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RE: Lincoln - The Movie

 
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RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 2:22:20 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 2669
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: online


'American artist George Caleb Bingham, who was staunchly pro-Union, called Order No. 11 an "act of imbecility" and wrote letters protesting it. Bingham wrote to Gen. Ewing, "If you execute this order, I shall make you infamous with pen and brush,"

It is well-known that men were shot down in the very act of obeying the order, and their wagons and effects seized by their murderers. Large trains of wagons, extending over the prairies for miles in length, and moving Kansasward, were freighted with every description of household furniture and wearing apparel belonging to the exiled inhabitants. Dense columns of smoke arising in every direction marked the conflagrations of dwellings, many of the evidences of which are yet to be seen in the remains of seared and blackened chimneys, standing as melancholy monuments of a ruthless military despotism which spared neither age, sex, character, nor condition. There was neither aid nor protection afforded to the banished inhabitants by the heartless authority which expelled them from their rightful possessions. They crowded by hundreds upon the banks of the Missouri River, and were indebted to the charity of benevolent steamboat conductors for transportation to places of safety where friendly aid could be extended to them without danger to those who ventured to contribute it.'

You defend this?

_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 31
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 2:25:12 AM   
barkorn45

 

Posts: 303
Joined: 1/17/2010
Status: offline
Come now was'nt it Adams who said"Facts can be dangerous things"whats dangerous is the revisionist history people practice today.
Missouri never attacked the union,none of the seceded countries attacked union states they defended their borders as any free country is allowed to do.
But the victor writes the history!
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

The only thing illegal here in Missouri was the federals. Missouri's order of secession was because of the illegal actions of the federal troops concerning the Camp Jackson Affair and others. So much for neutrality. The feral federal scums brutality didn't end there. The General Order No. 11 was an order of a tyrant and madman. Many many more examples. Imposing their own legislature. Provisional gov.etc

My home town was burned to the ground by their illegal invasion. Land stolen. Murder committed.

But he was your tyrant though so it was o.k.? Sounds all too familiar today.

An act declaring the political ties heretofore existing between the State of Missouri and the United States of America dissolved.

Whereas the Government of the United States, in the possession and under the control of a sectional party, has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri, by invading with hostile armies the soil of the State, attacking and making prisoners the militia while legally assembled under the State laws, forcibly occupying the State capitol, and attempting through the instrumentality of domestic traitors to usurp the State government, seizing and destroying private property, and murdering with fiendish malignity peaceable citizens, men, women, and children, together with other acts of atrocity, indicating a deep-settled hostility toward the people of Missouri and their institutions;


quote:

And the United States was attempting to find a peaceful solution


You don't actually believe that do you?




(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 32
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 2:35:06 AM   
rogo727


Posts: 1418
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline
Northern Missouri was treated far better then the rest. Many northern Missouri towns were pro union.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

The only thing illegal here in Missouri was the federals. Missouri's order of secession was because of the illegal actions of the federal troops concerning the Camp Jackson Affair and others. So much for neutrality. The feral federal scums brutality didn't end there. The General Order No. 11 was an order of a tyrant and madman. Many many more examples. Imposing their own legislature. Provisional gov.etc

My home town was burned to the ground by their illegal invasion. Land stolen. Murder committed.

But he was your tyrant though so it was o.k.? Sounds all too familiar today.

An act declaring the political ties heretofore existing between the State of Missouri and the United States of America dissolved.

Whereas the Government of the United States, in the possession and under the control of a sectional party, has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri, by invading with hostile armies the soil of the State, attacking and making prisoners the militia while legally assembled under the State laws, forcibly occupying the State capitol, and attempting through the instrumentality of domestic traitors to usurp the State government, seizing and destroying private property, and murdering with fiendish malignity peaceable citizens, men, women, and children, together with other acts of atrocity, indicating a deep-settled hostility toward the people of Missouri and their institutions;


quote:

And the United States was attempting to find a peaceful solution


You don't actually believe that do you?





_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 33
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 2:47:48 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 2669
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: online
quote:

Many northern Missouri towns were pro union.


