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(Suggestion) Manpower as resource?

 
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(Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 4:11:22 PM   
towerbooks3192


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I had this game where I forgot to link all my cities to an HQ through my road/rail network so I ended up manufacturing infantries. I managed to win the war swarming my enemy with rifles only without caring of my loses because there are still more from where it came from. I was wondering if adding manpower as a resource would help limit the use human wave tactics and would make conquered city a little more significant rather than just a source of oil and PP but also of men forced to fight for you (so lets say conquered city gets X lesser manpower than your own city)
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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 4:17:21 PM   
Webizen


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Human wave tactics might work against the AI. You would get slaughtered vs a human player with those tactics.

In the old AT game a captured enemy city could produce anything one of your own cities could. I think Vic changing that in ATG so captured enemy cities can't produce combat units is what has made ATG a much better game. My opinion of course.

quote:

ORIGINAL: towerbooks3192

I had this game where I forgot to link all my cities to an HQ through my road/rail network so I ended up manufacturing infantries. I managed to win the war swarming my enemy with rifles only without caring of my loses because there are still more from where it came from. I was wondering if adding manpower as a resource would help limit the use human wave tactics and would make conquered city a little more significant rather than just a source of oil and PP but also of men forced to fight for you (so lets say conquered city gets X lesser manpower than your own city)



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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 4:27:16 PM   
towerbooks3192


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Yeah I am aware of that. I know I wouldn't last if ever I will be using that against humans.

The thing is I think adding manpower as a resource would be cool just to add some challenge and make sure to really think before planning to sacrifice your troops when you know you could only churn out limited troops depending on your number of cities. But now I just realised that the scale of ATG in terms of troop numbers is not like DC where in DC you get like a thousand in a division whereas you could make a division of 1 to nth number of troops in a division in ATG so having X number of troops is still feasible since a city could contain thousands and you are only deploying like lets say a thousand max or something at any given time.


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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 4:29:46 PM   
danlongman

 

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I would like to see manpower, workers, food and other resources with transportation as an optional complex economy to overlay
the game and give it some human as well as physical geography. We already have "ethnic" areas in random games. I play almost
exclusively random games. The older (starting in 1900) Bombur mod was my favourite for random games.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 4:36:36 PM   
towerbooks3192


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quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

I would like to see manpower, workers, food and other resources with transportation as an optional complex economy to overlay
the game and give it some human as well as physical geography. We already have "ethnic" areas in random games. I play almost
exclusively random games. The older (starting in 1900) Bombur mod was my favourite for random games.


I think food is already abstracted as supplies however I think it would be cool to add manpower so that its not only your planes/tanks/etc. that needs resources but also your number of men as well. As for workers, I think it is not necessary for you will be able to build additional factories to manufacture units.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 4:47:07 PM   
Webizen


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At one point Vic was experimenting with manpower as a limited resource. Who knows, if one day we see an AT Platinum it might make an appearance. If it is put in a separate at2 file as the new officers module was, it could be tried without forcing players to use it.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 5:08:19 PM   
towerbooks3192


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Webizen

At one point Vic was experimenting with manpower as a limited resource. Who knows, if one day we see an AT Platinum it might make an appearance. If it is put in a separate at2 file as the new officers module was, it could be tried without forcing players to use it.


I'm crossing my fingers that at one point he would! Anyway I am loving the game more and more and we'll see how things go.

Hey Webizen, I installed your Nato Counters on my other computer where I used to play ATG. Could I play a new dawn with your Nato Counters?

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 5:33:17 PM   
Webizen


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Whatever NATO Counters Mod you installed, you should have the ability to play 'anewdawn' with NATO counters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: towerbooks3192

I installed your Nato Counters on my other computer where I used to play ATG. Could I play a new dawn with your Nato Counters?



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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 5:53:28 PM   
mgaffn1

 

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Funny you should start this thread. I was playing around on the editor this week and created a resouce I called "crops", that basically determined how many foot soldier units you could create based on the amount of farmland you owned. Didn't work exactly like I'd planned, but may lead to some other interesting features.
I find that in long games, the amount of supplies able to be produced by a regime already limits available manpower. Eventually your army becomes so big you cannot create enough supplies to keep it functioning. So in a way, manpower is already limited.

