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Status of Old Games - 2/4/2013 3:16:34 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 1188
Joined: 3/18/2004
Status: offline 		Erik Rutins recently posted this:

quote:

Hi guys,

In response to the many requests late last year, I just wanted to let you know that we are very interested in continuing to develop and improve TOAW, including the possibility of a TOAW IV in the future. We've been in contact with Ralph, who we would really like to be the developer going forward as he has been in the past. Ralph is going through some tough times and I think it will be some time before he is ready to start a new project or invest significant development time. Our preference is to give Ralph some time and hope that he will be available in the medium-term, but I know a lot of you are impatient for faster progress. Unfortunately I don't have better news right now than to say that whatever may come, it is not our intention to "retire" TOAW, it's our goal to continue and improve it.

We appreciate very much the work of all members of the TOAD team and the community in helping us improve TOAW to date and we're also interested in your feedback on where we should go with TOAW in the future.

Regards,

- Erik


Which is great. But it would be nice to get some official updates from Matrix on other games that are not on the "Discontinued Games" list; i.e., still sold and supported. Lots of games seem to hit a plateau and die in place, when perhaps a little more TLC would help a lot. For Liberty!, Commander Napoleon at War, and Empires in Arms come to mind, among others.

This begs a question, and I know it's a sensitive subject regarding developer's priorites and propriety rights and such, but can't Matrix/Slitherine do a little bit more to encourage its developers to continue game improvements or, at some point, promote 3rd-party developers to help keep old games alive? A good example is the Grand Strategy mod for Commander Europe at War. If the original developer cannot or will not continue to improve a game, then let someone else work on it.
Post #: 1
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/4/2013 5:07:16 PM   
J P Falcon

 

Posts: 2225
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		Well all I can do is respond to your interest in Commander Napoleon at War by stating that they do not feel it is financially worth the effort to improve that title. Sometimes I wonder if Matrix would be served by starting up a pledge system, similiar if you will to Kickstarter, where they could gauge the actual interest in an upgrade of old titles by the number of pledges (or "preorders" if you like) that they received. Say for example that they came forward with a pledge system for CNaW where they would need 500 pledges to produce the new title. As an incentive, the pledge amount would have a discount from the street price. They could set a drop dead dead or let it continue until the goal is reached. When and if it is successful alll of the pledger's payments would be processed. Now I know that some people will not like the idea of paying for a game that may take quite awhile to produce but that is something one needs to understand going into the agreement.

This process is done all the time in the boardgaming world and I'm not referring to KS in this instance. I have quite a few boardgames preordered such as Fleet Commander Nimitz over at DVG, Cuba Libre, The Hunters, Navajo Wars and Cactus Air Force at GMT and Redvers Reverse: The Battle of Colenso 1899 at Legion Wargames to name but a few, so it is a good work around to measure the interest in a game before it is produced.

< Message edited by J P Falcon -- 2/4/2013 5:17:49 PM >

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 2
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/4/2013 5:28:12 PM   
wodin


Posts: 6503
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Cactus Airforce and The Hunters look like good ones.

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Post #: 3
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/4/2013 6:17:09 PM   
Rtwfreak

 

Posts: 305
Joined: 12/11/2011
Status: offline 		I don't want old games remade I want "new" games created. I could care less for a TOAW XXX version. Like Hawkeye in MASH said "We want something New", "We want something New", "We want something New".

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 4
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/4/2013 6:27:18 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 1188
Joined: 3/18/2004
Status: offline 		A pledge system is ok for new titles, or reprinting, like GMT does. But something about computer games is different and may need a different approach. There's pre-release development where the developer is essentially on his own, then an income stream from sales after release, and then an active period of patches and upgrades for a couple of years (maybe), but then as sales taper off there's no financial incentive for the developer to keep working on the game. In some cases a new game engine is necessary to provide new features, so a new game is warranted. But other than fixing genuine programming bugs, how can customers expect new features and enhancements to an otherwise playable game without compensating the developer? There's a vocal subset of folks out there who demand more, and because they paid for a game once then they expect the developer to keep working for free. That won't happen.

All I'm saying is that in lieu of a game being unoffically retired, maybe at some point after a couple of years Matrix needs to consider reducing the sales price of a game and start charging a modest fee for patches/upgrades. Else, we (the customers) are left with games we want to keep playing if only they had this or that, but there's no good business model to support continued development. So we all jump on the next new game and the cycle starts all over again. Just an observation...

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 5
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/4/2013 6:57:38 PM   
wodin


Posts: 6503
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

I don't want old games remade I want "new" games created. I could care less for a TOAW XXX version. Like Hawkeye in MASH said "We want something New", "We want something New", "We want something New".