While this is true, as was there many pro union areas in east Tenn. and other areas, the only duly elected Governor of Missouri was ABSOLUTELY against raising troops to be used against its own citizens. Her neutrality was violated.

< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 2/6/2013 2:48:14 AM >


_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to rogo727)
Post #: 34
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 2:26:15 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4847
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Mr. P
Fear not! You're not the only American who is fed up. Many like myself are no longer republican or democrat but independent. While I don't ever think that we will have another civil war I think that change will be coming.
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

Why would you say secession is not a viable option or even allowed?
Just because lincoln used military power to force the seceded states back into the union does'nt
mean they did'nt have the right of secession.
Find me documented proof that the founders disallowed secession.
They had seceded from the british empire after all
I'll repeat the answer that Patrick Henry gave to the governor of virginia
when asked by him at the ratification of the constitution
if his state could leave the union if they found it not to their liking.
"Yes but be warned some future president may invade your country and burn your homes"
You don't think Texas could exist as an independent country?
Also technically the south did'nt rebel against the union,they did'nt try to overthrow
the government they peacefully chose to leave it.




I know. Don't confuse certain people with the facts. I am actually in the mood to have my house leave the Union and become a House State. I am furious at the level of taxation, assaults on our constitutional rights, the imposing of ideologies on our school children-the list of grievances against our Federal monster government is to long to list here...I meant to say "Lincoln, and the Republicans, did not think secession legal"!

I know I have been all over the map on the issue. The reality is I don't want this country to fall apart(and am glad it did not in the 1860's), but I think we are in the process of that happening. When you have huge numbers of sheriffs making public statements saying they will not only NOT enforce federal gun control laws, but will actually defend the citizens of their counties from federal agents, things are looking grim. And yes, sheriffs are, usually, the ultimate law enforcer's in our country. They take an oath to defend the Constitution, a Constitution which says we have the right to bear arms...it does not say "bear arms that the government says you can bear". I am through being civil on this issue.




It is sad and somewhat frightening that our country has reached this point. For most of my life I revered the South, in purely romantic terms of General Lee and his hosts of loyalists. But I really never thought secession was right. I have changed my mind. And don't anyone dare say it is because of the election of a black president(PLUS, MY WIFE IS BLACK). I began feeling this way while George Bush was president(and NO I do not think he was evil). He just caved to many times to the progressives. Funny how progressives always, always expect the Republicans to conceded, but they themselves never do.

One reason I continue to engage people who want to tinker with the 2nd Amendment(or any Amendment) is that I hope to change their minds. Since 1988 I have changed my stance on several issues, and I feel that if it can happen to me then commons sense should help others contemplate, and change their positions. I have a friend who was forever whining about Republicans and Conservatives, but because he is a gun owner he suddenly is flummoxed by the proposals of the President. My buddy is now screaming about no one taking his guns. I am happy that Harry Reid(DEMOCRAT) is the main one in the Senate standing in front of the President and progressives yelling "ENOUGH!!! on gun control).

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to rogo727)
Post #: 35
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/7/2013 6:37:37 AM   
ckammp

 

Posts: 799
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel



'American artist George Caleb Bingham, who was staunchly pro-Union, called Order No. 11 an "act of imbecility" and wrote letters protesting it. Bingham wrote to Gen. Ewing, "If you execute this order, I shall make you infamous with pen and brush,"

It is well-known that men were shot down in the very act of obeying the order, and their wagons and effects seized by their murderers. Large trains of wagons, extending over the prairies for miles in length, and moving Kansasward, were freighted with every description of household furniture and wearing apparel belonging to the exiled inhabitants. Dense columns of smoke arising in every direction marked the conflagrations of dwellings, many of the evidences of which are yet to be seen in the remains of seared and blackened chimneys, standing as melancholy monuments of a ruthless military despotism which spared neither age, sex, character, nor condition. There was neither aid nor protection afforded to the banished inhabitants by the heartless authority which expelled them from their rightful possessions. They crowded by hundreds upon the banks of the Missouri River, and were indebted to the charity of benevolent steamboat conductors for transportation to places of safety where friendly aid could be extended to them without danger to those who ventured to contribute it.'

