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lincoln - 1/27/2013 9:55:55 PM   
barkorn45

 

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I know this will be troubling to some and it will probably be stopped but i must give my educated opinion.
he was no hero imo but the most dangerous dicta...em president we've ever had.
secesion was a right in THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that is how it is really meant to be phrased.
hell we seceded from the british empire why would the framers condemn it?
look up the definition of state it basically means a country
Chris Matthews was right lincoln proved secesion was illegal,[but he did'nt add] at the cost of 600.000 lives.
lets try to leave slavery out of the equation was'nt it lincoln that said if he could save the
union by freeing all the slaves he would or if he freed none of them to save the union he would??
he suspended habeous corpus one of the basic unalienable rights we possess as humans!
he instituded conscription which IS unconstitutional but hell its just a piece of paper which is "sometimes wrong"[john kerry]
lets get another thing straight it was not a "rebellion"the southern countries did'nt try to overthrow
the federal gov.they chose to leave it so they were not "rebels"as also were the founders not technicaly rebels.
the southern states lawfully and peacfully left the union and were at peace with the usa till lincoln authorized the reinforcment
and resupply of a usa fort in the port of,at that time foreign country south carolina
i have to go now and continue setting up my first turn in witp so you can start calling me a racist now i will return
but try to remember"facts are dangerous things"can
t remember which founder said that but try to keep responces factual and less emotive plz



Post #: 1
RE: lincoln - 1/27/2013 10:15:40 PM   
parusski


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From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

I know this will be troubling to some and it will probably be stopped but i must give my educated opinion.
he was no hero imo but the most dangerous dicta...em president we've ever had.
secesion was a right in THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that is how it is really meant to be phrased.
hell we seceded from the british empire why would the framers condemn it?
look up the definition of state it basically means a country
Chris Matthews was right lincoln proved secesion was illegal,[but he did'nt add] at the cost of 600.000 lives.
lets try to leave slavery out of the equation was'nt it lincoln that said if he could save the
union by freeing all the slaves he would or if he freed none of them to save the union he would??
he suspended habeous corpus one of the basic unalienable rights we possess as humans!
he instituded conscription which IS unconstitutional but hell its just a piece of paper which is "sometimes wrong"[john kerry]
lets get another thing straight it was not a "rebellion"the southern countries did'nt try to overthrow
the federal gov.they chose to leave it so they were not "rebels"as also were the founders not technicaly rebels.
the southern states lawfully and peacfully left the union and were at peace with the usa till lincoln authorized the reinforcment
and resupply of a usa fort in the port of,at that time foreign country south carolina
i have to go now and continue setting up my first turn in witp so you can start calling me a racist now i will return
but try to remember"facts are dangerous things"can
t remember which founder said that but try to keep responces factual and less emotive plz






I can't agree with you on this one. Abraham Lincoln underwent a tremendous transformation during the tragic years of his presidency. The Emancipation Proclamation repudiated all of Lincoln's previous thoughts about slavery. At different times Lincoln theorized about sending slaves to Liberia and gradual emaciation with compensation for slave owners. As the war progressed the issue of slavery hit the national agenda, and Lincoln realized his decision on the issue had to be one of freedom-here.

Lincoln made several decisions that many consider tyrannical. Suspension of habeas corpus by executive order. Emancipation of the slaves by executive order. Yes these are shocking but as Lincoln said "I had to do something to hold the country together. I took action when I did and gave the PEOPLE time to judge me. They re-elected me, so they approved of my decisions." I concur. Of course today I can't abide a president suspending rights, but Lincoln faced a very unique problem-Civil War and possible dissolution of the great experiment, and all his decisions worked in the end. The country was saved, habeaus corpus reinstated and slavery abolished. If Lincoln had lived I really believe civil rights for black Americans would have arrived much, much sooner.

One thing I loved about the movie Lincoln is the revelation to a huge number of movie goers that the Republican party supported the 13th amendment while the Democrats, to a man, opposed it. Lincoln engaged in a lot of back room deals to get enough Democrats to insure passage of the amendment.

