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250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during summer others have same issue

 
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250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during sum... - 2/4/2013 6:33:42 PM   
Pelton

 

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On turn turn 110 I had 264,000 armaments and 350,000 men in pool. Now on turn 114 I have 279,000 armaments and 447,000 men in pools. Its clear weather, everything is on refut and has been all summer. Every unit is withen supply.

The front line units are simply not getting men many are at 70+ morale with less then 50% toe. I have been rotating units of line and back in but I have a massive amount of men and equipment sitting in pools for some reason.

This is Germany only.

Let me know who to send file to.




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/12/2013 6:35:52 PM >


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GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 6:43:34 PM   
Pelton

 

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One of AG's infantry

Over 1/2 of my infantry are below 70% toe. The fighting is really not that hvy. 18 retreats and 13 holds and that was a more active turn. Basicly been 20 to 25 battles per turn.

Look at the 336th infantry division 9 battles total and they are at 58%?






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/4/2013 6:51:36 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 2
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:13:36 PM   
Flaviusx


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Try putting everything on refit and see what happens. I know for the Soviets this same accumulation of replacements tends to happen later on in the war when all the front line elements are on normal mode. The replacement system doesn't push everything into the units and elements rapidly pile up. So every couple of months or so I would drain the pools by putting everything on refit and this emptied the pools quickly, even with the penalties associated with refits on front line units. Then put it all back on normal mode (and the pools will start building up again.)

The replacement system just isn't very efficient and has to be forced to cough up the goodies in this fashion.

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:21:44 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Try putting everything on refit and see what happens.


He stated that everything was on refit, and in his screenshot everything is on refit.

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:25:15 PM   
Flaviusx


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Sigh.

I don't think it's a bug, the replacement system now just sucks. It's very inefficient and pools will go up after a while unless you jump through a lot of hoops. It's going to hit the Germans harder than the Soviets, too, due to lower numbers of units and an inability to pull much off the front line into reserve. The Soviets can get around this to some extent.

The old replacement system was better.

I notice the max TOE are set at 85%. Maybe jack that up to 100% globally and see if that forces the routines to reinforce them somewhat.

Really, they need to put back in the old way it worked where refits gave 100% guaranteed replacements to front line units if said replacements were available. Then we could discard all this tedious micromanagement. The attrition shuffle just needs to go away.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 2/4/2013 7:36:24 PM >


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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:34:06 PM   
Pelton

 

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Everything is on replasement as I stated alrdy guys and has been for the last 110 turns

Some untis have been of line for several turn and are not getting anything.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/4/2013 7:35:40 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:38:28 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Sigh.

I don't think it's a bug, the replacement system now just sucks. It's very inefficient and pools will go up after a while unless you jump through a lot of hoops. It's going to hit the Germans harder than the Soviets, too, due to lower numbers of units and an inability to pull much off the front line into reserve. The Soviets can get around this to some extent.

The old replacement system was better.

I notice the max TOE are set at 85%. Maybe jack that up to 100% globally and see if that forces the routines to reinforce them somewhat.

Really, they need to put back in the old way it worked where refits gave 100% guaranteed replacements to front line units if said replacements were available. Then we could discard all this tedious micromanagement. The attrition shuffle just needs to go away.


The thing that gets me is during 1942 the fighting was 3x as hvy as now. Its dam summer!

WT hell happens in the winter?


Only 1 units is above 85% why would it need to be 100%

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/4/2013 7:39:16 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 7
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:41:18 PM   
Flaviusx


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Are these units in the rear on a rail line? Sometimes pulling them off the front isn't enough in areas where the supply network is sketchy, terrain bad, etc. You have to park them on a rail line to be totally sure.

What happens during the winter (and mud too) is that replacements have a much harder time reaching the front line or even stuff in the rear that isn't sitting directly on a rail line. Throughput goes to hell.




< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 2/4/2013 7:43:54 PM >


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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:45:00 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Sigh.

I don't think it's a bug, the replacement system now just sucks. It's very inefficient and pools will go up after a while unless you jump through a lot of hoops. It's going to hit the Germans harder than the Soviets, too, due to lower numbers of units and an inability to pull much off the front line into reserve. The Soviets can get around this to some extent.

The old replacement system was better.

I notice the max TOE are set at 85%. Maybe jack that up to 100% globally and see if that forces the routines to reinforce them somewhat.

Really, they need to put back in the old way it worked where refits gave 100% guaranteed replacements to front line units if said replacements were available. Then we could discard all this tedious micromanagement. The attrition shuffle just needs to go away.


In my game vs MT there are no replasement issues fighting is much much hvyer.

What your saying is because of 2by3 screwed up "new" replasement system SHC will win in early 1944. Because GHC OOB will be at 2 million with 1.5 million men and 500k arm pts in pools by early 44?

Thats a complete and utter break down of the game engine and makes the game simply unplayable in 1943 to 45.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:50:22 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Are these units in the rear on a rail line? Sometimes pulling them off the front isn't enough in areas where the supply network is sketchy, terrain bad, etc. You have to park them on a rail line to be totally sure.