You defend this?



You defend slavery?

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 36
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/7/2013 6:49:26 AM   
ckammp

 

Posts: 799
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

The only thing illegal here in Missouri was the federals. Missouri's order of secession was because of the illegal actions of the federal troops concerning the Camp Jackson Affair and others. So much for neutrality. The feral federal scums brutality didn't end there. The General Order No. 11 was an order of a tyrant and madman. Many many more examples. Imposing their own legislature. Provisional gov.etc

My home town (Eminence Mo.)was burned to the ground by their illegal invasion. Land stolen. Murder committed.

But he was your tyrant though so it was o.k.? Sounds all too familiar today.

An act declaring the political ties heretofore existing between the State of Missouri and the United States of America dissolved.

Whereas the Government of the United States, in the possession and under the control of a sectional party, has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri, by invading with hostile armies the soil of the State, attacking and making prisoners the militia while legally assembled under the State laws, forcibly occupying the State capitol, and attempting through the instrumentality of domestic traitors to usurp the State government, seizing and destroying private property, and murdering with fiendish malignity peaceable citizens, men, women, and children, together with other acts of atrocity, indicating a deep-settled hostility toward the people of Missouri and their institutions;


quote:

And the United States was attempting to find a peaceful solution


You don't actually believe that do you?





Lawrence, Kansas

Those who look for a reason for General Order No. 11 need look only to the infamous barbarity that occured on 21 August 1861 at Lawrence, Kansas.

150-200 men murdered, 200 buildings burned, 2.5 million USD in damage.
Brought to you by your hometown "hero" Frank James (older brother of the notorious Jesse) and his pals William Quantrill and "Bloody Bill" Anderson.

Feral scum, indeeed.

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 37
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/7/2013 8:46:45 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 2669
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: online
quote:

barbarity that occured on 21 August 1861 at Lawrence, Kansas.


Lawrence actually occurred in 1863 in retaliation for the sacking of Osceola. Are you familiar with those facts? You know, another town that was plundered and burnt to the ground by the jayhawkers. The attack led by the sitting Kansas senator James Henry Lane himself, on Missouri towns where they burnt and plundered culminating in the atrocities at Osceola. You know, Osceola, where Lane had a 'trial' and executed 9 men before burning it to the ground and stealing everything they could?

The raid on Osceola that was led by lane and perpetrated by his jayhawkers that General Halleck, comander of the Department of Missouri said,'The course pursued by those under Lane and Jennison has turned against us many thousands who were formerly Union men. A few more such raids will make this State unanimous against us.'

Quantrill said himself that the raid on the Lawrence was 'To plunder, and destroy the town in retaliation for Osceola.'
Lane escaped being shot through the head that night for his actions only to shoot himself in the head as he committed suicide a few years later. Too bad they didn't go after six mile house. Not that I condone such actions, but I could see how things escalated after those events and after her sovereignty was invaded.

Good ole Clint Eastwood's movie The Outlaw Josie Wales was based on that raid along with other books and plays.

But keep reaching. I'm sure you will find some kind of rational for actions that almost everyone, including those for the union cause, deemed extreme and damaging.


You're entitled to you own opinion, but not your own facts.

< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 2/7/2013 10:09:56 AM >


_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to ckammp)
Post #: 38
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/7/2013 3:33:12 PM   
stockwellpete

 

Posts: 119
Joined: 12/20/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

parruski, I was rather asking about the whole antislavery war.
Civil War in teh movie was presented as a war for freeing slaves.


The North in the ACW stood for creating a modern capitalist economy with a "free" proletariat; the south in the ACW stood for the maintenance of semi-feudal plantation system with unfree labour (i.e slaves). The victory of the northern states was therefore historically progressive.

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 39
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/7/2013 3:48:05 PM   
ckammp

 

Posts: 799
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

quote:

barbarity that occured on 21 August 1861 at Lawrence, Kansas.


