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Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undocked at a friendly port

 
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Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undocked... - 1/30/2013 9:32:02 PM   
BigDuke66


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The manual provides numbers for "an assault unloads over the beach" and "amphibious unload in a small friendly port" but in my case none of those numbers fit but that can be expected as the manual further states:
"Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port
size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with
attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships."
The first two cases get some solid numbers, this case lacks any numbers to give clue on the unload rates in this particular case.

Also the paragraph doesn't make much sense because why should an Amphibious TF unloading while UNDOCKED have its unload rate influenced by port size & free dock space?
Isn't this the point of making an Amphibious TF to not be bothered by port size and dock space?
Obviously the undocked amphibious unload is neither, an "assault unload over the beach" nor an "amphibious unload while docked in a port".

I just have an amphibious TF unloading 804 supplies per ship(2x AK) last turn in a hex with a level 2 port while undocked. This strange value might has been effected by a air and a sub attack but still it's clear that neither the "assault unload over the beach" rate of 600 nor the "amphibious unload while docked in a port" rate of 300 for cargo(supplies) fit into this.

So is anyone able to provide numbers for Troop unload & Cargo unload rates for the following ship types in case of an "amphibious unload while NOT docked in a port"???
» Beaching Crafts
» Attack Amphibious Ships
» Regular Amphibious Ships
» Merchant Ships

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 1/31/2013 5:14:32 AM   
rms1pa

 

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how much naval support is present?

are there amphib ships disbanded in the port? empty but present in the TF? empty LCs? barges?

not an easy thing to just evaluate.

rms/pa

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 1/31/2013 1:47:51 PM   
John Lansford

 

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If you've got landing craft (LST's, etc) trying to unload at a port, they will unload in one turn across the beach, whether you docked them or not. Same with "attack" ships (AKA/APA types). They bring their own boats to load/unload so they don't need the port's facilities. Everything else, from the AK/AP types to the xAK and xAP's, will load/unload faster while docked at a port than if they are just sitting in the harbor, unloading into small boats.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 1/31/2013 2:20:46 PM   
BigDuke66


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@rms1pa
No naval support, no ships in port, no empty in TF, and nothing else but AKs and an escort of DD & DMS.
Again I don't know why all this should matter as I unload undocked so port facilities shouldn't be used at all.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 1/31/2013 7:11:38 PM   
BigDuke66


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Well move one of the AKs into a new TF and docked it but it still unloads 804 per turn in a level 2 port.
Strange is that the original TF unloaded 780 in the turn after I docked the other AK and in the next turn where some naval support squads start to arrive it unloaded 854.
So if port is busy it seems to lower what ships in amphibious TFs can unload, on the other hand naval support seems to raise what amphibious TFs can unload per ship & turn.

Again can't follow this logic but at least the paragraph of the manual is correct as far as the "port size and amount of free dock space" has an impact unloading amphibious TFs that are undocked.

@John Lansford
Well "attack" ships (AKA/APA types) have a high unload rate but I don't think the unload in one turn except they have real small troop & cargo load aboard.
Also as you see the ship unloaded 804 being undocked and 804 being docked so it does seem to be an advantage docking those amphibious TFs.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 1/31/2013 9:00:40 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

The manual provides numbers for "an assault unloads over the beach" and "amphibious unload in a small friendly port" but in my case none of those numbers fit but that can be expected as the manual further states:
"Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port
size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with
attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships."
The first two cases get some solid numbers, this case lacks any numbers to give clue on the unload rates in this particular case.

Also the paragraph doesn't make much sense because why should an Amphibious TF unloading while UNDOCKED have its unload rate influenced by port size & free dock space?
Isn't this the point of making an Amphibious TF to not be bothered by port size and dock space?
Obviously the undocked amphibious unload is neither, an "assault unload over the beach" nor an "amphibious unload while docked in a port".

I just have an amphibious TF unloading 804 supplies per ship(2x AK) last turn in a hex with a level 2 port while undocked. This strange value might has been effected by a air and a sub attack but still it's clear that neither the "assault unload over the beach" rate of 600 nor the "amphibious unload while docked in a port" rate of 300 for cargo(supplies) fit into this.

So is anyone able to provide numbers for Troop unload & Cargo unload rates for the following ship types in case of an "amphibious unload while NOT docked in a port"???
» Beaching Crafts
» Attack Amphibious Ships
» Regular Amphibious Ships
» Merchant Ships


I do not believe it is possible to directly answer your question. Unload rates must consider two factors: the ability of the ships to unload and the ability of the port to receive.
An UNDOCKED amphib TF can probably unload faster than the port can receive. Landing craft of the amphib ships can unload directly to a beach, somewhat increasing unload rate. However the "over the beach" unload rates for friendly ports are less than those used during invasions. During invasions you just dump the stuff on the sand and hope it gets used. When using beach unload at a friendly port the port must provide facilities to handle and store the unloaded stuff. When the port is overwhelmed, ship unloading must pause while the port catches up.