Except Steel Panthers...everyone wants a new Steel Panthers..

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My FB page, see I'm not that bad.

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Post #: 6
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/4/2013 7:04:05 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4468
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

I don't want old games remade I want "new" games created. I could care less for a TOAW XXX version. Like Hawkeye in MASH said "We want something New", "We want something New", "We want something New".

Except Steel Panthers...everyone wants a new Steel Panthers..


Currently I am organizing a strike, one in which, for the moment, warspite1 and I will STOP posting until we get a new Steel Panthers. I have been inundating Matrix with literally 2 emails every 2 years making this demand. Negotiations are not going well.

Want to join our strike??

_____________________________

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(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 7
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/4/2013 7:17:49 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 10760
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

I don't want old games remade I want "new" games created. I could care less for a TOAW XXX version. Like Hawkeye in MASH said "We want something New", "We want something New", "We want something New".

Except Steel Panthers...everyone wants a new Steel Panthers..


Currently I am organizing a strike, one in which, for the moment, warspite1 and I will STOP posting until we get a new Steel Panthers. I have been inundating Matrix with literally 2 emails every 2 years making this demand. Negotiations are not going well.

Want to join our strike??
warspite1

Well I'm not joining your strike - I've never even played Steel Panthers...whatever that is. Dumbass.

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Post #: 8
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/4/2013 7:19:38 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4468
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

I don't want old games remade I want "new" games created. I could care less for a TOAW XXX version. Like Hawkeye in MASH said "We want something New", "We want something New", "We want something New".

Except Steel Panthers...everyone wants a new Steel Panthers..


Currently I am organizing a strike, one in which, for the moment, warspite1 and I will STOP posting until we get a new Steel Panthers. I have been inundating Matrix with literally 2 emails every 2 years making this demand. Negotiations are not going well.

Want to join our strike??
warspite1

Well I'm not joining your strike - I've never even played Steel Panthers...whatever that is. Dumbass.


This whole act of uncivil disobedience was your idea. Are you throwing me under the bus of your ego?? That is mighty intolerant and I can't stand, no I hate, intolerance. Be gone!!!!!!!!

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 9
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/4/2013 9:23:21 PM   
sulla05

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		At the risk of stearing this back on track.

Age of Rifles, Battles of Napoleon and Steel Panthers all need to have new versions done.

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Post #: 10
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/5/2013 7:52:24 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

At the risk of stearing this back on track.

Age of Rifles, Battles of Napoleon and Steel Panthers all need to have new versions done.



OMG, Age of Rifles.

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Post #: 11
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/5/2013 11:48:49 AM   
Yogi the Great


Posts: 1017
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

Currently I am organizing a strike, one in which, for the moment, warspite1 and I will STOP posting until we get a new Steel Panthers. I have been inundating Matrix with literally 2 emails every 2 years making this demand. Negotiations are not going well.

Want to join our strike??


I think you should start the strike. Others can then inundate Matrix with emails asking them to not release the game.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 12
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/5/2013 12:04:09 PM   
Rtwfreak

 

Posts: 305
Joined: 12/11/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

I don't want old games remade I want "new" games created. I could care less for a TOAW XXX version. Like Hawkeye in MASH said "We want something New", "We want something New", "We want something New".

Except Steel Panthers...everyone wants a new Steel Panthers..


Currently I am organizing a strike, one in which, for the moment, warspite1 and I will STOP posting until we get a new Steel Panthers. I have been inundating Matrix with literally 2 emails every 2 years making this demand. Negotiations are not going well.

Want to join our strike??


No, you're doing it wrong they want you to stop posting so as to save space and make that many less threads they have to read and/or moderate. What you/we need to do is "post more". Flood every forum with 100's of threads per day demanding a Steel Panthers remake. That'll show em.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 13
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/5/2013 1:12:02 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2788
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: the pale blue dot
Status: offline 		Age of Rifles !.............

(in reply to Rtwfreak)
Post #: 14
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/6/2013 7:59:23 AM   
Alan Sharif

 

Posts: 356
Joined: 8/1/2001
From: UK.
Status: offline 		Another vote here for Age Of Rifles. Battles of Napoleon would be very welcome too.


_____________________________

A Sharif

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 15
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/6/2013 9:36:21 AM   
Iain McNeil


Posts: 1496
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: online 		There are games we sell where there is no ongoing development or planned patches, but I don't see an issue with this. The dev teams have moved on to new things or broken up and gone separate ways, but I don't see any reason why we would want to stop selling these games if they are in a playable state already. This ongoing revenue is one of the things that allows developers to make the next game and they just can't justify spending time on an old release which would not generate any additional revenue - that would be bad business and they'd soon be bust.

