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B-25-D1 - 1/30/2013 9:49:25 PM   
obvert


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I just posted in the tech forum about the B-25-D1. I'm wondering if the game is using the static forward strafing guns to add to the defensive armament of the bomber. I've been seeing amazingly strong results for a while, but for the first time got a clear picture of isolated bombers mauling a groups of elite fighters, and I wonder if others have had this experience. If so, pop over there and add in so Michaelm has more than just my info about this.

Thanks.

Combat report for the strike is below. On the day this was the only air skirmish and I lost more planes than the Allies, 45 to 55. A few search planes in that total, but most were from this.

This is the last part of the strike that day, but is the example of what I'm trying to figure out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 55th Field AA Battalion, at 99,129 (Buna)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 58 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 9
J2M3 Jack x 8
N1K1-J George x 13
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 15
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 21
Ki-84a Frank x 17



Allied aircraft
B-25D1 Mitchell x 32


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 2 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-25D1 Mitchell: 9 destroyed, 8 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
201 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 9 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
Akagi-1 with J2M3 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 144 minutes
Hiyo-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
958 Ku T-2 with A6M3a Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 237 minutes
11th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 192 minutes
26th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 79 minutes
68th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
70th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (17 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
17 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
203rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 22nd Division, at 99,129 (Buna)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 22
J2M3 Jack x 13
N1K1-J George x 15
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 26
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 26
Ki-84a Frank x 17

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 21
B-24D Liberator x 20
B-24D1 Liberator x 97
B-24J Liberator x 38
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 30

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
80 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 6 (2 destroyed, 4 disabled)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 3rd Garrison Unit , at 99,129 (Buna)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 16
J2M3 Jack x 9
N1K1-J George x 8
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 18
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 19
Ki-84a Frank x 8



Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 6


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 3rd Garrison Unit , at 99,129 (Buna)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 68 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 22
J2M3 Jack x 10
N1K1-J George x 14
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 23
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 26
Ki-84a Frank x 17



Allied aircraft
Mitchell II x 35
B-25C Mitchell x 64
B-25D1 Mitchell x 76
F6F-3 Hellcat x 13


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Mitchell II: 5 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-25D1 Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged
F6F-3 Hellcat: 4 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
101 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled



Aircraft Attacking:
18 x Mitchell II bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
17 x Mitchell II bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
16 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
16 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
16 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
201 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 9 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
Akagi-1 with J2M3 Jack (10 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
Hiyo-1 with N1K1-J George (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
958 Ku T-2 with A6M3a Zero (22 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
22 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
11th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
26th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (15 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
15 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Raid is overhead
68th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (12 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
12 planes vectored on to bombers
70th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (17 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
17 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
203rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 11 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes

Banzai! - Makino D. in a Ki-44-IIc Tojo rams a B-25D1 Mitchell for the Emperor

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/30/2013 10:11:22 PM >


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Post #: 1
RE: B-25-D1 - 1/30/2013 10:34:17 PM   
obvert


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After looking for some more info about the B-25 strafers, just to see if I could find anything supporting use of these guns in air-to-air battles, I found some great footage of what they did best. Wiping out airfields and hitting ships. Amazing pics and a great film about an attack on the Wewak area by strafing B-25D1s, showing gun camera footage of the airfield being hit.

http://www.3rdattackgroup.org/missions.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YcvZqKXybc&feature=youtu.be

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/30/2013 11:59:21 PM   
Lokasenna


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...and that's what happens when you overstack your airfields

From the results you posted, to my untrained eye only the first one seems "wrong". A 1:1 kill ratio with bombers is a bit much.

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 12:10:32 AM   
spence

 

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1:1 does seem a bit much but if the fighter pilot chooses a head-on approach he's putting himself on the wrong end of a lot of machine guns. The head-on tactic was favored against other types of bombers particularly by highly skilled pilots. Telling the difference between one model or another, even by experienced pilots, in combat is problematical.

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 12:23:33 AM   
Mundy


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From: Neenah
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

After looking for some more info about the B-25 strafers, just to see if I could find anything supporting use of these guns in air-to-air battles, I found some great footage of what they did best. Wiping out airfields and hitting ships. Amazing pics and a great film about an attack on the Wewak area by strafing B-25D1s, showing gun camera footage of the airfield being hit.

http://www.3rdattackgroup.org/missions.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YcvZqKXybc&feature=youtu.be


That YouTube vid was interesting with the planes carrying a mix of national markings. Some with bars and most without.

Ed-

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 12:45:32 AM   
crsutton


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If I recall the killer b25 was an issue way back in the beginning and was fixed. I have never seen this result in my games. I suggest you test this as one combat does not carry much weight.

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 12:55:43 AM   
Saros

 

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This has happened to me when I bounced some bombing beaufighters with oscars. All was going well then half a dozen oscars made head on runs and got hilariously overkilled by the ten forward guns.

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 2:02:17 AM   
Colonel Mustard


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From: Upstate New York USA
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Maybe a little off-topic, but your first combat report shows "Akagi-1" having J2M3 Jack planes. Is this a carrier squadron? I think the Jack was strictly a land-based plane. Could be wrong, though, any thoughts?

