Matrix Games Forums

Space Program Manager Launch Contest Announced!Battle Academy 2 is out now on iPad!A closer look at rockets in Space Program ManagerDeal of the Week - Pride of NationsA new update for Piercing Fortress EuropaNew screenshots for War in the West!Pike & Shot is now available!Server Maintenance Battle Academy 2 gets updated!Deal of the Week: Advanced Tactics Gold
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Does anyone know how refit really works?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Does anyone know how refit really works? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/27/2013 8:58:42 PM   
AFV


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline
From the manual:
All ground units in refit mode will have the first opportunity to receive replacements during the refit sub-segment. Refit mode allows the player to set up two groups of units, those that will receive replacements first, and those that will receive replacements only after those in the refit group have received as much as they can get given their distance from the nearest railhead.

With that said, there clearly are other factors, not documented going on with refit. I say this because I watch units that are pretty much in the same state (distance from railhead, TOE, C&C, etc) get vastly different refit amounts. (yes, I have actually tracked it on a unit by unit basis)

1) Is there a leader check, and if so, what attribute is used?
2) Is there some priority established, like lower TOE units are considered in the front of the line?
3) Is there just a random number used (after all the distance to railhead is factored in) to determine the amount a unit receives?

To be clear, I am not complaining. I am just trying to understand the mechanics of refit.

Any comments?



< Message edited by AFV -- 1/27/2013 8:59:35 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/27/2013 9:22:11 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1966
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: online
One additional piece of information from the updated manual:

Refitting units next to enemy hexes have a 25% chance of getting more replacements than if they weren't on refit, but the exact amount of the additional replacements will vary greatly depending on the distance from the railhead.

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 2
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/28/2013 12:43:37 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6044
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Good question of which more info would be great.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 3
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/30/2013 1:54:53 AM   
AFV


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline
Ok how about anyone's opinions based on results they have seen in game? Ideas? Hypothesis? Walloc? (lol)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 4
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/30/2013 4:15:16 AM   
turtlefang

 

Posts: 333
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline
I ran a lot of test a while back but finally gave up as I couldn't come up a solid set of factors that I felt really explain things.

For what I can tell, and I'm fairly confident about the following:

1) Being on a railroad and within five or less hexes of your HQ seems to give the best results.
2) Being on a railroad is better than not being on railroad OR being off a railroad and within five hexes of your HQ.
3) The closer you are to a railroad, the better off you, period.
4) Being closer to a supply source is better than being further away.
5) The rules provide for a 25% bonus being next to the enemy. I really couldn't tell if this was 25% or not due to attrition. However, there seems to be some benefit
6) I could not detect any impact of a leadership die roll having an impact.
7) However, a random factor of some type is applied to all refits.

Here are somethings that I suspect but I could never get a definite read on it:

1) Some type of prioritization system is used that seems to be based on the above criteria in who gets first replacements.

2) Once the prioritization system is determined, everyone gets XX number of replacements. This seems to be about 5% as a base rate. So, for example, let's call it 500 men.

3) For each unit, this 500 is adjusted up or down based on the seven factors above. For example (and I don't know if these are right, I'm just making this up as an example), an infantry division, in good supply, on a functioning railhead would get 500 based X 1.2 for being on the rail X 1.1 for being close to HQ X 1.0 for being in good supply for a total of 660 men in the first round. A unit with a total of modification of 300 men from the 500 base would get 300.

The total replacements would deduct 660 men + 300 men for these two units from the replacements for a total of 960.

4) Then some type of calculation is done for tje pool. On some days, I felt multiple rounds of replacements were phased in unti they were gone; other times, I felt some front wide calculation was done and everything was scored on that calculation. But virtually everyone on refit will get some replacements if they exist in the pool. And units on a railroads get a lot of replacements.

5) Now, there are some caveats. The replacements seem to depend on what's in the production/inventory pool. Some way, a separate round is done for infantry, mech and artillery. I can't determine how these pools are "created".