In the end history has judged Lincoln to be the greatest President, and of the the great leaders, of history. I agree.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to barkorn45)
Post #: 2
RE: lincoln - 1/27/2013 10:55:04 PM   
barkorn45

 

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so do you think that the southern countries did not have the right of secession?
as i posted earlier on another post when patrick henry[to the historically challenged he was a major founding father[an old[well not so old]fuddie duddie white man] was asked at the meeting to ratify the const.by the gov of va
if they could exit the union if they chose to in the future and was told YES but be warned that some "future pres.may invade your COUNTRY and burn your homes"
means nothing that lincoln dispoticaly chose to force the confederation of southern states back into unconstitutionaly rejoining THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
and into slavery to the burgeoning federal gov that lincoln started and conyinues to today.
for he is the father of BIG GOVERNMENT that we little r republicans rail against

< Message edited by barkorn45 -- 1/27/2013 10:59:17 PM >

(in reply to parusski)
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RE: lincoln - 1/27/2013 11:10:01 PM   
barkorn45

 

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we should also be very wary of the term PRECEDENT lincoln did it at a time of so called crisis whats to stop a future lincoln raising the fact that PRECEDENT has been established in future decisions
maybe i'm just an alarmist but **** happens

(in reply to barkorn45)
Post #: 4
RE: lincoln - 1/27/2013 11:23:32 PM   
barkorn45

 

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another thing i find interesting is that lincoln entered the election knowing that the southern states proclaimed that if he won
the election there was the threat of secession but he ran anyway with his views[stated above] on slavery that a later TRANSFORMATION converted him to abolition

(in reply to barkorn45)
Post #: 5
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 2:19:43 AM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

Chris Matthews was right lincoln proved secesion was illegal,

Matthews is never right, secession is not illegal & Lincoln can clean my latrines with a toothpick for the next hundred years.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to barkorn45)
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RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 3:18:33 AM   
Sarge


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"Savior of the Union"………

Suspended the Constitution along with the Bill Of Rights
Launched a military invasion without Congress thumbs up
Interfered with elections using federal troops
Imprisoned newspaper publishers , confiscated opposing vocal newspapers printing presses
Operated extermination camps and declared marshall law in the surrounding city’s
Had elected State representatives illegally imprisoned without charges
Deported a member of Congress after he dared criticized his unconstitutional behavior
Imprisoned Sate legislators to prevent them from voting to secede

Not to mention expended 700,00 lives to laid siege to American city’s full of fellow citizens forcefully imposing his definition of the Republic ..............an american hero

(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 7
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 7:58:08 AM   
warspite1


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Gents

If this is kept civil, I will - an an "outsider" - be really interested to hear American views on this subject. I know very little about the US Civil War - other than some of the battles - and am keen to understand more about the political situation at the time.

My initial thoughts - based purely on (very) high level knowledge is:

Lincoln was fundamentally a good man, who no doubt had to make some difficult decisions, but was able to keep the USA together - a USA that became the leader of the free world and helped save Europe from itself twice (albeit she was a tad late for the parties ) and from the communist menace.

Are some people saying that they would rather the south have been allowed to leave the union? If so, what would the countries - USA and CSA? look like today. How would history have been affected?


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/28/2013 8:26:29 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




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RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 9:40:50 AM   
ilovestrategy


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He did what he had to do. It's so easy to condemn him now but we were not around back then. He had some hard decisions to make and he made them. 1861 was not the time to walk back and forth wondering what to do.

For me, I'm glad that he made the decisions that he did. He kept this country united.

_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

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RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 11:26:37 AM   
jamesm

 

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Imagine how WW2 would have gone without a united US? Scary thought.

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RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 11:42:10 AM   
SLAAKMAN


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Sarge,
quote:

"Savior of the Union"………

Suspended the Constitution along with the Bill Of Rights
Launched a military invasion without Congress thumbs up
Interfered with elections using federal troops
Imprisoned newspaper publishers , confiscated opposing vocal newspapers printing presses
Operated extermination camps and declared marshall law in the surrounding city’s
Had elected State representatives illegally imprisoned without charges
Deported a member of Congress after he dared criticized his unconstitutional behavior
Imprisoned Sate legislators to prevent them from voting to secede

Not to mention expended 700,00 lives to laid siege to American city’s full of fellow citizens forcefully imposing his definition of the Republic ..............an american hero



quote:

Imagine how WW2 would have gone without a united US? Scary thought.

Maybe there wouldve been no WWII. The Entente might have lost WWI and the South wouldve been a Superpower today with myself in charge! Yeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaa!!!


quote:

For me, I'm glad that he made the decisions that he did. He kept this country united.

"United" with Ocommie in charge? Is this supposed to be a good thing??


_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to jamesm)
Post #: 11
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 11:46:06 AM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
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Would the USA and CSA have fought themselves? What about Mexico? Tons of questions/possibles. Has anyone written a decent book on the subject?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to jamesm)
Post #: 12
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 11:47:22 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 17582
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

quote:

Imagine how WW2 would have gone without a united US? Scary thought.