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 2:35:57 AM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Mustard

Maybe a little off-topic, but your first combat report shows "Akagi-1" having J2M3 Jack planes. Is this a carrier squadron? I think the Jack was strictly a land-based plane. Could be wrong, though, any thoughts?


If I remember right, Akagi has been sunk, so Akagi-1 is now a land base fighter unit.

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 2:36:23 AM   
JeffK


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But look at the last combat, you only lost 3 fighters in intercepting a group of 175 Mitchell variants and claiming 7 victories.
How many 50cals were in that bomber group??
In the combat your mostly poorly armoured and armed fighted came out 1-1, far from a devastating loss, especially if one of your pilots is stupid enough to ram one of them.

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 6:50:42 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

If I recall the killer b25 was an issue way back in the beginning and was fixed. I have never seen this result in my games. I suggest you test this as one combat does not carry much weight.


Thanks. I've seen this quite a few times, so this is the most recent (and most extreme) example. I of course would have to dig through and find those reports, which would take some time. I thought it might be easier to see if others had had this first before going through testing I don't have time for right now.



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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 7:02:48 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

But look at the last combat, you only lost 3 fighters in intercepting a group of 175 Mitchell variants and claiming 7 victories.
How many 50cals were in that bomber group??
In the combat your mostly poorly armoured and armed fighted came out 1-1, far from a devastating loss, especially if one of your pilots is stupid enough to ram one of them.


This might have made sense if it were early 43, but these are fighters with armor (all of them except the A6M3a), with 20mm cannons, and they are meeting this group with good numbers. There is a reason daylight bombing was considered dangerous in ww2 without sufficient escort. Yes some interceptors would be shot down, but the bombers would suffer quite a bit in the process.

The combat as a whole has more interceptors being shot down than bombers. That doesn't make sense with these numbers and the quality involved. Especially when you consider that situations modeled with 4Es with similar numbers would come out with the bombers shot down at about a 2:1 rate (in my experience).

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 9:58:06 AM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

...and that's what happens when you overstack your airfields

From the results you posted, to my untrained eye only the first one seems "wrong". A 1:1 kill ratio with bombers is a bit much.


In the first one, 28 fighters (17 Franks + 11 Tojos) intercepted 32 Mitchells. 2 Franks and 2 Tojos were either shot down or destroyed on the ground. 9 Mitchells were lost (in air combat or shot down by AA). Hardly a 1:1 kill ratio (most Japanese planes were ostensibly destroyed on the ground).

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 11:04:33 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

...and that's what happens when you overstack your airfields

From the results you posted, to my untrained eye only the first one seems "wrong". A 1:1 kill ratio with bombers is a bit much.


In the first one, 28 fighters (17 Franks + 11 Tojos) intercepted 32 Mitchells. 2 Franks and 2 Tojos were either shot down or destroyed on the ground. 9 Mitchells were lost (in air combat or shot down by AA). Hardly a 1:1 kill ratio (most Japanese planes were ostensibly destroyed on the ground).


I think he was referring to the video linked above. It shows the B-25D1s wiping a severely overstacked set of Japanese fields near Wewak from low altitude.

The attack I'm referring to in the OP is a ground attack on troops. The B-25D1s come separated from the other planes at the end of the day and obliterate the interceptors in the air! All of these planes are lost in combat, even when the fighters begin to outnumber the bombers they are shot down at more than a 1:1 ratio judging by my experience in the combat replay and the final tally in the info report.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/31/2013 11:05:37 AM >


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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 12:31:04 PM   
oldman45


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Personally I thought you got off pretty light. In looking over the Army Air Corp Histories, it appeared mid war they were more concerned about flak and flak suppression than the fighters. Perhaps the game is factoring in the nose guns on the D1's.

I read a passage somewhere that some crews painted the glass noses green to try to fool the fighters into thinking they were D1 variants in an attempt to keep them from making head on passes.

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 4:00:22 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Personally I thought you got off pretty light. In looking over the Army Air Corp Histories, it appeared mid war they were more concerned about flak and flak suppression than the fighters. Perhaps the game is factoring in the nose guns on the D1's.

I read a passage somewhere that some crews painted the glass noses green to try to fool the fighters into thinking they were D1 variants in an attempt to keep them from making head on passes.


If you look at the one first section of the report there is a marked difference between that and the others that follow. In that one the fighters are decimated fighting a much smaller force than in the other two major portions of the battle, where they suffered minimal losses.

I'm not sure what you mean by getting off lightly in this situation. I'm trying to highlight that even considering the various parts of this battle, the portions with escort, the other with with more bombers (and more 4Es with even more defensive guns) that should be working together to organize defensive fire, the fighters are not being shot down at anything like the rate of the part with the isolated 32 B-25D1s.

I'm simply saying that it looks like the nose guns are in fact being used consistently (and this is born out by other battles I've witnessed in my game) to 'overpower' defensive fire of this certain model of plane. All other models seem to work much better and more consistently across the board.

Aside from this, if you look at the original post, I'm looking to see if other players have noticed anything similar, from either side, in their own games, with this model of plane.

