Matrix Games Forums

Battle Academy Mega Pack releases on SteamDeal of the Week Da Vinci's Art of WarCivil War II Patch 1.4 public BetaHappy Easter!Battle Academy is now available on SteamPlayers compare Ageods Civil War to Civil War IIDeal of the week - An updated War in the East goes half Price!Sign up for the Qvadriga beta for iPad and Android!Come and say hi at Pax and SaluteLegends of War goes on sale!
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Richard III

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: Richard III Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Richard III - 2/8/2013 10:28:36 PM   
catwhoorg


Posts: 619
Joined: 9/27/2012
From: Uk expat lving near Atlanta
Status: offline
Much like the Romans, it is almost impossible to imagine what the modern nation would be like without that conquest.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 91
RE: Richard III - 2/8/2013 11:16:44 PM   
Orm


Posts: 5471
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

So was England better or worse for the Norman Conquest?
warspite1

Difficult to answer of course because although we know how things turned out under the Normans, there is no way of knowing how would they have gone under continued Anglo-Saxon rule? My gut feel is that the Norman Conquest was a positive in terms of this country's development.

Right now I feel the opposite. But I can be convinced to change my thoughts about this.

_____________________________

"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment."

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 92
RE: Richard III - 2/8/2013 11:33:31 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 16034
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

So was England better or worse for the Norman Conquest?
warspite1

Difficult to answer of course because although we know how things turned out under the Normans, there is no way of knowing how would they have gone under continued Anglo-Saxon rule? My gut feel is that the Norman Conquest was a positive in terms of this country's development.

Right now I feel the opposite. But I can be convinced to change my thoughts about this.
warspite1

There was a brilliant BBC series a few years back called The Normans. I have it on order - should arrive next week - and I will post some of the points raised in the program.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 93
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 12:40:37 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 6727
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I remember reading that Edward I was the first Plantagenet who could speak English. Still a second language for him, though. When, or even if, any Plantagenet ever thought of himself as English I don't know. I'd also be curious as to when (or if) any such transition took place. Shakespeare treats the later ones as if they were English, though, and he wasn't too far removed from their times. So, I'm guessing that probably by the time of Henry IV, at least, they thought of themselves as English.

Certainly the earlier ones, such as Henry II & Richard I (Lion Hearted) regarded themselves as either Norman or French, with England a conquered province they were lording it over. That seems to make the Magna Carta sort of a French/Norman document, regulating French/Norman lords & kings, by the way.
warspite1

Well certainly not French - the Normans (largely descended from Vikings - Norsemen) did not really consider themselves French at all. Welcome to the hotch potch of European history.


Even the Conquerer's children were a blend. But for sure, Henry II was the son of Geoffrey of Anjou, and Henry's wife was from Aquitaine. So Richard I was, at best, 1/4 Norman - the rest mostly French. John's wife was from Angouleme & his son's wife was from Provence. Then Edward I & Edward II had French wives. You have to go to Edward III to find a non-French wife. Then Henry V & Henry VI were back to French again. The Plantagenets were pretty much French.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 94
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 6:48:23 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 16034
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I remember reading that Edward I was the first Plantagenet who could speak English. Still a second language for him, though. When, or even if, any Plantagenet ever thought of himself as English I don't know. I'd also be curious as to when (or if) any such transition took place. Shakespeare treats the later ones as if they were English, though, and he wasn't too far removed from their times. So, I'm guessing that probably by the time of Henry IV, at least, they thought of themselves as English.

Certainly the earlier ones, such as Henry II & Richard I (Lion Hearted) regarded themselves as either Norman or French, with England a conquered province they were lording it over. That seems to make the Magna Carta sort of a French/Norman document, regulating French/Norman lords & kings, by the way.
warspite1

Well certainly not French - the Normans (largely descended from Vikings - Norsemen) did not really consider themselves French at all. Welcome to the hotch potch of European history.


Even the Conquerer's children were a blend. But for sure, Henry II was the son of Geoffrey of Anjou, and Henry's wife was from Aquitaine. So Richard I was, at best, 1/4 Norman - the rest mostly French. John's wife was from Angouleme & his son's wife was from Provence. Then Edward I & Edward II had French wives. You have to go to Edward III to find a non-French wife. Then Henry V & Henry VI were back to French again. The Plantagenets were pretty much French.
warspite1

But not French in the sense we know today. Could you argue that the 100-years war was in fact a French civil war?



