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Lack of arments

 
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Lack of arments - 1/28/2013 5:27:34 AM   
Von Weber

 

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Tell anyone please, how arment points and size of an Army(Red Army)could be correlated? what else can affect on arments shortage? Does it happen only in 1941 when facs evacuated or it could happen in late war too, when soviet army grows increasingly and have to do offensive operations?
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RE: Lack of arments - 1/28/2013 9:53:16 AM   
delatbabel


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You will have an armaments shortage in late 41. Provided you pull out enough factories you should be fine after that. There will be a limit on the number of artillery divs you can buy but later in the war that will open up a bit too. Your real limiting factor until late in the war will be vehicles and APs.

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/29/2013 12:15:43 AM   
turtlefang

 

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I agree with the above comments. But I would add that you can also get an armament crunch in 42 as the Soviets reorganized thier rifle squads a couple of times. I usually have some problems just after the first blizzard and in the summer of 42. So just understand it will happen again as the Soviets organize and re-organize and finally settle on an organization.

After than, you will start seeing some serious growth in arms and shouldn't have much of an issue.

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/29/2013 2:17:56 AM   
Michael T


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Lots of attacking burns ammo and for each ammo point generated 1 Arm point is used if I understand the rules correctly. So does this mean if 20,000 supply points are converted to ammo then 20,000 ARM points are used?

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/29/2013 12:39:05 PM   
Von Weber

 

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quote:

There will be a limit on the number of artillery divs you can buy

Do you mean I'd have limitations in buying art divs by the rules or just because of lack of arments?
quote:

Lots of attacking burns ammo and for each ammo point generated 1 Arm point is used if I understand the rules correctly. So does this mean if 20,000 supply points are converted to ammo then 20,000 ARM points are used?

You mean when i read in Event log f.e. 12393 tonns of ammo delivered to front units does it mean that those 12393 tonns are supply or arment points?

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/29/2013 4:23:24 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Do you mean I'd have limitations in buying art divs by the rules or just because of lack of arments?


He'll be able to buy them, it's just that starved of armaments the AI production routine will be slow to fill them (rifle div's, etc. also have arty tubes in their TOEs)

It's also not real clear how the AI prioritizes the automatically produced equipment. I've read complaints in the past that some things like Hvy Rocket units take a long time to fill because the AI produces those specific pieces slowly. How much that gripe could be attributed to a person scraping the bottom of the barrel in armaments points already I don't know, like I said this complaint was hearsay, and there may have been factors additional factors in play.

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/29/2013 5:55:21 PM   
turtlefang

 

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You buy troop "shells" with admin points. Then those shells have to fill out with items from your equipment inventory that your arm pts produce. So you will always be able to buy the shells (or nearly always) if you have the admin points. If your short of arm pts, it might take a long time to fill them out to strength.

As far as the rocket artillery went, that was (and still maybe) a bug for the first three rocket divisions produced. After that, they filled out normally. Don't know if that has been corrected in the last update.

Generally, you need to plan your army and build some units that will prime the production pipeline. For instances, rocket art needs rocket launchers so buy 2 or 3 rocket BG/BT early to some in production. This will cut down on the wait if its a new unit and a new equipment type. It's a waste but it works.

The other unit that wasn't filling out was the PVO AAA units. I think I saw a message that that had been corrected.

Some units you don't have to worry about. Anything required in an infantry division (for example, 76mm Guns), tank BGs/Corps or support units that you use. These will get "primed". Its the stuff that doesn't appear in what you build.

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/29/2013 8:54:20 PM   
Michael T


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quote:

You mean when i read in Event log f.e. 12393 tonns of ammo delivered to front units does it mean that those 12393 tonns are supply or arment points?


Yes.

21.1.3

For each ton of supplies used for ammunition (20.3.2) one armament point is expended.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 1/29/2013 8:59:42 PM >


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RE: Lack of arments - 1/29/2013 9:19:13 PM   
hfarrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Do you mean I'd have limitations in buying art divs by the rules or just because of lack of arments?


He'll be able to buy them, it's just that starved of armaments the AI production routine will be slow to fill them (rifle div's, etc. also have arty tubes in their TOEs)

It's also not real clear how the AI prioritizes the automatically produced equipment. I've read complaints in the past that some things like Hvy Rocket units take a long time to fill because the AI produces those specific pieces slowly. How much that gripe could be attributed to a person scraping the bottom of the barrel in armaments points already I don't know, like I said this complaint was hearsay, and there may have been factors additional factors in play.