And, remember, there is a port manager that optimizes use of port facilities. If the entire TF can not dock but there is some free dock space, the port manager will "temp dock" any individual ship that it can. This is subject to ship size and free dock limitations.

What I can answer:

Beaching Craft and Attack Amphibious Ships are all Amphib ships for the purpose of non-invasion unloads. In UNDOCKED TFs, they unload at a factor based on the amphib rate. This factor is 60% of the amphib rate for troops and 40% for cargo. The amphib rate is 3000. However, you will almost never see these unload rates due to port limitations.

By Regular Amphibious Ships I assume you mean AP and AK types. These unload at the 60% Troop/40% Cargo factors based on the Transport Ship rate of 1500.

Merchant ships use the same 60% Troop, 40% cargo factors but base it on the Merchant rate(s). These rates are:
Japanese Merchant Ships: 400
except during initial bonus period 1200
Allied Merchant Ships: 250
(I do not recall why Japanese Merchant ship rate is higher than allied. Some gaming issue I expect)



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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/1/2013 12:11:55 AM   
BigDuke66


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Thanks, "Port manager" totally new to me, if the games does that I guess I can forget testing the rates for undocked ships as the manager would do what ever he does behind my back without me getting any clue of it.

Ok, from the manual p.128:
***
6.3.3.3.2.1 OVER THE BEACH
This is for assault unloading over the beach.
» Beaching Craft. Beaching craft unload completely in one turn.
» Attack Amphibious Ships. (APA/AKA plus LSD, LSV and British equivalents) in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 3000 points per ship, per turn.
» Regular Transport Ships. (Commissioned Naval AP/AK) in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 600 points per ship per turn.
» Merchant Ships. (xAP/xAK) in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 250 points per ship per turn.
» Special Japanese early war bonus of 1200 for all AP/AK and xAP/xAK types.
***
So I see your 3000 and 250(weren't those 400 from the original WitP?) here and the bonus of 1200 too, now manual states 600 for AP & AKs and you say 1500, could you confirm the 1500?
1500 would really put anything else more in line as the unload rates I now see would lay lower than the beach assault rates(where one would expect the best rates) but higher than rates for docked amphibious unload which I guess are the worst as the port hinders the amphibious unload.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/1/2013 12:25:58 AM   
Don Bowen


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1500 confirmed. Manual may be a bit out of date as everyone bitches and sometimes things get changed (and changed, and changed).

I believe the manual section you quote is for amphib invasions. Very, very different. Invasions you push stuff ashore and ignore ops losses. Small friendly port you proceed more carefully.

The port manager is your friend. Depend on him and buy him the odd bottle of scotch.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/12/2013 10:08:04 PM   
alanschu

 

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Slight aside, don't use the big passenger liners in an amphibious operation! XD

Slooooooooooooooooooow. Queen Elizabeth FINALLY dropped off her last troops while retaking Port Moresby

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/12/2013 10:16:44 PM   
BigDuke66


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You use those ships for amphibious ops???
Crazy!

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/12/2013 10:17:33 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

You use those ships for amphibious ops???
Crazy!


I did it too. Gotta live a little, man!

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/12/2013 10:27:12 PM   
alanschu

 

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In retrospect it wasn't the smartest idea haha.

I didn't really think ( >.> ) but I needed APs to get the US 25th Infantry Division there, as well as a host of other Australian squads (I actually had to make two TFs).

Took back Port Moresby, but the unloading took probably 4 or 5 days which was nerve racking as some carriers were down around Suva bombing up a storm, and my carriers were detecting task forces en route to Cooktown (by the looks of things) as well as some ships that landed in northeastern Australia (some isloated port... Boise and some Clemsons were able to intercept the transport convoy, from Darwin, when it was returning and got in some great kills).

But yeah, I'm about to have the Queen Elizabeth zip around to Aden and help bring that Australian infantry division back home. Though I don't have much time (Queen leaves in about 40 days). Love the speed and capacity though!