_____________________________

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Director
Slitherine Software
Website http://www.slitherine.com

(in reply to Alan Sharif)
Post #: 16
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/6/2013 2:28:50 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 1188
Joined: 3/18/2004
Status: offline 		Iain, thanks. I understand all that, but the issue is how to generate some additional revenue to provide some incentive for continued development. Or allow someone else to carry on, perhaps under legal conditions of some sort for either compensation or as a hobby effort.

The current business model doesn't support this for an old release. So players are left hanging, and in many cases it's not like a new and improved release is in the works to look forward to. It's a reality, I know, but all I'm saying is that maybe some other business options could be considered to help keep old releases alive and improving.

(in reply to Iain McNeil)
Post #: 17
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/6/2013 3:17:45 PM   
RockKahn

 

Posts: 61
Joined: 10/27/2011
From: USA
Status: offline 		I believe I've played more Age of Rifles and Microprose's (I believe) Red Storm Rising than any other games I've ever had. I eventually tired of RSR, but I only stopped playing AoR, because it wouldn't run properly when I upgraded my OS. I'd love to see those games upgraded.



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Post #: 18
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/6/2013 3:19:59 PM   
Rtwfreak

 

Posts: 305
Joined: 12/11/2011
Status: offline
quote:

but I only stopped playing AoR, because it wouldn't run properly when I upgraded my OS.


Look around for the DOS version and then you can still play it on any OS. Dosbox or D-fend Reloaded will run it on anything.

(in reply to RockKahn)
Post #: 19
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/6/2013 6:24:52 PM   
RockKahn

 

Posts: 61
Joined: 10/27/2011
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

quote:

but I only stopped playing AoR, because it wouldn't run properly when I upgraded my OS.


Look around for the DOS version and then you can still play it on any OS. Dosbox or D-fend Reloaded will run it on anything.


Hey thanks Rtwfreak. You may have just opened up a whole new world for me. Well, a whole "old" world, I guess.

I dug through some boxes and found I still had it, and it is the DOS version on CD. I'm going to try it. I have some other DOS games I might want to try, too, like Lords of the Realm II. I played the heck out of that, too.

BTW, while digging, I found an SSI CD that I forgot I had. It's called The Definitive Wargame Collection and has a bunch of DOS games on it. I haven't played these games that much, but I'm going to take a look at them.

It has Battlefront:Panzer Battles, Battles of Napoleon, Conquest of Japan, D-DAY: The Beginning of the End, Decisive Battles of the Civil War, Global Domination, Gold of the Americas, Reach for the Stars, Sword of Aragon, Wargame Construction Set II: Tanks!, Warlords, and When Two Worlds War.

Does anybody ever remember ever playing any of these games? I'm sure the graphics and UI will be disappointing, but could be fun anyway. Maybe not.

I hope this DOS virtual drive thing works, and these CDs are OK.

_____________________________

I don't write Universal Law. I just live by it.

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Post #: 20
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/6/2013 6:43:18 PM   
catwhoorg


Posts: 253
Joined: 9/27/2012
From: Uk expat lving near Atlanta
Status: online 		Played Warlords quite a bit.

Warlords II was much much better.

(in reply to RockKahn)
Post #: 21
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/6/2013 6:48:54 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4468
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Played Warlords quite a bit.

Warlords II was much much better.


Haven't touched that in forever. I did just purchase and enjoy the entire Baldur's gate series from COG.com. FUN FUN.

_____________________________

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Post #: 22
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/6/2013 7:59:57 PM   
berto


Posts: 1339
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Warlords II was much much better.

Aside from Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic (they just announced AoW III, incidentally; check out: http://www.ageofwonders.com/aow3live/), Warlords III was one of the few fantasy games (HoMM was another) I've tried.

And loved. I played the heck out of Warlords III. But as a war game. I basically ignored the game's fantasy aspects. I'm a war gamer at heart. The truth will out. LOL.

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Post #: 23
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/6/2013 8:07:51 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4468
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: berto


quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Warlords II was much much better.

Aside from Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic (they just announced AoW III, incidentally; check out: http://www.ageofwonders.com/aow3live/), Warlords III was one of the few fantasy games (HoMM was another) I've tried.

And loved. I played the heck out of Warlords III. But as a war game. I basically ignored the game's fantasy aspects. I'm a war gamer at heart. The truth will out. LOL.


