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Lincoln - The Movie

 
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Lincoln - The Movie - 2/3/2013 7:03:39 PM   
doomtrader


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Yesterday I went to the cinema to see this movie.

Before I will share my opinion I would love to hear what fellow Americans think about it?
For sure acting is great, but how do you find the historical accuracy?
Post #: 1
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/3/2013 7:06:30 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 19495
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
Am I just a miserable old git - or does anyone else get really hacked off with other people's inability to read posts that others can be bothered to make??

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 2
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/3/2013 7:10:11 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4762
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Yesterday I went to the cinema to see this movie.

Before I will share my opinion I would love to hear what fellow Americans think about it?
For sure acting is great, but how do you find the historical accuracy?


The movie is very, very accurate. I am a huge American Civil War buff and a great admirer of Lincoln. There is nothing I can really take issue with. Daniel Day Lewis portrayed Lincoln in a way that is uncanny. And Lincoln did suspend habeas corpus, but worried deeply that he was wrong to do so. It's the only thing he thought he could do under the circumstances. And, doomtrader, just so you know, the American Constitution DOES ALLOW suspension of habeas corpus in time of rebellion. I just want you to know that before the Lincoln haters show up.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 3
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/3/2013 8:29:38 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 19495
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
Hope to see it shortly

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 4
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/3/2013 8:31:37 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4762
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Hope to see it shortly


No jokes when it comes to this movie. It is truly awesome. Have you ever read Team of Rivals, Doris Kearns Goodman??

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 5
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/3/2013 8:32:33 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 19495
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Hope to see it shortly


No jokes when it comes to this movie. It is truly awesome. Have you ever read Team of Rivals, Doris Kearns Goodman??
warspite1

No- I am genuine, I want to see this.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 6
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/3/2013 9:26:39 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3086
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From: arkansas
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For me, it was one of the best movies in a long time.  It reminds me of how excellent movies use to be made.  Alot of movies now, are two hour video games.  But this is a great movie.  I liked it better than Zero Dark Thirty.....even though it was a good movie.
1. Lincoln-  10/10
2. Zero Dark Thirty-  9/10
3. Silver Lining Play Book-  9/10

All of them excellent but  "F" word was used one time too many for me in number 2 and 3.  and at least once or twice in #1

Note:  In Lincoln, the Lobbiest were great....can't remember their names-real names.

< Message edited by Titanwarrior89 -- 2/4/2013 2:55:24 AM >


_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

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Post #: 7
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/3/2013 9:29:12 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3086
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From: arkansas
Status: offline
Hunger Games-   6/10

Twilight-  0/10

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 8
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/4/2013 12:56:29 AM   
rogo727


Posts: 1417
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
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Lol! I give the movie an A-. But then again I gave the thin red line a A too. It was deep and emotional and both sets of gdads fought in that war. Many fine Iowa folk lost their lives in the civil war just as many fine southern folk did also. And while the movie was mainly about the 13th amendment it could have been much much more.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Hunger Games-   6/10

Twilight-  0/10



< Message edited by rogo727 -- 2/4/2013 12:58:29 AM >


_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 9
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/4/2013 2:56:55 AM   
JW

 

Posts: 1033
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From: Monroe, LA, USA
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Fascinated by the history, but I thought it was good, not great.

(in reply to rogo727)
Post #: 10
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/4/2013 9:12:11 AM   
wodin


Posts: 8014
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Am I just a miserable old git - or does anyone else get really hacked off with other people's inability to read posts that others can be bothered to make??



Maybe because certain people drag many threads way off topic??

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Post #: 11
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/4/2013 4:01:27 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4762
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Am I just a miserable old git - or does anyone else get really hacked off with other people's inability to read posts that others can be bothered to make??



Maybe because certain people drag many threads way off topic??


wodin, surely you are not implying that Mc' Collegue W1 ever goes off topic??? Why, he might have done so a few thousand times. But that is not enough to convict him is it?? Oh, wait. I see your point.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 12
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/4/2013 7:44:51 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 19495
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Am I just a miserable old git - or does anyone else get really hacked off with other people's inability to read posts that others can be bothered to make??



Maybe because certain people drag many threads way off topic??
warspite1

Nope. Just rudeness.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 13
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/4/2013 8:06:21 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4762
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Am I just a miserable old git - or does anyone else get really hacked off with other people's inability to read posts that others can be bothered to make??