I can testify that playing under the latest patch Hvy Rockets are still quite slow - my first few divisions filled out nicely relatively quickly but the ones after that have been a problem, compounded by the fact that new HQs automatically come with rocket battalions attached, requiring disbands if you want to get your divisions to fill out at all. I have almost a million arms in the pool so that is no issue. They are clearly much slower than regular artillery for whatever reason - one thing I could think of is that they require trucks...do those somehow go into the formulation and slow it down?

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/30/2013 2:05:01 AM   
Von Weber

 

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quote:

They are clearly much slower than regular artillery for whatever reason - one thing I could think of is that they require trucks...

Nice question.So by the same reason trucks starvation will be reflected at any building combat unit, cause they all require trucks for own use.Is it right?

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/30/2013 3:42:47 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

They are clearly much slower than regular artillery for whatever reason - one thing I could think of is that they require trucks...do those somehow go into the formulation and slow it down?


What does your truck pool look like? Are you above or below need?
We're just kind of shooting in the dark with no clue how production is prioritized. If it is going by units with the item it may 'see' 20 rocket units and 400 units that need the 76mm and devote resources proportionally.
With all those armaments do you see large pools of (in production) equipment?

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/30/2013 4:06:19 AM   
hfarrish


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Truck pools are below need albeit improving to 129 (139) last turn. Ive had two rocket divisions sitting on refit for two months and still only at 50pct TOE, and rockets far less percentage wise.

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/30/2013 8:36:43 AM   
sillyflower


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I'm at dec '42 with 8 rkt xx lagging behind on hvy launchers even though I disbanded all the wretched hvy rkt regts you get with new HQs. Same problem with the heavy arty in '42 arty divs.

I do have a 15k or so truck shortage but the light rockets are produced at almost 1000 per turn if they are needed. About 700k arms points in pool and 1M men so they aren't the blockage

Some shortages still with the usual suspects (mgs AT guns and lt mortars) but much less of a problem than in used to be.

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/30/2013 9:23:28 AM   
cpt flam


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Hi sillyflower
rather then disband the hvy rck launcher why don't you merge them
cost would be the same but possibility to reinforce a loneunit

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/30/2013 12:54:49 PM   
morvael


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First I had armaments shortage, then manpower shortage, now vehicle shortage. The first two ended in Spring'42, the third happened in Autumn'42 (one can't build as many Tank and Mech corps as one would like).

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/30/2013 1:26:28 PM   
turtlefang

 

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The vehicle shortage in late 42 is very common if your building when artillery division start being built. Add in raising a few mech corps which are truck hogs. If I remember right, about 15K trucks per Corps.

In 42, that's a lot of turns of vehicle production. It gets better in 43 when Lend Lease goes to 6K per turn.

Just wondering, how many vehicle factories did you lose - if any? I'm trying to get feel for losses by other players to gauge my own success (or, more likely, failures).

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/30/2013 1:38:55 PM   
morvael


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About 2700 trucks per mech corps. But that's still a lot comparing to 1500 per Tank Corps. Army HQ's also take a significant number (700).

From the start I knew the vehicle factories are going to be important, so I tried to evacuate them with the same priority as ARM factories. However, I didn't know that ZOC can prevent evacuation (even across large river), so by mistake I lost the factories in Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye to the Axis "for free". I have 140 Vehicle factories right now (Oct 1st, 42), 189 HI and 329 ARM. At start there is 140 VEH, 236 HI and 370 ARM. It seems I have not lost any Vehicle factories, 47 HI (20%) and 41 ARM (11%) - half (20) lost ARM comes from those 2 cities I thought I had time to evac. All in all I was quite happy with the evac results (except this one case). It's good to have all VEH factories now that I see they are the real bottleneck - my vehicle status is 134K (123K) with 212K in units and 28K in repair. Meanwhile there is 180K ARM and 841K manpower in the pool.

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/30/2013 1:49:36 PM   
morvael


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Vehicle evolution:

Sep 4th 1941: in units 137K, in pool 241K, required for supplies 106K
Nov 6th 1941: in units 133K, in pool 238K, required for supplies 95K
Jan 1st 1942: in units 142K, in pool 204K, required for supplies 138K
Mar 5th 1942: in unitsh 157K, in pool 182K, required for supplies 130K
Jun 4th 1942: in units 180K, in pool 156K, required for supplies 124K
Sep 10th 1942: in units 205K, in pool 141K, required for supplies 132K
Oct 1st 1942: in units 212K, in pool 134K, required for supplies 123K

As can be seen the overall number of trucks is shrinking (378K to 346K), so production & LL is not enough to offset lost trucks (for now).