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 7:23:15 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

But look at the last combat, you only lost 3 fighters in intercepting a group of 175 Mitchell variants and claiming 7 victories.
How many 50cals were in that bomber group??
In the combat your mostly poorly armoured and armed fighted came out 1-1, far from a devastating loss, especially if one of your pilots is stupid enough to ram one of them.


This might have made sense if it were early 43, but these are fighters with armor (all of them except the A6M3a), with 20mm cannons, and they are meeting this group with good numbers. There is a reason daylight bombing was considered dangerous in ww2 without sufficient escort. Yes some interceptors would be shot down, but the bombers would suffer quite a bit in the process.

The combat as a whole has more interceptors being shot down than bombers. That doesn't make sense with these numbers and the quality involved. Especially when you consider that situations modeled with 4Es with similar numbers would come out with the bombers shot down at about a 2:1 rate (in my experience).



Actually, (and this does not necessarily mean it happens in the game) The Americans considered all of their medium and heavy bombers well equipped to handle Japanese fighters without escort. As long as they kept formation and were in sufficient numbers. The bombers were simply better armed than most Japanese aircraft and Japanese fighter pilots were not generally well trained in the group tactics needed to attack bombers. (here is where the lack of radios made a big difference) It was vastly different than in Europe.

Zeros had some trouble bringing down SBDs and avengers if the American pilots were experienced and kept tight formation.

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 7:55:38 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Could this possible be a fatigue issue? All of the previous battles were "normal" while this one really stood out. But this was also the last one. Could it be that the Jap pilots were extremely fatigued at this point? I know I have been getting 30+ fatigue by simple LRCAP without combat.

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RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 8:50:45 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

But look at the last combat, you only lost 3 fighters in intercepting a group of 175 Mitchell variants and claiming 7 victories.
How many 50cals were in that bomber group??
In the combat your mostly poorly armoured and armed fighted came out 1-1, far from a devastating loss, especially if one of your pilots is stupid enough to ram one of them.


This might have made sense if it were early 43, but these are fighters with armor (all of them except the A6M3a), with 20mm cannons, and they are meeting this group with good numbers. There is a reason daylight bombing was considered dangerous in ww2 without sufficient escort. Yes some interceptors would be shot down, but the bombers would suffer quite a bit in the process.

The combat as a whole has more interceptors being shot down than bombers. That doesn't make sense with these numbers and the quality involved. Especially when you consider that situations modeled with 4Es with similar numbers would come out with the bombers shot down at about a 2:1 rate (in my experience).



Actually, (and this does not necessarily mean it happens in the game) The Americans considered all of their medium and heavy bombers well equipped to handle Japanese fighters without escort. As long as they kept formation and were in sufficient numbers. The bombers were simply better armed than most Japanese aircraft and Japanese fighter pilots were not generally well trained in the group tactics needed to attack bombers. (here is where the lack of radios made a big difference) It was vastly different than in Europe.

Zeros had some trouble bringing down SBDs and avengers if the American pilots were experienced and kept tight formation.


All good points.

In game, whether it's a good thing or not, it's a bit different. The Japanese side is often using better quality fighters, in more concentrated points of battle, and with a better quality of pilot. They might also be picking their spots more carefully and are very wary of known Allied strengths, distances of plane type ranges, etc. All of this is of course completely ahistorical. Is this bomber, the B-25D1 then modeled to have better defensive armament than a 4E B-24D, and just as much as a B-24J? Because if it is using all of it's guns in defense, it would. In fact, it only has two guns in a turret that could swing into a defensive position. Fewer than most current Japanese models actually!

I'm truly not sure how the lack of radios is modeled in game if it is at all. Maybe there is a coordination bonus hidden in there for Allied fighters and none for the Japanese, and the same on defense for Allied bomber groups (possibly the reason Japanese bombers haven't once in my experience ever shot down an Allied fighter. It should be somewhat rare, but it should happen).

The real point is I know I will lose a lot of planes against 4Es. It's tough to get used to, but it is fairly ingrained in my thinking now. I know I will lose some to 2Es. That's also part of the deal. I just don't expect to lose about 20-25 fighters attacking 32 bombers, while shooting at them with lots of 20mm canons and having them only shoot with one double 50cal turret each. Not even if I also shoot down 20 of them. If this were a real situation, those Japanese pilots might notice the defensive turret is only on the top of the plane, probably because they were designed to attack low to the ground. In game this result seems too much and those planes should not have the same capability as late game 4Es to fire defensively.

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Post #: 19
RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 9:09:29 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Could this possible be a fatigue issue? All of the previous battles were "normal" while this one really stood out. But this was also the last one. Could it be that the Jap pilots were extremely fatigued at this point? I know I have been getting 30+ fatigue by simple LRCAP without combat.


After the turn no groups were over 29 fatigue, and that was Oscars flying all of the way from Rabaul. Most were under 20 still. I even forgot to turn off the Georges the next day and they still weren't over 25 fatigue!

Maybe this has something to do with it. I'l keep my eye on it for the future.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 20
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