Maybe because certain people drag many threads way off topic??
warspite1

Nope. Just rudeness.



At least did not go off topic with that post. That must be some kind of record, DA.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 14
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/4/2013 8:13:02 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 19495
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Am I just a miserable old git - or does anyone else get really hacked off with other people's inability to read posts that others can be bothered to make??



Maybe because certain people drag many threads way off topic??
warspite1

Nope. Just rudeness.



At least did not go off topic with that post. That must be some kind of record, DA.
warspite1

I was wondering T-34 or Sherman?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 15
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/4/2013 8:38:18 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4762
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Am I just a miserable old git - or does anyone else get really hacked off with other people's inability to read posts that others can be bothered to make??



Maybe because certain people drag many threads way off topic??
warspite1

Nope. Just rudeness.



At least did not go off topic with that post. That must be some kind of record, DA.
warspite1

I was wondering T-34 or Sherman?


Well, considering the T-34 was a piece of junk, and I am not joking, I have to go with the Panther G.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 16
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/4/2013 9:04:38 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 19495
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Am I just a miserable old git - or does anyone else get really hacked off with other people's inability to read posts that others can be bothered to make??



Maybe because certain people drag many threads way off topic??
warspite1

Nope. Just rudeness.



At least did not go off topic with that post. That must be some kind of record, DA.
warspite1

I was wondering T-34 or Sherman?


Well, considering the T-34 was a piece of junk, and I am not joking, I have to go with the Panther G.
warspite1

The T-34 because it was made of BPB

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/4/2013 9:05:03 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 17
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/4/2013 9:11:17 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4762
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Am I just a miserable old git - or does anyone else get really hacked off with other people's inability to read posts that others can be bothered to make??



Maybe because certain people drag many threads way off topic??
warspite1

Nope. Just rudeness.



At least did not go off topic with that post. That must be some kind of record, DA.
warspite1

I was wondering T-34 or Sherman?


Well, considering the T-34 was a piece of junk, and I am not joking, I have to go with the Panther G.
warspite1

The T-34 because it was made of BPB


WOW. That is your first lucid moment in millions of posts. Regardless of what people think, the T-34 was a piece of shoot. JUNK. BPB still rules.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 18
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/5/2013 11:38:02 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5320
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline
parruski, I was rather asking about the whole antislavery war.
Civil War in teh movie was presented as a war for freeing slaves.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 19
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/5/2013 2:55:13 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4762
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

parruski, I was rather asking about the whole antislavery war.
Civil War in teh movie was presented as a war for freeing slaves.


Oh. I am sorry. I was born in a former Confederate state and grew up cherishing my Rebel heritage. That is one reason I "cling to my guns". I am an avid student of the Civil War and have read more books on the subject than I can count. To this day, 150 years on, Americans still argue with each other about the root causes of the war. Which is puzzling given the written history we have. Slavery was the ultimate cause of the war. States rights(which I love) were also a cause. The slave holding aristocracy couched their secession movement as "states rights", which of course meant freedom to hold in bondage other humans. So in the end it was all about slavery.

Even though I know secession is not a viable option, nor is it allowed, American citizens today have many more valid arguments for separation from the over reaching, to powerful federal government than at any time in our history. Americans are ruled by a government that has become a Nanny State, intruding into the most private, and constitutionally protected, areas of our lives.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 20
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/5/2013 9:31:42 PM   
barkorn45

 

Posts: 295
Joined: 1/17/2010
Status: offline
Why would you say secession is not a viable option or even allowed?
Just because lincoln used military power to force the seceded states back into the union does'nt
mean they did'nt have the right of secession.
Find me documented proof that the founders disallowed secession.
They had seceded from the british empire after all
I'll repeat the answer that Patrick Henry gave to the governor of virginia
when asked by him at the ratification of the constitution
if his state could leave the union if they found it not to their liking.
"Yes but be warned some future president may invade your country and burn your homes"
You don't think Texas could exist as an independent country?
Also technically the south did'nt rebel against the union,they did'nt try to overthrow
the government they peacefully chose to leave it.