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/12/2013 11:04:18 PM   
jmalter

 

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liners QE2 & Canberra were used as troopships in the Falklands war - QE2 was held in South Georgia where her load was transferred to other ships. Canberra took part in the initial invasion of San Carlos (21 May 82), de-barking troops of 3 Cmdo Bgde from jerry-built helipads on her upper deck & LCVPs from lower-deck ports (called 'gash' ports, they'd normally be used to offload trash & reload stores when she was docked).

nicknamed 'The Great White Whale' due to her obvious vulnerability, she continued to serve as a hospital/casevac ship for the RN. when hostilities ended, she helped return Argentinean POWs.

pic shows SS Canberra & HMS Andromeda at Port Stanley on 14 June 82, after the Argentine surrender.




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< Message edited by jmalter -- 2/12/2013 11:06:21 PM >

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/13/2013 2:15:46 AM   
Lokasenna


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That's a whole lot more rust streaking than I was hoping for. For a ship still in service? That's a bit shameful.

Still, thanks for the pic.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/13/2013 5:27:53 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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you know the Argentinian "propaganda machine" sunk the Camberra a couple of times;

it should had been fun to watch it then docked at Puerto Madryn ferrying back POWs

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/14/2013 6:42:25 AM   
jmalter

 

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"shameful" rust streaks? i think not - more like honorable marks of hard service. this pic shows HMS Hermes entering Portsmouth on 21 July 82. she can wear those rust streaks w/ pride!




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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/14/2013 12:42:36 PM   
catwhoorg


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The South Atlantic is/was/will always be rough on ships, and their paint jobs.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/14/2013 3:23:28 PM   
bigred


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quote:

ORIGINAL: alanschu

Slight aside, don't use the big passenger liners in an amphibious operation! XD

Slooooooooooooooooooow. Queen Elizabeth FINALLY dropped off her last troops while retaking Port Moresby

This situation caused me when I am making an amphib TF to limit the troop carrying size of the ships to under 2000.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/14/2013 4:39:40 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

"shameful" rust streaks? i think not - more like honorable marks of hard service. this pic shows HMS Hermes entering Portsmouth on 21 July 82. she can wear those rust streaks w/ pride!





Fine, I submit!

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 2/14/2013 5:02:21 PM   
alanschu

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred
This situation caused me when I am making an amphib TF to limit the troop carrying size of the ships to under 2000.


Haha good idea. I have relegated those passenger liners to shuttling Australian divisions back home from Aden (which is probably what they should do anyways!)

Love their speed. Queen Eliz has been withdrawn, but Queen Mary and Aquitaine are busting a move through the (still unchallenged) Indian Ocean and dropping troops off in Perth.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 3/23/2014 12:36:23 AM   
CptEggman

 

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So what is the regular rate unloading at a friendly level 2 port for instance? I'm trying to supply Adak at the moment and can get about 500 off my docked transport per day. This seems a little low to me, so I started looking for the actual number, but can't find it. BigDuke's numbers are for "over the beach" port operations, but I'm actually docked. Well, my transport is

Edit: I'm sure there are a great many things affecting the rate, but is there a "rule of thumb" you guys use in calculating your supply efforts?

< Message edited by CptEggman -- 3/23/2014 1:50:25 AM >

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 3/23/2014 2:28:58 AM   
erstad

 

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Section 6.3.3.2.4 and 6.3.3.3.1 of the manual has this. Can't swear to it's complete accuracy, but when AE first came out I ran some tests on resource loading that, IIRC, match the table.

So at a level 2 port, a given ship in a transport TF could unload 400 troop load points or 200 cargo load points per 12 hour phase. There are also port maximums independent of how many sihps are trying to unload.

Damage to the port decreases this, available naval support increases this.

So "about 500" supply sounds "about right", it would nominally be 400 and you could either have some naval support, or considering the 400 to be about 500, or I could be off a little somehow.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 3/23/2014 2:59:49 AM   
CptEggman

 

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Hey thanks, good info! Curious: How would you account for the fact that loading is so much faster? It took only 2 days to load the 6700 the transport can carry at Dutch Harbor (5), yet the table in 6.3.3.2.4 states 1000 a day (which matches the 400 unloading @ level 2 @ Adak). Or am I reading this wrong? Sorry to pester you about this, still trying to learn.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 3/23/2014 3:07:57 AM   
EHansen


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How many Naval Support do you have at Dutch Harbor? Each Naval Support will add 10 to the load/unload rate.

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RE: Amphibious Task Force unload rates while being undo... - 3/23/2014 3:15:03 AM   
CptEggman

 

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Oh wow, I didn't know that was that actual value, I thought it worked with "support", didn't know about "naval support". I have 220, an HQ and some Engineers. None at Adak, that makes sense!

Thanks so much!

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