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 95
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 6:52:20 AM   
rogo727


Posts: 1340
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: online
I often kid my wife and say my ancestors only burnt and pillaged..(mine are mostly all German ). While hers raped burnt and pillaged ( she is mostly Swedish and Norway heritage )
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

Wasn't the last English King Harold? And how many years until a King stopped speaking French and started speaking English. Did Richard III speak English? Just curious


I remember reading that Edward I was the first Plantagenet who could speak English. Still a second language for him, though. When, or even if, any Plantagenet ever thought of himself as English I don't know. I'd also be curious as to when (or if) any such transition took place. Shakespeare treats the later ones as if they were English, though, and he wasn't too far removed from their times. So, I'm guessing that probably by the time of Henry IV, at least, they thought of themselves as English.

Certainly the earlier ones, such as Henry II & Richard I (Lion Hearted) regarded themselves as either Norman or French, with England a conquered province they were lording it over. That seems to make the Magna Carta sort of a French/Norman document, regulating French/Norman lords & kings, by the way.
warspite1

Well certainly not French - the Normans (largely descended from Vikings - Norsemen) did not really consider themselves French at all. Welcome to the hotch potch of European history.



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 96
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 8:16:39 AM   
Orm


Posts: 5471
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

I often kid my wife and say my ancestors only burnt and pillaged..(mine are mostly all German ). While hers raped burnt and pillaged ( she is mostly Swedish and Norway heritage )
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

Wasn't the last English King Harold? And how many years until a King stopped speaking French and started speaking English. Did Richard III speak English? Just curious


I remember reading that Edward I was the first Plantagenet who could speak English. Still a second language for him, though. When, or even if, any Plantagenet ever thought of himself as English I don't know. I'd also be curious as to when (or if) any such transition took place. Shakespeare treats the later ones as if they were English, though, and he wasn't too far removed from their times. So, I'm guessing that probably by the time of Henry IV, at least, they thought of themselves as English.

Certainly the earlier ones, such as Henry II & Richard I (Lion Hearted) regarded themselves as either Norman or French, with England a conquered province they were lording it over. That seems to make the Magna Carta sort of a French/Norman document, regulating French/Norman lords & kings, by the way.
warspite1

Well certainly not French - the Normans (largely descended from Vikings - Norsemen) did not really consider themselves French at all. Welcome to the hotch potch of European history.



Vikings have has an unfairly bad reputation. The main reason for this is that they plundered monasteries and churches. Killed priests and monks. And it was those who wrote the history about the Vikings.

And the Germans has during the history been mostly raped, killed and had their homes burnt. But this is mostly forgotten since the events during the twentieth century takes precedence.

_____________________________

"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment."

(in reply to rogo727)
Post #: 97
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 10:24:24 AM   
Empire101


Posts: 1956
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

So was England better or worse for the Norman Conquest?
warspite1

Difficult to answer of course because although we know how things turned out under the Normans, there is no way of knowing how would they have gone under continued Anglo-Saxon rule? My gut feel is that the Norman Conquest was a positive in terms of this country's development.

Right now I feel the opposite. But I can be convinced to change my thoughts about this.
warspite1

There was a brilliant BBC series a few years back called The Normans. I have it on order - should arrive next week - and I will post some of the points raised in the program.


It is an EXCELLENT series Mr.W. You will really enjoy it!!

I've got to get all the crap for CB, its taking several books/ages

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
- Michael Burleigh


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 98
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 10:24:55 AM   
Empire101


Posts: 1956
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Much like the Romans, it is almost impossible to imagine what the modern nation would be like without that conquest.


+1


_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
- Michael Burleigh


(in reply to catwhoorg)
Post #: 99
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 10:29:46 AM   
Empire101


Posts: 1956
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Richard liked the boys..


WARNING: LIVE WODIN HAND GRENADE DETECTED. APPROACH WITH CAUTION.


_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
- Michael Burleigh


(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 100
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 11:29:42 AM   
stockwellpete

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 12/20/2012
Status: offline
The War of the Roses would make an excellent subject for a two-player WEGO computer wargame. I know there is a new game called exactly this but it is an action-type game rather than a political strategy-type game. I have played Field of Glory PC a lot oer the last two years and I have designed custom scenarios for all the main battles plus I linked them all up with a very basic text campaign system (in hard copy, not a computer programme). And the results of the campaigns that have been played have come out fairly evenly between Yorkists and Lancastrians - basically victory points are awarded for winning battles and killing leaders of the other faction. So I think a well-researched wargame for the PC would be a very interesting project indeed.