What happens during the winter (and mud too) is that replacements have a much harder time reaching the front line or even stuff in the rear that isn't sitting directly on a rail line. Throughput goes to hell.





Its been summer for 12 turns.

The army in screen shot is in the south so terrain/weather are simple not issue and all rail lines are working I have a sht tons of trucks ect ect ect ect bect ect.

I had NO ISSUES in 41, 42 and winter of 42-43.

Its the dam summer in the freaking open with great supply and units are not and have not been getting replasements.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 10
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:52:00 PM   
Pelton

 

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Poeple guessing why replasements are not getting to the front in late summer are simply guessing.

Its army wide north to south in combat or not in combat. On line or not on line. On a rail head or not on a rail head.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/4/2013 7:53:05 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:53:49 PM   
Flaviusx


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It's not new. It's been around for a while. But I remember when it got changed and I have hated it since then. It causes problems on both sides, btw, not just the Axis, but the Axis can't make use of the same expedients the Soviets do to deal with it. Replacement throughput is a real problem even for the Soviets up in the north.

In your game with MT your supply situation is nearly pristine. It is a mostly static front with all rail lines functioning and no unit father away than a handful of hexes from a rail line. So I wouldn't expect to see any problems there with replacement throughput.





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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:53:51 PM   
Pelton

 

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Kinda like I am stuck in the 41-42 blizzard and not 43 summer

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GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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Post #: 13
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 7:55:03 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's not new. It's been around for a while. But I remember when it got changed and I have hated it since then. It causes problems on both sides, btw, not just the Axis, but the Axis can't make use of the same expedients the Soviets do to deal with it. Replacement throughput is a real problem even for the Soviets up in the north.

In your game with MT your supply situation is nearly pristine. It is a mostly static front with all rail lines functioning and no unit father away than a handful of hexes from a rail line. So I wouldn't expect to see any problems there with replacement throughput.







Your up north for SHC is simply 100% not true.

Hughs massive offensive is in the north and hes not having any issue's try again. Hes not even rotationing units.

I have units sitting on railheads getting zero try again




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/4/2013 8:06:40 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 14
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 8:08:30 PM   
Pelton

 

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Is it possible that the weather effects are not right?

We had hvy combat in winter and I had no replsement issues, but come summer its a huge issue for no reason.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 15
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/4/2013 9:31:17 PM   
morvael


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My army registers the biggest positive jumps in size during mud turns, even taking lack of combat casualties into account. Is it because I am forced to move my HQs closer to the units to maintain command range, and the reinforcement formula takes absolute distance into account?

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/5/2013 9:57:57 AM   
Saper222


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Germany can not build heavy gun,flak after start, only infantry arms and disband some support units. I loss 2 game, after I do this - I won 5 as 5. No problem in 42-44 year. For example my game with Harrybanana on 6/42




Attachment (1)

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/5/2013 10:00:57 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Saper222

Germany can not build heavy gun,flak after start, only infantry arms and disband some support units. I loss 2 game, after I do this - I won 5 as 5. No problem in 42-44 year. For example my game with Harrybanana on 6/42





Not sure what your tring to say, sorry.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Saper222)
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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/5/2013 10:25:58 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn sent in to be looked over.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 19
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/5/2013 10:29:06 AM   
morvael


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I think he tries to say and show that his units are at 95% TOE and he has lots of men, tanks and guns. To achieve this, he disbands/reduces use of heavy artillery and flak units.

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/5/2013 1:40:17 PM   
gingerbread


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So there is a hard coded build limit for some elements like heavy guns & flak? So if any limit is reached, nothing will be produced or production will be severely limited?

Or you have to have an even larger pool of ARM (500k, 1M?) for the infantry small arms to be produced?

Very interested in which Support Units that saper disbands, i.e. which ground elements those contain if production of certain elements clogs up production.

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/5/2013 9:58:19 PM   
Joel Billings


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It is harder to get larger armament items built in quantity.

I'm assuming based on the last time we looked at this that we're probably just dealing with normal friction in the replacement system. In order to look into this in more detail we'd need a save at the end of the Soviet turn (so we can end the turn and have it go immediately to the Axis supply phase). If we get that save, and the save at the start of the next German turn we could possibly take a look to see why units in refit in the rear aren't getting more replacements (assuming they are available). You can have you opponent send us the save directly to 2by3@2by3games.com, and then send us the German turn when you get it. Once we have both, we'll have the ability to look into what's happening.

I wouldn't hold anything up though, as I really don't expect to find anything but the normal friction in the supply phase.

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/5/2013 11:08:33 PM   
hfarrish


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I am the opponent in question and will send this tonight.

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/5/2013 11:34:37 PM   
Pelton

 

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Seeing this is a PBeM we can keep going and if something is found we can come back a few turns.