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/30/2013 2:33:28 PM   
hfarrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

The vehicle shortage in late 42 is very common if your building when artillery division start being built. Add in raising a few mech corps which are truck hogs. If I remember right, about 15K trucks per Corps.

In 42, that's a lot of turns of vehicle production. It gets better in 43 when Lend Lease goes to 6K per turn.

Just wondering, how many vehicle factories did you lose - if any? I'm trying to get feel for losses by other players to gauge my own success (or, more likely, failures).


As noted, I am at 129 (139) in July '43 and did not lose any vehicle factories...but also started building extra tank and mech corps a month or so ago (prior to this I probably had about 10-15 tank corps and no mech corps other than one that was cut off and killed) which added to need, otherwise I would be above at this point. The worst period was blizzard of '42, since I was on the offense and I take it truck demand in blizzard is higher anyway...significant deficit throughout. It has been steadily recovering ever since.

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RE: Lack of arments - 1/31/2013 5:14:07 AM   
turtlefang

 

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There was a discussion a while back where Flav, Michael T, Walloc and several other noted folks participated regarding trucks and truck problems.

That group, led by some analysis that Walloc did, came to the following conclusions:

- The Soviet will see a surge in trucks and actually be in good shape if the Soviet can avoid large losses due to encirclements in 41

- A single vehicle factory point will produce 6-8,000 trucks over the game assuming evacuations and then restarting once. So that 20 pts factory in Karkov(I think) makes 120,000 vehicles over the game. That's close to all the trucks you may need for all your Tank Corps in the game. From one place. Now, trucks just got a lot more interesting, didn't it? And vehicle factories a lot more important.

- The first blizzard, if the Soviet's aggressive, will cost a lot of lost trucks. The surge back over the destroyed rail lines is going to cost a lot of vehicles in carry supplies to the troops. Based on personal experience, this is an understatement as you can really burn through them if your not careful. And also in the Spring if those rr aren't repaired.

- The Soviet has to assume his truck situation will, at best, remain stable in 42; the pool's not going to increase much if at all. Your troop levels will increase at about what your truck pool should increase in 42. So the trucks get sucked into those units. And supply those units. Which means that your not going to have much to build those tanks corps, mech corps and art div - plus any Inf Corp you build. All will stress your truck situation. Of course, the good thing is that if its stressed, your probably going to survive and emerge with Soviet 2.0 army at some point.

The other thing to remember is that the Soviet supply situation can really be compounded by a lack of trucks to carry the supplies. With a -2 in 41 and a -1 in 42, any truck shortage can impact unit supply levels much more than just the shortage. And its a cycle. The fewer supplies in your units, the more supplies your trucks will try to carry to them; the more they carry, the more that breaks or you lose to the supply situation. If your not careful, you can get behind this power curve as the number of units increase but your truck pool is getting smaller. So shorten the supply lines to those rail lines ASAP. Shorter lines to rr = more trucks.

- Its 43 the LL and the factory multiple starts (evac start coming back on line at full value) to get better for the Soviets. So big truck hogs like Mech Corp or Art Div can can finally be supported without destroying your supply system.

- By 44, you should be able to do anything you want to without concern regarding the truck situation.

So having truck issues in 42 is the norm. If you can make sure the supply required vs the number of trucks in the pool are too far out of balance, your in good shape. But build smart and careful because a few big units can really hurt.

And one last point regarding Tank/Mech Corps. These actually cost you 600 trucks. Each tank X already has 300 trucks (at full strenght) in the unit and you have to use three of these to create a Tank Corps. So the net cost is 600 trucks. 1500 required in the Tank Corps less the 900 in the three tank X= 600 net.

Mech Corp are an out and out 2700 trucks out of the pool. You have to build the mech X as you don't get these for free via reinforcements. Which is why two or three of these big fellows can really take a bite out of your truck pool in 42.

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RE: Lack of arments - 2/1/2013 7:15:15 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpt flam

Hi sillyflower
rather then disband the hvy rck launcher why don't you merge them
cost would be the same but possibility to reinforce a loneunit


I don't think you can merge rkt regts into arty divs, but that's a good idea if it can be done.