< Message edited by barkorn45 -- 2/5/2013 9:32:39 PM >

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 21
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/5/2013 10:15:06 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4762
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

Why would you say secession is not a viable option or even allowed?
Just because lincoln used military power to force the seceded states back into the union does'nt
mean they did'nt have the right of secession.
Find me documented proof that the founders disallowed secession.
They had seceded from the british empire after all
I'll repeat the answer that Patrick Henry gave to the governor of virginia
when asked by him at the ratification of the constitution
if his state could leave the union if they found it not to their liking.
"Yes but be warned some future president may invade your country and burn your homes"
You don't think Texas could exist as an independent country?
Also technically the south did'nt rebel against the union,they did'nt try to overthrow
the government they peacefully chose to leave it.




I know. Don't confuse certain people with the facts. I am actually in the mood to have my house leave the Union and become a House State. I am furious at the level of taxation, assaults on our constitutional rights, the imposing of ideologies on our school children-the list of grievances against our Federal monster government is to long to list here...I meant to say "Lincoln, and the Republicans, did not think secession legal"!

I know I have been all over the map on the issue. The reality is I don't want this country to fall apart(and am glad it did not in the 1860's), but I think we are in the process of that happening. When you have huge numbers of sheriffs making public statements saying they will not only NOT enforce federal gun control laws, but will actually defend the citizens of their counties from federal agents, things are looking grim. And yes, sheriffs are, usually, the ultimate law enforcer's in our country. They take an oath to defend the Constitution, a Constitution which says we have the right to bear arms...it does not say "bear arms that the government says you can bear". I am through being civil on this issue.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to barkorn45)
Post #: 22
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/5/2013 10:25:15 PM   
rogo727


Posts: 1417
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline
Mr. P
Fear not! You're not the only American who is fed up. Many like myself are no longer republican or democrat but independent. While I don't ever think that we will have another civil war I think that change will be coming.
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

Why would you say secession is not a viable option or even allowed?
Just because lincoln used military power to force the seceded states back into the union does'nt
mean they did'nt have the right of secession.
Find me documented proof that the founders disallowed secession.
They had seceded from the british empire after all
I'll repeat the answer that Patrick Henry gave to the governor of virginia
when asked by him at the ratification of the constitution
if his state could leave the union if they found it not to their liking.
"Yes but be warned some future president may invade your country and burn your homes"
You don't think Texas could exist as an independent country?
Also technically the south did'nt rebel against the union,they did'nt try to overthrow
the government they peacefully chose to leave it.




I know. Don't confuse certain people with the facts. I am actually in the mood to have my house leave the Union and become a House State. I am furious at the level of taxation, assaults on our constitutional rights, the imposing of ideologies on our school children-the list of grievances against our Federal monster government is to long to list here...I meant to say "Lincoln, and the Republicans, did not think secession legal"!

I know I have been all over the map on the issue. The reality is I don't want this country to fall apart(and am glad it did not in the 1860's), but I think we are in the process of that happening. When you have huge numbers of sheriffs making public statements saying they will not only NOT enforce federal gun control laws, but will actually defend the citizens of their counties from federal agents, things are looking grim. And yes, sheriffs are, usually, the ultimate law enforcer's in our country. They take an oath to defend the Constitution, a Constitution which says we have the right to bear arms...it does not say "bear arms that the government says you can bear". I am through being civil on this issue.



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 23
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/5/2013 11:54:21 PM   
ckammp

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

Why would you say secession is not a viable option or even allowed?
Just because lincoln used military power to force the seceded states back into the union does'nt
mean they did'nt have the right of secession.
Find me documented proof that the founders disallowed secession.
They had seceded from the british empire after all
I'll repeat the answer that Patrick Henry gave to the governor of virginia
when asked by him at the ratification of the constitution
if his state could leave the union if they found it not to their liking.
"Yes but be warned some future president may invade your country and burn your homes"
You don't think Texas could exist as an independent country?
Also technically the south did'nt rebel against the union,they did'nt try to overthrow
the government they peacefully chose to leave it.




The US Constitution outlines how new States may be added to the Union. It says nothing about how a State may leave. What does that tell you?

And if by "peacefully chose to leave" you mean "started a war by shooting at a Federal fort", then yes, the rebels left "peacefully".