Maybe there wouldve been no WWII. The Entente might have lost WWI and the South wouldve been a Superpower today with myself in charge! Yeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaa!!!


warspite1

Thank God for Abraham Lincoln

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 13
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 12:47:01 PM   
wodin


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I think if a State or bunch of States wanted to leave the Union they should have been and still should be allowed too.

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Post #: 14
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 3:40:07 PM   
parusski


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From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

He did what he had to do. It's so easy to condemn him now but we were not around back then. He had some hard decisions to make and he made them. 1861 was not the time to walk back and forth wondering what to do.

For me, I'm glad that he made the decisions that he did. He kept this country united.


Amen ilovestrategy. If secession had succeded it is likely that the Confederacy would have broken up too. The Jeferson governments decisions(taxes and the draft, among others) made many southerners angry, with threats of secession from the Confederacy. America would have ended up a Balkanized area. I can't imagine that my fellow Matrix members really would prefer that this great nation, warts and all, would have broken apart.

Remember, America is a force for good. Churchill got it right when he said "The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative."

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to ilovestrategy)
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RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 3:42:57 PM   
Dave Briggs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think if a State or bunch of States wanted to leave the Union they should have been and still should be allowed too.

Does that go for Ireland and Scotland too?

_____________________________

“You're only young once but you can be immature for as long as you want”

(in reply to wodin)
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RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 3:54:18 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 17582
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think if a State or bunch of States wanted to leave the Union they should have been and still should be allowed too.

Does that go for Ireland and Scotland too?
warspite1

Yes exactly - Southern Ireland has gone and Scotland gets to vote soon.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Dave Briggs)
Post #: 17
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 4:33:00 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think if a State or bunch of States wanted to leave the Union they should have been and still should be allowed too.

Does that go for Ireland and Scotland too?



Yes and I don't blame them..unlike Americans and patriotism, English have very little. Alot think the place is a sh1thole and would get out at the first opportunity.

< Message edited by wodin -- 1/28/2013 4:35:49 PM >


_____________________________

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https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


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Post #: 18
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 4:51:09 PM   
vonRocko

 

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My 2 cents: Lincoln was a Bum!

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RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 4:55:49 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 17582
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Gents

If this is kept civil, I will - an an "outsider" - be really interested to hear American views on this subject. I know very little about the US Civil War - other than some of the battles - and am keen to understand more about the political situation at the time.

My initial thoughts - based purely on (very) high level knowledge is:

Lincoln was fundamentally a good man, who no doubt had to make some difficult decisions, but was able to keep the USA together - a USA that became the leader of the free world and helped save Europe from itself twice (albeit she was a tad late for the parties ) and from the communist menace.

Are some people saying that they would rather the south have been allowed to leave the union? If so, what would the countries - USA and CSA? look like today. How would history have been affected?

warspite1

Anyone have a view re the questions I raised please?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 20
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 6:18:56 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Gents

If this is kept civil, I will - an an "outsider" - be really interested to hear American views on this subject. I know very little about the US Civil War - other than some of the battles - and am keen to understand more about the political situation at the time.

My initial thoughts - based purely on (very) high level knowledge is:

Lincoln was fundamentally a good man, who no doubt had to make some difficult decisions, but was able to keep the USA together - a USA that became the leader of the free world and helped save Europe from itself twice (albeit she was a tad late for the parties ) and from the communist menace.

Are some people saying that they would rather the south have been allowed to leave the union? If so, what would the countries - USA and CSA? look like today. How would history have been affected?

warspite1

Anyone have a view re the questions I raised please?



Well I did state earlier that if secession had succeeded America would have been Balkanized. The US would have crumbled into mini-nations, with northern and southern states continuing to seceded anytime they disagreed with the federal governments.

Ironically Lincoln did encourage and accept the secession of West Virginia from Virginia. Despite this blatant hypocrisy I still have great admiration for Lincoln.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 21
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 7:13:38 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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Warspite1
quote:

Would the USA and CSA have fought themselves? What about Mexico? Tons of questions/possibles. Has anyone written a decent book on the subject?