A year or two ago there was a thread about a user-created mod based on a sci-fi theme. In this mod each species of alien would need different resouces to survive & flourish. At one point we were talking about 6-7 different resources, with one or two common to all races, but each race having a resource need unique to itself, but useless to other races.

I agree with Webizen that changing it so enemy cities cannot produce combat units has made ATG a better game.


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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 8:38:35 PM   
Josh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mgaffn1

Funny you should start this thread. I was playing around on the editor this week and created a resouce I called "crops", that basically determined how many foot soldier units you could create based on the amount of farmland you owned. Didn't work exactly like I'd planned, but may lead to some other interesting features.
I find that in long games, the amount of supplies able to be produced by a regime already limits available manpower. Eventually your army becomes so big you cannot create enough supplies to keep it functioning. So in a way, manpower is already limited.

A year or two ago there was a thread about a user-created mod based on a sci-fi theme. In this mod each species of alien would need different resouces to survive & flourish. At one point we were talking about 6-7 different resources, with one or two common to all races, but each race having a resource need unique to itself, but useless to other races.

I agree with Webizen that changing it so enemy cities cannot produce combat units has made ATG a better game.




Well exactly, I was like.. what is he talking about? I have *huge* problems to hold a continuous line because I don't have enough troops. I must say that I usually play on very large maps, but you can only produce so much before your supply runs out... so like Mike here says; the amount of supply you can produce already limits your forcepool. And believe me I have huge gaps in my lines sometimes.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 10:38:07 PM   
Madlok


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But how to set manpower costs?

If it would be realistic:
Rifle 1 manpower
Tank 4-5?
Heavy machine gun 3-6?
Submarine 50?
Battleship 1000?

So it can't be realistic. XD

And it can't be just 1 manpower for any unit, because infantry already has only little combat value and it is building mainly for saving raw and oil.

< Message edited by Madlok -- 1/25/2013 10:39:33 PM >


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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/25/2013 10:45:05 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Madlok has a point!

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/26/2013 5:25:04 AM   
towerbooks3192


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh


quote:

ORIGINAL: mgaffn1

Funny you should start this thread. I was playing around on the editor this week and created a resouce I called "crops", that basically determined how many foot soldier units you could create based on the amount of farmland you owned. Didn't work exactly like I'd planned, but may lead to some other interesting features.
I find that in long games, the amount of supplies able to be produced by a regime already limits available manpower. Eventually your army becomes so big you cannot create enough supplies to keep it functioning. So in a way, manpower is already limited.

A year or two ago there was a thread about a user-created mod based on a sci-fi theme. In this mod each species of alien would need different resouces to survive & flourish. At one point we were talking about 6-7 different resources, with one or two common to all races, but each race having a resource need unique to itself, but useless to other races.

I agree with Webizen that changing it so enemy cities cannot produce combat units has made ATG a better game.




Well exactly, I was like.. what is he talking about? I have *huge* problems to hold a continuous line because I don't have enough troops. I must say that I usually play on very large maps, but you can only produce so much before your supply runs out... so like Mike here says; the amount of supply you can produce already limits your forcepool. And believe me I have huge gaps in my lines sometimes.


Never had a chance to play on really huge maps but now that you mentioned it then yeah I guess the amount of supply produce limits that. I usually play in small maps but I will try to see how it goes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Madlok

But how to set manpower costs?

If it would be realistic:
Rifle 1 manpower
Tank 4-5?
Heavy machine gun 3-6?
Submarine 50?
Battleship 1000?

So it can't be realistic. XD

And it can't be just 1 manpower for any unit, because infantry already has only little combat value and it is building mainly for saving raw and oil.


Hmmm. you have a point. Yeah I guess there is no need for manpower then. Like Josh said, the supply already limits that on large maps and I haven't encountered that because I haven't played large to unplayable ever.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/26/2013 3:26:08 PM   
Josh

 