(in reply to Empire101)
Post #: 101
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 11:52:00 AM   
Empire101


Posts: 1956
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

The War of the Roses would make an excellent subject for a two-player WEGO computer wargame. I know there is a new game called exactly this but it is an action-type game rather than a political strategy-type game. I have played Field of Glory PC a lot oer the last two years and I have designed custom scenarios for all the main battles plus I linked them all up with a very basic text campaign system (in hard copy, not a computer programme). And the results of the campaigns that have been played have come out fairly evenly between Yorkists and Lancastrians - basically victory points are awarded for winning battles and killing leaders of the other faction. So I think a well-researched wargame for the PC would be a very interesting project indeed.


I would buy it!!

Kingmaker writ large.....one day....one glorious day...


_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
- Michael Burleigh


(in reply to stockwellpete)
Post #: 102
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 1:11:47 PM   
redcoat


Posts: 644
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

The War of the Roses would make an excellent subject for a two-player WEGO computer wargame. I know there is a new game called exactly this but it is an action-type game rather than a political strategy-type game. I have played Field of Glory PC a lot oer the last two years and I have designed custom scenarios for all the main battles plus I linked them all up with a very basic text campaign system (in hard copy, not a computer programme). And the results of the campaigns that have been played have come out fairly evenly between Yorkists and Lancastrians - basically victory points are awarded for winning battles and killing leaders of the other faction. So I think a well-researched wargame for the PC would be a very interesting project indeed.


I have played many of your Wars of the Roses scenarios. Very good. Thanks for making them.

(in reply to stockwellpete)
Post #: 103
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 5:30:40 PM   
Treale


Posts: 1236
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I remember reading that Edward I was the first Plantagenet who could speak English. Still a second language for him, though. When, or even if, any Plantagenet ever thought of himself as English I don't know. I'd also be curious as to when (or if) any such transition took place. Shakespeare treats the later ones as if they were English, though, and he wasn't too far removed from their times. So, I'm guessing that probably by the time of Henry IV, at least, they thought of themselves as English.

Certainly the earlier ones, such as Henry II & Richard I (Lion Hearted) regarded themselves as either Norman or French, with England a conquered province they were lording it over. That seems to make the Magna Carta sort of a French/Norman document, regulating French/Norman lords & kings, by the way.
warspite1

Well certainly not French - the Normans (largely descended from Vikings - Norsemen) did not really consider themselves French at all. Welcome to the hotch potch of European history.


Even the Conquerer's children were a blend. But for sure, Henry II was the son of Geoffrey of Anjou, and Henry's wife was from Aquitaine. So Richard I was, at best, 1/4 Norman - the rest mostly French. John's wife was from Angouleme & his son's wife was from Provence. Then Edward I & Edward II had French wives. You have to go to Edward III to find a non-French wife. Then Henry V & Henry VI were back to French again. The Plantagenets were pretty much French.
warspite1

But not French in the sense we know today. Could you argue that the 100-years war was in fact a French civil war?




Isn't the present day Royal Family of German Ancestry?

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 104
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 5:39:28 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1956
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
Correct.

Thats why I posted Richard was the very last 'true' English King.

As to them speaking french; french was the the language of the court as custom dictated, but he spoke english when 'off duty'

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
- Michael Burleigh


(in reply to Treale)
Post #: 105
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 5:40:38 PM   
wodin


Posts: 7705
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
yes..Saxo Gothbergs

_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to Treale)
Post #: 106
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 6:12:57 PM   
redcoat


Posts: 644
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

Isn't the present day Royal Family of German Ancestry?


Most English people have some Germanic ancestry. The Anglo-Saxons originally came from NW Europe.

(in reply to Treale)
Post #: 107
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 6:27:05 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 16034
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

yes..Saxo Gothbergs
warspite1

Also known as Saxe-Coburg Gotha. Queen Victoria's husband Prince Albert came from that House, although Victoria herself was of German descent - her father was the son of King George III (of Hanoverian descent, and whose Grandfather - George II - was the last English King born outside the UK) and her mother was also German of the Saxe-Coburg Saalfeld House.

