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RE: Richard III

 
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RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 11:03:16 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Even the Conquerer's children were a blend. But for sure, Henry II was the son of Geoffrey of Anjou, and Henry's wife was from Aquitaine. So Richard I was, at best, 1/4 Norman - the rest mostly French. John's wife was from Angouleme & his son's wife was from Provence. Then Edward I & Edward II had French wives. You have to go to Edward III to find a non-French wife. Then Henry V & Henry VI were back to French again. The Plantagenets were pretty much French.
warspite1

But not French in the sense we know today.


French in the medieval sense. Different from today in a political sense, but not that much in a nationality sense.

quote:

Could you argue that the 100-years war was in fact a French civil war?


I'm not sure about it at that point. Certainly not a civil war – that’s not a medieval concept. But not a modern nationalistic war either. I think the 100-years war probably can only be understood within the context of feudalism. In that sense it was a feudal contest between the Plantagenets and the Capetians/Bourbons. If so, then the English longbowmen at Crecy and Agincourt were upholding a fealty obligation, not advancing some English national agenda. But it does depend on just how Anglicized the Plantagenets had become by then.

Now, if you go back to Henry II's time, Phillip II regarded - and even addressed him - as his vassal. And the conflict between Henry and Phillip was entirely feudal and had nothing to do with nationalism. At that time it was clear that a French Duke was lording it over the English - sort of like England was just a large fiefdom of Henry's. So the French would have had no objections to that.

But, by the time of the 100-years war, the Plantagenets may have been Anglicized enough that it started to look like an English King was lording it over a big chunk of France - reversing the situation. That might even have been the root cause of the war. Again, I just don't know when or even if such a transition took place. I expect there were some inklings of nationalism seeping into the contest via Joan of Arc, but not in any modern sense.

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Post #: 121
RE: Richard III - 2/10/2013 12:09:09 AM   
sulla05

 

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Henry II was the French kings vassal for the lands he owned in " France " at the time.

The English crown and lands were a different matter.

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Post #: 122
RE: Richard III - 2/10/2013 12:03:50 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

yes..Saxo Gothbergs
warspite1

Also known as Saxe-Coburg Gotha. Queen Victoria's husband Prince Albert came from that House, although Victoria herself was of German descent - her father was the son of King George III (of Hanoverian descent, and whose Grandfather - George II - was the last English King born outside the UK) and her mother was also German of the Saxe-Coburg Saalfeld House.

Still with it? Good cos I'm thoroughly confused


Thanks mate...my memory is rusty..couldn't quite remember the name they used to be.

From Wiki..

The House of Windsor is the royal house of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms. It was founded by King George V by royal proclamation on 17 July 1917, when he changed the name of his family from the German Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (a branch of the House of Wettin) to the English Windsor, due to the anti-German sentiment in the British Empire during World War I. Currently, the most prominent member of the House of Windsor is its head, Queen Elizabeth II, the reigning monarch of each of the Commonwealth realms. The House of Windsor, as the British Royal Family, has the legal and constitutional prerogatives and practices associated with that status.

< Message edited by wodin -- 2/10/2013 12:05:25 PM >


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RE: Richard III - 2/10/2013 2:45:33 PM   
Treale


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I would imagine by now (940 plus years) that their is not any distinction between Saxon and Norman?

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Post #: 124
RE: Richard III - 2/10/2013 4:05:58 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

The House of Windsor is the royal house of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms. It was founded by King George V by royal proclamation on 17 July 1917, when he changed the name of his family from the German Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (a branch of the House of Wettin) to the English Windsor, due to the anti-German sentiment in the British Empire during World War I. Currently, the most prominent member of the House of Windsor is its head, Queen Elizabeth II, the reigning monarch of each of the Commonwealth realms. The House of Windsor, as the British Royal Family, has the legal and constitutional prerogatives and practices associated with that status.


The ancestry of the modern crown is rather irrelevant, since they don't exercise any real power. It's not like Britain is being lorded over by Germans. The crown has been reduced to no more than a figurehead. And even back when William and Mary replaced the Stuarts the change was only at the top. The rest of the peerage kept their titles and lands, etc. And by then, there was Parliament.

In contrast, when the Conqueror won, he replaced all the feudal lords with his own men. And the Normans and Plantagenets exercised absolute power. The Anglo-Saxons were removed from all power and lorded over. England was obviously being ruled by foreigners.

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Post #: 125
RE: Richard III - 2/10/2013 5:00:21 PM   
ckammp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

The House of Windsor is the royal house of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms. It was founded by King George V by royal proclamation on 17 July 1917, when he changed the name of his family from the German Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (a branch of the House of Wettin) to the English Windsor, due to the anti-German sentiment in the British Empire during World War I. Currently, the most prominent member of the House of Windsor is its head, Queen Elizabeth II, the reigning monarch of each of the Commonwealth realms. The House of Windsor, as the British Royal Family, has the legal and constitutional prerogatives and practices associated with that status.


The ancestry of the modern crown is rather irrelevant, since they don't exercise any real power. It's not like Britain is being lorded over by Germans. The crown has been reduced to no more than a figurehead. And even back when William and Mary replaced the Stuarts the change was only at the top. The rest of the peerage kept their titles and lands, etc. And by then, there was Parliament.

In contrast, when the Conqueror won, he replaced all the feudal lords with his own men. And the Normans and Plantagenets exercised absolute power. The Anglo-Saxons were removed from all power and lorded over. England was obviously being ruled by foreigners.



William III & Mary II were members of the Stuart dynasty.
They replaced Mary's father James II, as Parliament and the majority of the English people wanted a monarch who was Protestant rather than Catholic.

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Post #: 126
RE: Richard III - 2/10/2013 6:31:33 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

The House of Windsor is the royal house of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms. It was founded by King George V by royal proclamation on 17 July 1917, when he changed the name of his family from the German Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (a branch of the House of Wettin) to the English Windsor, due to the anti-German sentiment in the British Empire during World War I. Currently, the most prominent member of the House of Windsor is its head, Queen Elizabeth II, the reigning monarch of each of the Commonwealth realms. The House of Windsor, as the British Royal Family, has the legal and constitutional prerogatives and practices associated with that status.


The ancestry of the modern crown is rather irrelevant, since they don't exercise any real power. It's not like Britain is being lorded over by Germans. The crown has been reduced to no more than a figurehead. And even back when William and Mary replaced the Stuarts the change was only at the top. The rest of the peerage kept their titles and lands, etc. And by then, there was Parliament.

In contrast, when the Conqueror won, he replaced all the feudal lords with his own men. And the Normans and Plantagenets exercised absolute power. The Anglo-Saxons were removed from all power and lorded over. England was obviously being ruled by foreigners.


Not absolute power - there was Magna Carta in 1215.

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Post #: 127
RE: Richard III - 2/10/2013 8:23:16 PM   
Hurrying Heinz

 

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thanks for the education gents , great stuff.

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Post #: 128
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