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B-25-D1 - 1/30/2013 8:28:37 PM   
obvert


Posts: 7516
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
We're in Jan 44 and I've been noticing for some time that the B-25-D1 seems awfully strong when attacked by fighters. I have more fighters shot down than bombers in the current attack, and these are among the better interceptors in Japan's arsenal, including Georges, Franks, Tojo IIc and Jacks. They generally do much better against 4E than this B-25 variant. There were 28 fighters engaging immediately, Franks and Tojo IIc. Even though the times for all planes to engage were long, some of each made it for sure, (I watched the numbers build at various points and then get whittled away in the replay) as some of each are listed shot down. These groups had virtually no fatigue and moral for all was in the high 90s. Most pilots of Franks, Georges, Jacks and Tojo IIc are in the 60-75 experience range, air and defensive skills averaging about 70.

So here is what I wonder. Is the calculation for the defensive fire using the static forward facing guns as well as the turrets? Seems like it shouldn't because those guns are statically mounted for strafing.

It's very frustrating to get the bombers unescorted and then have my interceptors completely chewed apart by them, much more so than if the same planes met the latest B-24Js in equal numbers. The ones attacking the unescorted bombers did much worse than those attacking the Hellcat escorted planes.
Something seems fishy about all of this.

Here is the combat report. Please let me know if you need a save. I have just watched the replay but can send the turn file tomorrow.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 55th Field AA Battalion, at 99,129 (Buna)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 58 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 9
J2M3 Jack x 8
N1K1-J George x 13
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 15
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 21
Ki-84a Frank x 17

Allied aircraft
B-25D1 Mitchell x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 2 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-25D1 Mitchell: 9 destroyed, 8 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
201 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 9 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
Akagi-1 with J2M3 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 144 minutes
Hiyo-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
958 Ku T-2 with A6M3a Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 237 minutes
11th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 192 minutes
26th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 79 minutes
68th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
70th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (17 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
17 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
203rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead


-------------------------------

And here is rest of the battle. Although it feels like we should have got to more of them, these results are at least positive.

On the day I end up with more planes destroyed than the Allies (~45 Allied and 55 IJ ), and this was the only action in the air!! Attacking mostly unescorted bombers in numbers and at the same altitude they're coming in on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 3rd Garrison Unit , at 99,129 (Buna)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 68 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 22
J2M3 Jack x 10
N1K1-J George x 14
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 23
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 26
Ki-84a Frank x 17


Allied aircraft
Mitchell II x 35
B-25C Mitchell x 64
B-25D1 Mitchell x 76
F6F-3 Hellcat x 13


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Mitchell II: 5 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-25D1 Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged
F6F-3 Hellcat: 4 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
101 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled



Aircraft Attacking:
18 x Mitchell II bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
17 x Mitchell II bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
16 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
16 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
16 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
201 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 9 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
Akagi-1 with J2M3 Jack (10 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
Hiyo-1 with N1K1-J George (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
958 Ku T-2 with A6M3a Zero (22 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
22 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
11th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
26th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (15 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
15 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Raid is overhead
68th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (12 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
12 planes vectored on to bombers
70th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (17 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
17 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
203rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 11 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes

Banzai! - Makino D. in a Ki-44-IIc Tojo rams a B-25D1 Mitchell for the Emperor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 22nd Division, at 99,129 (Buna)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 22
J2M3 Jack x 13
N1K1-J George x 15
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 26
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 26
Ki-84a Frank x 17



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 21
B-24D Liberator x 20
B-24D1 Liberator x 97
B-24J Liberator x 38
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 30


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
80 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 6 (2 destroyed, 4 disabled)



Aircraft Attacking:
12 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
201 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (10 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
Akagi-1 with J2M3 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
Hiyo-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
958 Ku T-2 with A6M3a Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 22 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
11th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
26th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 15 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
68th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
70th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 17 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
203rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes

Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 3rd Garrison Unit ...
Also attacking 91st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 14th Garrison Unit ...
Also attacking 22nd JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 47th Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 22nd Division ...
Also attacking 57th Field AA Battalion ...
Also attacking 55th Field AA Battalion ...
Also attacking 39th Road Const Co ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 16th AA Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd Garrison Unit ...
Also attacking 22nd Division ...
Also attacking 3rd Garrison Unit ...
Also attacking 22nd Division ...
Also attacking 3rd Garrison Unit ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 22nd Division ...
Also attacking 55th Field AA Battalion ...
Also attacking 22nd Division ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 3rd Garrison Unit ...
Also attacking 91st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 14th Garrison Unit ...
Also attacking 22nd JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 47th Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 57th Field AA Battalion ...
Also attacking 39th Road Const Co ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 3rd Garrison Unit ...
Also attacking 22nd Division ...
Also attacking 3rd Garrison Unit ...
Also attacking 22nd Division ...
Also attacking 55th Field AA Battalion ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 3rd Garrison Unit , at 99,129 (Buna)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 16
J2M3 Jack x 9
N1K1-J George x 8
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 18
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 19
Ki-84a Frank x 8



Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
201 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 262 minutes
Akagi-1 with J2M3 Jack (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
Hiyo-1 with N1K1-J George (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
958 Ku T-2 with A6M3a Zero (16 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
11th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
26th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Raid is overhead
68th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
70th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
203rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead




< Message edited by obvert -- 2/1/2013 8:36:19 AM >


_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Post #: 1
RE: B-25-D1 - 1/31/2013 11:12:35 AM   
obvert


Posts: 7516
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Let me phrase this another way since obviously the first attempt is not generating any interest as of yet.

Is it possible that the front facing guns of the B-25D1 model are used in air combat with fighters? Is this intended? If not is it fixable?

If this is intended is it something that would extend to all FB and AB models with fixed front facing guns when in a bombing roll and faced with defense against incoming fighters?

(As I understand it FB will often jettison the bomb load to then fight the interceptors, but the ABs don't do this and go on and bomb as well).

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/31/2013 12:22:22 PM >


_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2
RE: B-25-D1 - 2/1/2013 8:32:39 AM   
obvert


Posts: 7516
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Here is the save for the turn, now that it's finished.

As stated before, I'm not that concerned with losses, but simply that the losses in the one section of the combat with the B-25D1 seem out of expected norms considering that model has only one defensive turret but does better than the most powerful new 4Es in defense.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/1/2013 10:12:27 AM >


_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3
RE: B-25-D1 - 2/2/2013 3:46:44 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5925
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
Nemo looked at this extensively maybe 2 years ago, I think his threads are in the War Room but maybe in the Mod folder.  Anyway, his conclusion was that bomber guns were treated about equal to that of fighters.  He came up with some alternative specs for the bomber guns (created a separate device number with substantially lower accuracy).  They have never been incorporated into the stock game.

In my mod, I took his results and use his concept (separate devices for bomber guns), but not his proposed specs.  His proposal basically nerfed the accuracy of the bomber guns.  My solution decreases the accuracy, but not as much as Nemo proposed.  I then also decrease the effect of the bomber guns.  This causes a fair amount of damage on the defending fighters, but doesn't create very many bomber aces.  For me, this better mimics my interpretation of the RL results.  I'm fairly satisfied with my results thus far. 

You may want to review those threads.  The discussions were quite lively, especially the parts about bomber gunner accuracy.  I'm a bit fortunate in that a good friend was a B24 belly turrent gunner in Africa and Italy.  So I have some first hand accounts of how it was.  When the discussion was going on, I would forward some of the posts to him for his thoughts.  I never posted them here as Gene is a little blunt.  The short of it is that 4E gunners were not aces ... the shooting solutions were far more difficult than the fighter pilots ... the 4E gunners were far more exposed and took heavy losses.  Remember, fighter pilot had an engine block between him and what he shot at.  4E gunners had aluminum or glass.  Gene survived his 20 missions.  Belly gunners were one of the higher casualty positions in the B24 ... 

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 4
RE: B-25-D1 - 2/2/2013 9:05:51 AM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 2091
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
Obvert,

I remember a discussion on this subject a long time ago (2011 or something) but for the life of me can't find the thread.. I did find this in the patch notes as change 5.19:

"Facing of forward armament of all multi-engined level bombers set to Front"

That already has reduced the accuracy (used to be centerline guns). I remember attack bombers being way more effective vs fighters compared to your example.