Lawrence actually occurred in 1863 in retaliation for the sacking of Osceola. Are you familiar with those facts? You know, another town that was plundered and burnt to the ground by the jayhawkers. The attack led by the sitting Kansas senator James Henry Lane himself, on Missouri towns where they burnt and plundered culminating in the atrocities at Osceola. You know, Osceola, where Lane had a 'trial' and executed 9 men before burning it to the ground and stealing everything they could?

The raid on Osceola that was led by lane and perpetrated by his jayhawkers that General Halleck, comander of the Department of Missouri said,'The course pursued by those under Lane and Jennison has turned against us many thousands who were formerly Union men. A few more such raids will make this State unanimous against us.'

Quantrill said himself that the raid on the Lawrence was 'To plunder, and destroy the town in retaliation for Osceola.'
Lane escaped being shot through the head that night for his actions only to shoot himself in the head as he committed suicide a few years later. Too bad they didn't go after six mile house. Not that I condone such actions, but I could see how things escalated after those events and after her sovereignty was invaded.

Good ole Clint Eastwood's movie The Outlaw Josie Wales was based on that raid along with other books and plays.

But keep reaching. I'm sure you will find some kind of rational for actions that almost everyone, including those for the union cause, deemed extreme and damaging.


You're entitled to you own opinion, but not your own facts.



Yes, I typed 1861 instead of 1863. Obviously, I know nothing, and made everything up.

Let's see:

Osceola - 9 men tried, found guilty, and duly executed; 200 slaves freed
Lawrence - 150-200 men murdered without trial

I notice you don't dispute any of these facts.

I can, of course, continue to print out actual facts that show beyond any doubt that the group you support were nothing but racist, murdering scum.

But keep reaching; I would love to hear your rational for the support of slavery. But since you seem to draw your "facts" from Hollywood movies, I doubt it.

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 40
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/7/2013 5:09:51 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 2669
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: online
I stated from the very beginning of this thread that Missouri left because they were invaded.

As far as Hollyweird, I merely mentioned that the movie was loosely based upon that raid and didn't draw any of my 'facts' from it. I haven't seen that movie in 30 years and didn't even realize it took place at that time.

I stated that Gen order 11 was a travesty and you said it was a result of the raid on Lawrence. While that is true, I also pointed out why Quantrill targeted Lawrence. I'll state it again because you seem so oblivious to any point that doesn't fit your narrative.

Missouri was invaded and countless towns were ransacked and burnt to the ground BEFORE Lawrence. I also posted that 'Not that I condone such actions, but I could see how things escalated after those events'.
At what point during those drumbeat trials did it become OK to pillage and burn Osceola like all the other towns before it that the murdering feral federals participated in? Osceola was only the latest before Lawrence.

And your strawman argument over my supposed support of slavery is your own conjuration and you are projecting someone else views on me. I never stated that I supported slavery. I made it clear in several post above that the major point of contention was the feds calling on Missouri to raise troops to be used against its own citizens and the actions of those ferals against people who broke no laws? i'e' The Camp Jackson Affair. My first post pointed to that fact.

Face it, Lawrence was retaliated for the actions committed against all the Missouri towns that were destroyed by the federals. Since you are so enlightened on the subject, maybe you could point me to where I am wrong instead of trumping up more strawman arguments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit to remove a sentence that might have been received as inflammatory. No need for that. Respond if youd like. I'll read what you have to say on the matter, but as far as I'm concerned, it isn't worth any bad blood. We may just have to agree to disagree.


< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 2/7/2013 10:04:32 PM >


_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to ckammp)
Post #: 41
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/7/2013 5:23:43 PM   
barkorn45

 

Posts: 303
Joined: 1/17/2010
Status: offline
Are you trying to say Quantrill acted under commands of higher confederate authority?
They were GUERILLAS or PARTISANS operating outside the venue of military law.
Both the north and the south employed them however abstractly.
But i forget the north was occupied by people annointed by god for their purity,piety and
angelic treatment of their fellow man whereas the south was occupied by pagan,ingnorent,
knuckle dragging neanderthals who should have prostrated themselves before the
holier than thou nothern homeric figures.I'm just curious but given the attitudes i've read
just how many of these equality minded demigods of virtue would allow their daughters to marry a black man???


(in reply to ckammp)
Post #: 42
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