Still with it? Good cos I'm thoroughly confused

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 108
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 7:02:47 PM   
rogo727


Posts: 1340
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: online
Some people wanted George Washington to be the first king of America... If in fact that happened he would have been of English decent.
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

yes..Saxo Gothbergs
warspite1

Also known as Saxe-Coburg Gotha. Queen Victoria's husband Prince Albert came from that House, although Victoria herself was of German descent - her father was the son of King George III (of Hanoverian descent, and whose Grandfather - George II - was the last English King born outside the UK) and her mother was also German of the Saxe-Coburg Saalfeld House.

Still with it? Good cos I'm thoroughly confused



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 109
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 7:31:46 PM   
Treale


Posts: 1236
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: online
I remember reading a book on the "Conquest". I think that it stated that 40% of the Anglo Saxons were killed? That's quite a bit. But I think that William was pretty ruthless in his conquests. And wasn't a lot of land given to his cronies that came over with him?

I'm fascinated with English / British History and I don't have any English or French blood in me!!!

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to rogo727)
Post #: 110
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 8:04:10 PM   
ckammp

 

Posts: 756
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Empire101

Correct.

Thats why I posted Richard was the very last 'true' English King.

As to them speaking french; french was the the language of the court as custom dictated, but he spoke english when 'off duty'



The Tudor dynasty that followed the York dynasty was the most "English" dynasty to rule England from 1066 to the present day. Thus claim to be the last 'true' English King should actually go to Elizabeth I.

As to the German ancestry; it is of course true the present House of Windsor has a strong strain of German, but that is rapidly diminishing.
Elizabeth II's father, George VI, was the first English King to marry an English woman since Henry VIII (not counting the unique situation of William & Mary), and both Prince Charles and Prince William married English woman.

(in reply to Empire101)
Post #: 111
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 8:27:06 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 16034
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

As to the German ancestry; it is of course true the present House of Windsor has a strong strain of German, but that is rapidly diminishing.


Its a point similar to that I made when we had the Queen's Jubilee thread in the summer. Some people like to sneer that the Royal Family is "German" - like its a bad thing.

Compare how far back the German influence goes (as per ckammp's comment above) and then look at that against how we treat immigrants in this country. In response to neanderthals telling immigrants to go back home - the answer is often, I am home I was born here. Well so was QEII, and her dad and her mum and her Grandad etc

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to ckammp)
Post #: 112
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 8:48:17 PM   
Treale


Posts: 1236
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: online
I think that a fitting testament to the English is that the last words in the book that I read were: After a period of time, the conquerors became English. The English didn't become Norman!

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 113
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 9:22:47 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3567
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
Henry Tudor was Welsh.

Alfred

(in reply to Treale)
Post #: 114
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 10:22:27 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 564
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
Henry Tudor's father's father was Welsh. His father's mother was French (the widow of Henry V).
His mother was descended from Edward III.

The saying that the Tudors were 'the most English dynasty since...' is based on the other Tudors, IMHO.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 115
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 10:23:24 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 16034
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Henry Tudor's father's father was Welsh. His father's mother was French (the widow of Henry V).
His mother was descended from Edward III.

The saying that the Tudors were 'the most English dynasty since...' is based on the other Tudors, IMHO.
warspite1

...that and the fact he was born in Wales

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 116
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 10:26:02 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 564
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
Didn't Queen Elizabeth II change the name of the current royal family to Windsor-Mountbatten, in honor of her husband?

(in reply to Treale)
Post #: 117
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 10:37:27 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 16034
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Didn't Queen Elizabeth II change the name of the current royal family to Windsor-Mountbatten, in honor of her husband?
warspite1

Not sure of the legal schmegals - but its something to do with the Battenburgs (more Germans!!) who became Mountbatten in WWI(?) - and Prince Philip is a decendent of the Battenburg line.

Our First Sea Lord in 1914, Prince Louis of Battenburg, was hounded out of office for being too German in the eyes of some morons. Not sure when the change of name took place.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 118
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 10:40:35 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 564
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
George V changed it to Windsor (from Saxe-Coburg) during WWI.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 119
RE: Richard III - 2/9/2013 10:45:49 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 16034
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

George V changed it to Windsor (from Saxe-Coburg) during WWI.
warspite1

Zorch the question must reference the addition of Mountbatten, not the change to Windsor, as that was not a change made by the Queen.

Edit: Hold on, I 've just realised you asked the question.... What the .....???

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/9/2013 10:54:46 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 120
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: Richard III Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.137