Is it possible for you to go back to the combat replay and check on attack vectors? Fighters tend to attack level bombers in formation from low/high front or low/high rear with a few side attacks mixed in. Attacking 32 attack bombers (misidentified as level bombers) could lead to issues for the fighters.

If I was a fighter leader I would try to make a side attack on these monsters...

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 5
RE: B-25-D1 - 2/2/2013 9:53:26 AM   
obvert


Posts: 7516
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

Nemo looked at this extensively maybe 2 years ago, I think his threads are in the War Room but maybe in the Mod folder. Anyway, his conclusion was that bomber guns were treated about equal to that of fighters. He came up with some alternative specs for the bomber guns (created a separate device number with substantially lower accuracy). They have never been incorporated into the stock game.

In my mod, I took his results and use his concept (separate devices for bomber guns), but not his proposed specs. His proposal basically nerfed the accuracy of the bomber guns. My solution decreases the accuracy, but not as much as Nemo proposed. I then also decrease the effect of the bomber guns. This causes a fair amount of damage on the defending fighters, but doesn't create very many bomber aces. For me, this better mimics my interpretation of the RL results. I'm fairly satisfied with my results thus far.

You may want to review those threads. The discussions were quite lively, especially the parts about bomber gunner accuracy. I'm a bit fortunate in that a good friend was a B24 belly turrent gunner in Africa and Italy. So I have some first hand accounts of how it was. When the discussion was going on, I would forward some of the posts to him for his thoughts. I never posted them here as Gene is a little blunt. The short of it is that 4E gunners were not aces ... the shooting solutions were far more difficult than the fighter pilots ... the 4E gunners were far more exposed and took heavy losses. Remember, fighter pilot had an engine block between him and what he shot at. 4E gunners had aluminum or glass. Gene survived his 20 missions. Belly gunners were one of the higher casualty positions in the B24 ...


quote:

Obvert,

I remember a discussion on this subject a long time ago (2011 or something) but for the life of me can't find the thread.. I did find this in the patch notes as change 5.19:

"Facing of forward armament of all multi-engined level bombers set to Front"

That already has reduced the accuracy (used to be centerline guns). I remember attack bombers being way more effective vs fighters compared to your example.

Is it possible for you to go back to the combat replay and check on attack vectors? Fighters tend to attack level bombers in formation from low/high front or low/high rear with a few side attacks mixed in. Attacking 32 attack bombers (misidentified as level bombers) could lead to issues for the fighters.

If I was a fighter leader I would try to make a side attack on these monsters...


Thanks for the explanations and suggestions guys. I love it when a question like this is answered with the context of previous discussions, some tactical advice and a real historical perspective. That combination makes me both curious to read more about the experiences of those guys running the guns but also to read back into the discussions on the forum. I'll do a search sometime this weekend and if I find the threads I'll post a link here as well.

I guess if it has been looked at previously and it was determined this was an issue, but there was no easy compromise other than modifying the accuracy of the guns, then I'll have to live with it for now. I do remember some of the attacks being from the front, but I also sped up the replay. I'lll have to watch it again and get a better idea of where they were coming in from. I know one pilot rammed a bomber for the emperor so I assume he was a frontal attack.

My main line of questioning hasn't been an issue with the fact that Allied bombers wipe out interceptors, but the manner in which these less defended planes actually performed better than many models that have 3-4 times the defensive armament. So this gets to the point a bit. I also just wanted to clarify if all of the guns of every bomber are taken into account for each attack. Maybe I just got unlucky that these guys all decided on frontal attack runs. I'll make some notes as I watch the next time and figure this out. As usual it's the time that is keeping me from knowing more already.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 6
RE: B-25-D1 - 2/2/2013 10:04:43 AM   
inqistor


Posts: 1338
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
I remember that Nemo cut 4Es MGs accuracy into half TWICE, and have not observed much difference in A2A combat. He also reduced range of them, and this also did not changed much.

So you either need to lower damages for those forward MGs (reducing penetration can also work against armored fighters), or change them into other devices (like bombs), so they will not be used in A2A at all.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7
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