6) And all of this has been done on the Soviet side, not the German side.

So take this with a large grain of salt. It gives you some guidelines but not sure it gives any definite answers.

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 5
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/30/2013 8:08:57 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 1257
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: London
Status: offline
My only gripe with refit is that the game seems to ignore TOE settings if unit on refit. Eg set TOE to 75%, leave unit on refit a couple of turns and you can find it at nearly 100% TOE.

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to turtlefang)
Post #: 6
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/30/2013 9:45:20 AM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 159
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline
I've sent some of my really worn-out divisions, usually 4000 and under in manpower, back to Germany to refit. They rebuild quicker than units closer to the front, but it also depends on how many units you have on 'refit'. Smaller number and they rebuild faster, elite units taking priority in the refit.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 7
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/30/2013 1:11:57 PM   
turtlefang

 

Posts: 333
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline
sillyflower -

The fact that a unit fills out to 100% on refit is a design issue not a mistake. On refit, all units override the TOE settings and are set to 100%. The max setting only applies to 'normal' replacements. The only way to avoid this is to not put the unit on refit.

Regarding faster fill outs. The fewer units on refit, the more replacements that are avaliable for those units to get to 100% faster.

One thing I forgot to mention is that two replacement pools are created at the start of the replacement phase:
1) for refits it looks like the pool starts about 75% of the total replacements,
2) the rest go to all the units on regular replacement.

This can, if you have nearly all your units on refit, result in non-refit units getting more replacements than units on refit if you have just a few units on non-refit. I actually don't think it would happen in a real game, but I managed to force in test.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 8
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/30/2013 2:19:20 PM   
Shupov


Posts: 216
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline
Below is a very important rule for NON-refitting Infantry units:

18.2.2 Ground Element Replacements and TOE
Infantry units that are not set to refit are limited by default in the replacements they can receive. Soviet Infantry units will not normally receive replacements for a type of ground element that has more than 60% of that types TOE. After 1941, Axis Infantry units will not normally receive replacements for a type of ground element that has more than 80% of that types TOE.

In other words, infantry units will not go above these % TOE unless they are on refit. Until I understood this rule I didn't know why my manpower pool wasn't being used to fill out my infantry to Max TOE!

_____________________________

Two broken Tigers on fire in the night,
Flicker their souls to the wind...

Al Stewart, "Roads to Moscow"

(in reply to turtlefang)
Post #: 9
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/30/2013 2:35:59 PM   
hfarrish


Posts: 743
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV

1) Is there a leader check, and if so, what attribute is used?
2) Is there some priority established, like lower TOE units are considered in the front of the line?
3) Is there just a random number used (after all the distance to railhead is factored in) to determine the amount a unit receives?

To be clear, I am not complaining. I am just trying to understand the mechanics of refit.

Any comments?




I am almost certain that a leader's admin ability influences refit - but don't have any solid evidence for that, just intuition of what that ability is designed to do.

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 10
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/30/2013 3:08:44 PM   
AFV


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline
Thanks turtlefang!
My reads on this are very similar. In your second part, of the things you suspect, interesting take on it.
From my games, I agree with your 1 thru 7, except 6 (maybe)- and I think the random factor has a very wide range, like .1 to .9.

To add my feelings on the subject (because honestly, the result are so mixed its really hard to really "figure" it out):
I think another factor is based on need- for example, two units next to each other, both in STAVKA, both on rail, etc all things being equal except one is at 5% TOE and the other is at 70% TOE, the 5% TOE unit will get much more replacements. That would go with turtlefang's suggestion of prioritization.
To hfarrish- I think you are right about leader rolls, that could explain why two units in identical situations get vastly different replacements- one made the leader roll and another didn't. Or it could just be the random factor.