(in reply to barkorn45)
Post #: 24
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 12:08:20 AM   
Qwixt

 

Posts: 507
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp


quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

Why would you say secession is not a viable option or even allowed?
Just because lincoln used military power to force the seceded states back into the union does'nt
mean they did'nt have the right of secession.
Find me documented proof that the founders disallowed secession.
They had seceded from the british empire after all
I'll repeat the answer that Patrick Henry gave to the governor of virginia
when asked by him at the ratification of the constitution
if his state could leave the union if they found it not to their liking.
"Yes but be warned some future president may invade your country and burn your homes"
You don't think Texas could exist as an independent country?
Also technically the south did'nt rebel against the union,they did'nt try to overthrow
the government they peacefully chose to leave it.




The US Constitution outlines how new States may be added to the Union. It says nothing about how a State may leave. What does that tell you?

And if by "peacefully chose to leave" you mean "started a war by shooting at a Federal fort", then yes, the rebels left "peacefully".





quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

I know. Don't confuse certain people with the facts...


Such a good line that it should be quoted again for the converse.

(in reply to ckammp)
Post #: 25
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 12:08:52 AM   
barkorn45

 

Posts: 295
Joined: 1/17/2010
Status: offline
South Carolina had been an independent country for months before ft.sumpter.
And sumpter was fired on after a reinforcment/resupply fleet had been turned away after it had entered charleston harbor without authorization.
sounds like legitamate use of force to me.
Also if secession was illegal why did'nt the north immediatly start hostilities against S.Carolina instead of bringing it about
by a violation of international law.

< Message edited by barkorn45 -- 2/6/2013 12:13:48 AM >

(in reply to ckammp)
Post #: 26
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 12:13:01 AM   
barkorn45

 

Posts: 295
Joined: 1/17/2010
Status: offline
Your correct we declared our independence over a 3% tax increase.
The american people have tolerated far more than that recently as far as to the attacks
on our liberties!

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 27
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 12:18:07 AM   
ckammp

 

Posts: 789
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

South Carolina had been an independent country for months before ft.sumpter.
And sumpter was fired after a reinforcment/resupply fleet had been turned away after it had entered charleston harbor without authorization.
sounds like legitamate use of force to me.
Also if secession was illegal why did'nt the north immediatly start hostilities against S.Carolina instead of bringing it about
by a violation of international law.



If South Carolina was an independent country, what did they think would happen when they attacked first a US-charter vessel flying a US flag, and then a US fort?
Sounds like a declaration of war to me.
And the United States was attempting to find a peaceful solution to South Carolina's illegal succession, but South Carolina's rash, unprovoked attack on US possessions ruined that hope.

(in reply to barkorn45)
Post #: 28
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 1:57:03 AM   
barkorn45

 

Posts: 295
Joined: 1/17/2010
Status: offline
"If South Carolina was an independent country, what did they think would happen when they attacked first a US-charter vessel flying a US flag, and then a US fort?"
You seemed to have answered your own question with this statement.It was a declaration of war on the part of the U.S
Mantaining an ARMED fort in a foreign countries port then illegally sending a fleet into said harbor which was not international waters
no matter how you interprete international waters.Miles up a river does'nt qualify as said waters
Rash,unprovocked attack is an interesting way to view S.C reaction to what would constitute a provocative violation of their soverignety

(in reply to ckammp)
Post #: 29
RE: Lincoln - The Movie - 2/6/2013 2:10:21 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 2598
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From: Southern Missouri
Status: offline
The only thing illegal here in Missouri was the federals. Missouri's order of secession was because of the illegal actions of the federal troops concerning the Camp Jackson Affair and others. So much for neutrality. The feral federal scums brutality didn't end there. The General Order No. 11 was an order of a tyrant and madman. Many many more examples. Imposing their own legislature. Provisional gov.etc

My home town (Eminence Mo.)was burned to the ground by their illegal invasion. Land stolen. Murder committed.

But he was your tyrant though so it was o.k.? Sounds all too familiar today.

An act declaring the political ties heretofore existing between the State of Missouri and the United States of America dissolved.

Whereas the Government of the United States, in the possession and under the control of a sectional party, has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri, by invading with hostile armies the soil of the State, attacking and making prisoners the militia while legally assembled under the State laws, forcibly occupying the State capitol, and attempting through the instrumentality of domestic traitors to usurp the State government, seizing and destroying private property, and murdering with fiendish malignity peaceable citizens, men, women, and children, together with other acts of atrocity, indicating a deep-settled hostility toward the people of Missouri and their institutions;


quote:

And the United States was attempting to find a peaceful solution


You don't actually believe that do you?



< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 2/6/2013 2:51:07 AM >


_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to ckammp)
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