The Red Horde is about to start plowing towards Berlin and I am sure Hugh can't wait to bleed me white asap hhehehee

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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Post #: 24
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 6:04:44 PM   
Joel Billings


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I got the saves, thanks. I would strongly suggest you keep moving. I spent about 20 minutes on the phone with Gary about this, and later will ask Pavel when I get a chance. Based on Gary's comments, and Pavel's prior statements the last time he looked into replacements, there is not going to be a simple answer to this. Actually there is a simple answer and it's that the replacement system is horribly complex, and has at many places blocks inserted to keep units from easily getting a large number of replacements. This is because of the way the system works, you don't want the first unit in line to suck up everything so that others get nothing. This goes for sucking up armaments, manpower, and equipment from the pools. There is also the limits put on the on demand armaments system so that you can't go out and build tons of certain equipment all at once.

There is a rule that HQ's have a harder time to make admin rolls when they are short of support (the less they have versus their TOE, the worse it gets). I did run a test taking all of Pelton's units off refit other than a few units in the rear on rail lines. What I saw was that although the refitting units did not fill up, they got significantly more replacements, and in fact the division I was focused on filled up to its 85% level in all items except Rifle and Support Squads and AT-guns. The AT gun could have hit a limit due to the on-demand system, and the rifle and support squads clearly hit issues of getting too many of a particular element in a turn (i.e. they needed hundreds of a particular element, and there are blocks in against getting too much of a particular element on a turn (so rifle and support always lag other elements). I then noticed that the particular division I was looking at was attached directly to an Army HQ that had 70% of its TOE in support. I also noticed that Pelton has lots of units with Max TOE level restrictions preventing them from getting replacements. The combination of having many units with Max TOE limits, and many HQs set to have less than their 100% TOE means there are some player blocks coming into play that are adding to the already complex system that has many ways to limit replacements. As part of this test, I put a fort unit in the rear on refit and set it to 100% max toe and it filled up immediately on all elements except for support (which has its own limits based on what the unit needs, yet another block).

It is very possible that when manpower/armament/equipment pools are low, there are additional limits on the systems to prevent items from going to units. Gary has memory of writing that kind of code, but the code has had many changes made over the past few years so it's not easy to determine exactly what these are. You should not expect to use up all your manpower and armaments points, and the more you limit your units my capping their Max TOE levels and by reducing your HQ support levels, the more stuff will end up unused.

Pelton, I suggest you set some of your Max TOE's higher for some units (especially HQ's unless you have a manpower crunch) and you'll probably see more stuff getting used. I don't see a bug here.



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Post #: 25
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 6:19:37 PM   
Flaviusx


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Joel, why not make the replacement system a bit less inefficient?

It's crazy that it produces results like this among others. (This is by no means the only such occasion of rising pools I've seen.) Yes, modeling throughput friction is a good idea in principle, but in practice I think the current engine goes too far.

I never believed there was a bug here. The system is just remarkably poor at pushing forward replacements unless you micromanage the hell out of it. It did not used to be as bad, and maybe we got it right in the earlier iterations.

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Post #: 26
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 7:07:25 PM   
Kamil

 

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quote:

Flaviusx

Joel, why not make the replacement system a bit less inefficient?

It's crazy that it produces results like this among others. (This is by no means the only such occasion of rising pools I've seen.) Yes, modeling throughput friction is a good idea in principle, but in practice I think the current engine goes too far.

I never believed there was a bug here. The system is just remarkably poor at pushing forward replacements unless you micromanage the hell out of it. It did not used to be as bad, and maybe we got it right in the earlier iterations.


I have same feeling.

In my current game I play axis and at the beginning of turn 65 I have pools full of unused resources - 400k manpower and 160k armament (number of refitted units changes on turn to turn basis, but it is set to include at least 1/4 and at most all available forces).

< Message edited by Kamil -- 2/6/2013 7:10:09 PM >

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 7:22:22 PM   
elmo3

 

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It will probably get looked at again for WitE 2, but don't expect changes to very complex code that might give some benefits but might just as easily cause more problems than it fixes.

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RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 8:35:50 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

The system is just remarkably poor at pushing forward replacements unless you micromanage the hell out of it.


The way I read Joel's post is that the micromanaging itself that is having a negative influence.

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Post #: 29
RE: 250k Armements/ 447k manpower stuck in pools during... - 2/6/2013 9:01:52 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

The system is just remarkably poor at pushing forward replacements unless you micromanage the hell out of it.


The way I read Joel's post is that the micromanaging itself that is having a negative influence.


In this case perhaps, but even with HQs at full TOE replacement inefficiencies happen. And by micro, I mean the endless shuffling of units back and forth to put them in locations where their chances to draw on the pools is maximized. The worse the supply net locally, the more intensive the micro, even where a front is totally static and no major combat operations are going on in the area. And no, putting stuff on static mode doesn't necessarily improve things.

This is a major headache up north from 42 onwards as the Soviet. Obviously the Axis has its own issues.

Even down south with good supply you still have to shuffle units around from front to rear simply because rifits aren't guaranteed to work on the front line and units will not draw from the pools.

I get that replacements ought to be difficult at the ragged edge of an advance where logistics are strained at the breaking point. But the existing game engine makes replacement difficult in situations well short of that where it ought not be an issue at all.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Seminole)
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