(in reply to hfarrish)
Post #: 11
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/30/2013 5:27:50 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 652
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang
The fact that a unit fills out to 100% on refit is a design issue not a mistake. On refit, all units override the TOE settings and are set to 100%. The max setting only applies to 'normal' replacements. The only way to avoid this is to not put the unit on refit.


My comments below are mostly my experiences for the Russian side.

My experience does not back this up. I do see units on refit sometimes go above their max TOE setting (even posted it in the Bug forum a long time ago), but it isn't a rule that happens 100% of the time. I often set max TOE to (for example) 50% and refit the unit. The majority of the time, it will fill out to 50% and stay there. I find for the most part that the element that most often goes above the max TOE setting is Rifle Squads. Everything else in the unit could reach it's max TOE (for example 80%) but Rifle Squads are usually the one that will go above. Again, in my experience it doesn't happen 100% of the time. I haven't nailed it down yet, but it seems that max TOE set to 70% or above have a higher likelyhood of jumping above the max TOE, while settings of less than 70% seem to be much more reliable at staying at that level (this is all for units on refit).

New/rebuilt units and heavily worn down units also seem more reliable in staying at their (lower) max TOE setting. It almost seems as if there's some threshold/bug whereby a unit that goes or starts below a certain TOE % will build back up and strictly adhear to the lowered max TOE setting while on refit, as opposed to other units who have had higher strength or previously set to higher max TOE. Again, I haven't been able to fully put my finger on it, but there's more going on than simply units on refit going over their max TOE setting all of the time.

For anyone having problems filling out Soviet Artillery Divisions, don't forget that SUs are by default on refit. As refit takes priority for replacements, SUs will always be the first priority for replacements. Having 200+ Artillery/Mortar Regiments all demanding replacements soaks up a lot of guns. Setting your Artillery and Mortar SU max TOE to 50% will pretty much stop guns and mortars going to those units, and refitting Artillery Divisions will then fill out much more quickly. There are also lots of Artillery and Mortars in the Rifle Div/Corps units, so having lots of those on refit will also slow Artillery Divs filling up.

I also think that type of unit has an effect on refit. For instance, rifle units seem to take a priority on rifle squads, tank units will take a priority on tanks, etc. I've found that Tank/Mech Corps can often be low on Rifle Squads if I have lots of rifle units on refit. Reducing the number of rifle units on refit usually brings up the number of Rifle Squads in the Tank/Mech Corps (while on refit).

< Message edited by Schmart -- 1/30/2013 5:30:03 PM >

(in reply to turtlefang)
Post #: 12
RE: Does anyone know how refit really works? - 1/31/2013 4:25:50 AM   
turtlefang

 

Posts: 333
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline
hfarrish/AFV -

I would have bet money that some leader's rating would impact the result of replacements (not just refits) and would have picked the admin rating. And it may still impact the rate in some manner. I just couldn't isolate it (although I gave up and now wish I had run more test). So I don't know if the "random factor" is driven by the success or failure of a leader's roll, is a totally random roll, or a combination of the two.

Also the rules state all units on refit will be built to thier max before and only if replacements exist after these recieve the maximum will any units on non-refit units recieve replacement. Based on the test I did, this doesn't seem to be the way it works. Some replacements always go the "normal" units. The 75/25 breakdown is the best estimate I could come up with after running the test.

Schmart -

You maybe right regarding the TOE. My experience don't seem to support it as many units go over the % I set. However, I can't say for certain as this is more an observation on my part from games rather than from the testing I did. I simply didn't test (didn't even think about it to be honest) but in my games I see units on refit go over the % I set if I keep them off the line to minimize losses and build up. And they seem to go right on up to 100%. But it is something I will keep an eye on now.

As far as the prioritization goes, your theory better than anything I have at this point. Seems to fit the patterns I have seen and sounds reasonable. This is another area that more opinions and observations would be useful.

Would love to here anyone else's experience here on the TOE issue or any part of the rest of it. The more we get, the better off we'll be eventually.

(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 13
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Does anyone know how refit really works? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.083