively, but I find it irritating when I have 450k manpower in pool and my divisions melt-away.

Imagine situation when all of my divisions were 15 to 20% stronger. It would be the case if replacements were being send properly to the front.


I have lots of 2CV infantry divisions, that have morale in low 70s and I can't do anything to increase number of infantry squads.




< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/12/2013 6:35:19 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 55
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 3/7/2013 11:33:42 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 2319
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline
Bump
Pelton, how many of your 450k men are stuck in transfer pool ?

_____________________________

WitE Beta-tester - aircraft data modifications
WitE 1.08 development/testing
WitW aircraft data

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 56
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Tech Support >> RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during summer? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.106