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RE: Lack of arments - 2/1/2013 8:00:05 AM   
Von Weber

 

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Morvael you put a very nice table of vehicle evolution. Could you tell yet what's your army size according to the table.
quote:

- The Soviet will see a surge in trucks and actually be in good shape if the Soviet can avoid large losses due to encirclements in 41
How much losses should be taken by the soviet side in 1941 to avoid trucks losses?
And all the units that come by reinforcements depleted and the recovered, destroyed prior to November 1941 also need to be filled with trucks?

< Message edited by Von Weber -- 2/1/2013 8:17:39 AM >

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RE: Lack of arments - 2/1/2013 9:41:06 AM   
morvael


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men / guns / afvs / planes
Sep 4th 1941: 4 888 966, 43 252, 3 692, 7 109
Nov 6th 1941: 5 125 711, 45 706, 3 021, 7 275
Jan 1st 1942: 5 444 269, 57 633, 3 675, 7 938
Mar 5th 1942: 6 450 034, 73 295, 5 683, 8 340
Jun 4th 1942: 7 710 696, 87 810, 7 586, 9 201
Sep 10th 1942: 7 867 513, 95 487, 9 168, 10 477
Oct 1st 1942: 7 807 781, 96 428, 9 546, 10 571

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RE: Lack of arments - 2/1/2013 10:17:20 AM   
Michael T


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Blizzard and mud will eat your trucks. But don't forget to look at your repair pool. You will probably have a lot in there. Once the weather gets better they come back in big chuncks, 20% per turn. I did a rather lengthy analysis/test on trucks and it is a critical area. I monitor my truck situation every turn.

All things being equal if you lose 1 truck in clear weather damaged/destroyed running supply you can expect to lose 3 in mud, 2 in snow and a whopping 5 in blizzard.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 2/1/2013 10:20:28 AM >


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RE: Lack of arments - 2/1/2013 1:17:10 PM   
turtlefang

 

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There is no "good" answer to this question. The larger the Soviet Army, the more trucks it needs. The smaller the army, the less trucks.

Combat losses, rather than supply losses, happens and you can't avoid it. If the unit is not isolated, then some of your losses are damaged rather than lost. This will come back. If your isolated, all losses are for good. And if a unit shatters or surrenders, then you loss all the verhicles attached to it. And each time you have a HQ displaced due to being "over run", you also loss vehicles.

So the point is that loss as few troops when isolated as possible as these losses will accelerate your truck losses.

In 41, you can get a feeling of trucks not being that important. This happens as the Soviet's convert vehicles from civilian use to military use. I don't remember the exact numbers, but you get 100,000+ trucks this way in 41 - then the conversions stop and you have to rely on production.

Once the conversion stop, you have a relatively low production rate with little lend lease support until 43 when LL vehicles go up.

As far as reinforcement go, any unit that arrives at full strength don't need trucks. But all the units you build, or come back after destroyed, or enter as reinforcements at below full strenght - you have to supply the trucks to build the units out. And most reinforcements arrive as shells so yes, they will require trucks.

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RE: Lack of arments - 2/2/2013 6:37:21 AM   
SBD

 

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Very useful info.

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RE: Lack of arments - 2/2/2013 1:04:44 PM   
Von Weber

 

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Morvael, thanks for info about quantity of Red Army.
Thanks everyone to share this valuable information.I appreciate all experience of yours

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RE: Lack of arments - 2/2/2013 1:20:41 PM   
morvael


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Please note that each game is unique. For example I am playing very defensively and my opponent is cautious, therefore at the end of the '42 Summer campaign the Axis army is the largest (in men and guns) in the entire campaign, rather than being spent and overstretched.

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RE: Lack of arments - 2/3/2013 8:00:46 AM   
cpt flam


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as you there is no need to attack without success
your def being 25+ in each hex need full assault each time
few INF really useful, work must be made by panzer/moto
hungary & rumania hold a part of the front
italian are too scrappy, keeping fort maintenance

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RE: Lack of arments - 2/3/2013 10:05:00 AM   
Von Weber

 

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quote:

With a -2 in 41 and a -1 in 42, any truck shortage can impact unit supply levels much more than just the shortage.
Turtlefang, I've just read your post one more time and can not understand what are these -2 -1 shortages mean. Could you explain please?
quote:

And each time you have a HQ displaced due to being "over run", you also loss vehicles.
The second: Does it mean that HQ will loose all the trucks or only damaged ones?

< Message edited by Von Weber -- 2/3/2013 10:23:38 AM >

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