Oh, I meant to say I love Age of Wonders. Still play it every now and then. My sons and I are discussing getting the old gang together this summer for a week and playing D&D, Warhammer and some great board war-game. Oh what fun we will have. No sleep for seven days.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

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Post #: 24
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/7/2013 10:35:07 PM   
Rick

 

Posts: 11600
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RockKahn

......
It has Battlefront:Panzer Battles, Battles of Napoleon, Conquest of Japan, D-DAY: The Beginning of the End, Decisive Battles of the Civil War, Global Domination, Gold of the Americas, Reach for the Stars, Sword of Aragon, Wargame Construction Set II: Tanks!, Warlords, and When Two Worlds War.

....


I remember several of these. i used to have several of these for the C-64 many many years ago.

One that I would really like to see revisted is Battles of Napoleon. At one point there was a effort to work on new BoN. I wish it had continued.

rick

(in reply to RockKahn)
Post #: 25
RE: Status of Old Games - 2/25/2013 3:40:25 AM   
gazfun


Posts: 802
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Brisbane, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Erik Rutins recently posted this:

quote:

Hi guys,

In response to the many requests late last year, I just wanted to let you know that we are very interested in continuing to develop and improve TOAW, including the possibility of a TOAW IV in the future. We've been in contact with Ralph, who we would really like to be the developer going forward as he has been in the past. Ralph is going through some tough times and I think it will be some time before he is ready to start a new project or invest significant development time. Our preference is to give Ralph some time and hope that he will be available in the medium-term, but I know a lot of you are impatient for faster progress. Unfortunately I don't have better news right now than to say that whatever may come, it is not our intention to "retire" TOAW, it's our goal to continue and improve it.

We appreciate very much the work of all members of the TOAD team and the community in helping us improve TOAW to date and we're also interested in your feedback on where we should go with TOAW in the future.

Regards,

- Erik


Which is great. But it would be nice to get some official updates from Matrix on other games that are not on the "Discontinued Games" list; i.e., still sold and supported. Lots of games seem to hit a plateau and die in place, when perhaps a little more TLC would help a lot. For Liberty!, Commander Napoleon at War, and Empires in Arms come to mind, among others.

This begs a question, and I know it's a sensitive subject regarding developer's priorites and propriety rights and such, but can't Matrix/Slitherine do a little bit more to encourage its developers to continue game improvements or, at some point, promote 3rd-party developers to help keep old games alive? A good example is the Grand Strategy mod for Commander Europe at War. If the original developer cannot or will not continue to improve a game, then let someone else work on it.

We at TGHQ have a lot of players who love this game, we still are getting increasing membership to Play EiA "Empire in Arms" which probably one patch away from fixing this, so then there will be no bugs to speak of.
But the other issue is that this should be updated so that the use of new Tablets and Smart phones can play this, because the game is quiet popular, once people get the idea, they stick around with this game.

< Message edited by gazfun -- 2/25/2013 9:56:15 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Status of Old Games - 3/7/2013 6:13:07 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 1188
Joined: 3/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

On the issue of why are we not using PC performance to make bigger/detailed games - The PC has far more processing power than AI would actually need if programmed well. The performance really only comes in to play The issue is that creating a good AI is something that is specific to a game and its set of rules and a huge huge task that gets exponentially more complex as the game gets more complex so doing it for the complex games takes a lot of time and money. The AI has to be scripted to some extent in complex games as its impossible to really evaluate the rules and game situation. Even chess AI can beaten by a human and that game is extremely simple in terms of rules and scope. You cannot reuse the good AI from one game to the next so you start from scratch on the next game as it has different rules. There are sometimes elements you can reuse but it doesn't save much time. The other issue is the AI has to evolve as the game evolves. Lets say for example you add a small feature near the end of development - this could completely break the AI unless it properly accounts for it. Lets say you re-balance some stats - again this could break the AI.


This was a good point made in the other thread. Creating a good AI is a huge task and requires lots of time to maintain, improve and enhance. Along with adding numerous other small features to a game after release, the question remains how to encourage developers or 3rd-parties to continue development of older games that still have life left in them. Perhaps there is no good answer except for the developer genuinely wanting to continue development as a hobby effort, which isn't common.

(in reply to gazfun)
Post #: 27
RE: Status of Old Games - 3/7/2013 6:45:22 PM   
Matti Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

This begs a question, and I know it's a sensitive subject regarding developer's priorites and propriety rights and such, but can't Matrix/Slitherine do a little bit more to encourage its developers to continue game improvements or, at some point, promote 3rd-party developers to help keep old games alive? A good example is the Grand Strategy mod for Commander Europe at War. If the original developer cannot or will not continue to improve a game, then let someone else work on it.

Other examples:
SPWAW
WinSPMBT
WinSPWW2
Jagged Alliance 2 v1.13


_____________________________

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MekWars

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Post #: 28
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