There have been books on this from one degree to another but all you need to really know is that one day I will seize power and when I do, there will be the Comfy Chair to pay!

quote:

warspite1

Thank God for Abraham Lincoln

His obstructionism was only a temporary setback. Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your friends, in the Western Hemisphere are walking into a trap, as is your British fleet. It was *I* who allowed the Allies to know the location of the ABM shield. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. Oh, I'm afraid the Iron Dome shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 22
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 7:44:37 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

Warspite1
quote:

Would the USA and CSA have fought themselves? What about Mexico? Tons of questions/possibles. Has anyone written a decent book on the subject?

There have been books on this from one degree to another but all you need to really know is that one day I will seize power and when I do, there will be the Comfy Chair to pay!

quote:

warspite1

Thank God for Abraham Lincoln

His obstructionism was only a temporary setback. Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your friends, in the Western Hemisphere are walking into a trap, as is your British fleet. It was *I* who allowed the Allies to know the location of the ABM shield. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. Oh, I'm afraid the Iron Dome shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive.







You really must remember to take your meds.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 23
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 10:17:12 PM   
Sarge


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“Preserved The Union”

Suggest secession justified war would be like saying that the US withdrawing from the UN would be an act of war , in 1861 no law existed in terms of prohibiting secession………..none

Lincoln clearly committed treason according to his oath and the limits the architects of the Republic put of the office , if a modern President sent the military door to door to confiscate weapons as Lincoln did there be a revolt, not to mention the endless list of other unconstitutional crimes he imposed on citizens. ……there was a reason the Republic was drawn up as “These” United States and not “The” United States which is becoming more obvious and increasingly relevant every day.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 24
RE: lincoln - 1/28/2013 11:46:59 PM   
parusski


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From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

“Preserved The Union”

Suggest secession justified war would be like saying that the US withdrawing from the UN would be an act of war , in 1861 no law existed in terms of prohibiting secession………..none

Lincoln clearly committed treason according to his oath and the limits the architects of the Republic put of the office , if a modern President sent the military door to door to confiscate weapons as Lincoln did there be a revolt, not to mention the endless list of other unconstitutional crimes he imposed on citizens. ……there was a reason the Republic was drawn up as “These” United States and not “The” United States which is becoming more obvious and increasingly relevant every day.



Well I can't win you over on that line of thinking.

So would be happier if there were a dozen or so little Amerikas carved out of the USA??

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 25
RE: lincoln - 1/29/2013 12:19:40 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Gents

If this is kept civil, I will - an an "outsider" - be really interested to hear American views on this subject. I know very little about the US Civil War ...


Didn't Europe have officers and ambassadors observing that conflict for both its military and political edification?

Didn't one such Prussian officer call the American Civil War a riot between two opposing rabbles, or words to that efffect?

_____________________________

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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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Post #: 26
RE: lincoln - 1/29/2013 12:26:06 AM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
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From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Gents

If this is kept civil, I will - an an "outsider" - be really interested to hear American views on this subject. I know very little about the US Civil War ...


Didn't Europe have officers and ambassadors observing that conflict for both its military and political edification?

Didn't one such Prussian officer call the American Civil War a riot between two opposing rabbles, or words to that efffect?


Something like that



_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 27
RE: lincoln - 1/29/2013 12:35:33 AM   
H Gilmer

 

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quote:

One thing I loved about the movie Lincoln is the revelation to a huge number of movie goers that the Republican party supported the 13th amendment while the Democrats, to a man, opposed it. Lincoln engaged in a lot of back room deals to get enough Democrats to insure passage of the amendment.


There are a lot of misconceptions about American history and what Republicans supported and what Democrats supported.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 28
RE: lincoln - 1/29/2013 12:57:11 AM   
rogo727


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My two cents....or three....
Al was simply the best president we have had or will ever have. Most Americans don't understand that the Republican Party back then was and is more like the Democratic Party today. He did what he had to do to save the union. Please make no mistake. The ONLY reason for the civil war was slavery and I love how the OP TRIED TO DANCE HIS WAY OUT OF THAT FACT. Confused? Watch Gettysburg . Slavery was unconstitutional ....so the right to succeed based on that fact only was unconstitutional .

_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to H Gilmer)
Post #: 29
RE: lincoln - 1/29/2013 1:00:27 AM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2808
Joined: 7/24/2002
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quote:

So would be happier if there were a dozen or so little Amerikas carved out of the USA??

Absolutely!! No Obamacrap, no insurance companies, labor unions, feminists, Progressives, Socialists, Freemasons, Communists, Democrats, Marxists of any kind, Cholo gangbangers, Rockefellers, or Goldman Sachs or George Soros agents allowed in my turf!


_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to barkorn45)
Post #: 30
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