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Well the idea of "manpower" is not bad per se, some other games have it as well, lose to many troops and you're in trouble. This is not the case in ATG, matter of fact you can produce infantry without limits... only they get no supply and end up being useless canonfodder. I've played games where every city in my original country was producing supply to the max... that's also the ceiling of the size of your force. Plus you need some extra supply for troop upgrades. But as it is now with the latest builds of ATG I have huge stetches of land without any forces at all... they're all at the front. So yes I have to keep a strategic reserve at my Supreme HQ just in case.
HOI has manpower, WitE has manpower, just to name a few.
In the "old AT" engine it used to be that *every city* you took could produce *anything* you wanted, including Supplies and Inf. So the result was that once you got rolling your army became unstoppable... wasn't much fun in that. The inclusion of Raw/Ore and Oil added even more fun.
So hmm, if and when "manpower" will be added... apart from the above mentioned Supply limit,  it would have to be dependent (sp? dependent or dependant? ) on the size of the map. Say X large would mean the numbers Madlok mentioned are about right. Your Capitol would then produce either 40 PP's, or 20.000 Supply... and apart from that there would have to be a different value, say population value, it would also need a new Tab at the top of your screen, next to the Oil and PP and Supply tab. A Population tab, which should be slowly increasing. HOI has a few sliders for that part alone.
Oh well never hurts to have some loose thoughts no?

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/26/2013 4:51:47 PM   
Madlok


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It is easy to add manpower as resource and I know how to add manpower cost to units. But I don't know how to add manpower autoproduction for cities and capitols (like resource autoproduction for mines) and not brake normal production.

< Message edited by Madlok -- 1/26/2013 4:56:18 PM >


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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/26/2013 7:49:13 PM   
Josh

 

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Well it would add another "scarcity" which is what makes games fun. This time the scarcity is not oil or ore or tanks, but your people. And it would be different from the things you either produce (tanks, supply, PP's) or harvest (like oil, ore). It would imply that you can't produce units till you reach the supply limit, matter of fact if you would lose too many battles you'd find yourself out of manpower.. like the Germans faced, or the Russians for that matter. Enough capacity to produce endless rows of tanks and planes.. but no humans left to use them. It would add another strategic layer to consider.
Thinking further... how about manpower losses can effect the national morale of a regime. Win major battles and your national morale increases, so the units morale increases... lose a lot of men in battles and your national morale plummets... maybe even effecting the production of your factories.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/27/2013 7:07:28 PM   
danlongman

 

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Right now I would like to combine the Bombur Mod (new or old, but I like old best) with the Nato Officers Random game.
Is that doable?

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/27/2013 8:34:20 PM   
Twotribes


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I am OPPOSED to a change in the game where manpower is put into the game. It can be modded by those that want it.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/27/2013 10:16:08 PM   
Josh

 

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Well it could be *optional* just like the ore/oil concept is now. The addition of ore/oil made the game better IMHO ofcourse, but not all additions and "improvements" make games better ofcourse.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/28/2013 6:53:54 AM   
towerbooks3192


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

Well it could be *optional* just like the ore/oil concept is now. The addition of ore/oil made the game better IMHO ofcourse, but not all additions and "improvements" make games better ofcourse.


Yeah, I agree josh, I prefer using supplies while churning out units or else I will feel like I am playing something like advance wars on GBA/DS or something like wesnoth where I could just churn out units without the need of resources other than gold. Anyway I was just suggesting it but since Josh told me about supply limits in bigger maps then I guess there is no need for it then but it would be a cool optional thing that could be added in the game.

My only wish as of the moment is that Vic will improve the officers and maybe add the special units (it would be cool to have something like the gebirgsjager /brandenburgers/ panzergrenadier /Waffen SS/ etc.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/28/2013 9:54:28 AM   
Josh

 

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"...gebirgsjager /brandenburgers/ panzergrenadier /Waffen SS/ etc..."

Yeah that's a definite + 1.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/28/2013 12:34:29 PM   
Webizen


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Not sure. First, Bombur would have base his mod on the anewdawn.at2 file. Second, I think his mod uses its own customized counters. It should however be possible to substitute NATO counters I would think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

Right now I would like to combine the Bombur Mod (new or old, but I like old best) with the Nato Officers Random game. Is that doable?



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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 1/29/2013 11:17:28 AM   
Bombur

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

Right now I would like to combine the Bombur Mod (new or old, but I like old best) with the Nato Officers Random game.
Is that doable?



You probably should add code from the new dawn master file. However, it should be noticed that Bombur 2 mod is still a work inprogres.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 2/4/2013 9:32:23 PM   
danlongman

 

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I really enjoy planning and managing an economy to make my armed forces. Do I make more or better soldiers? Do I research tanks or develop
those ore deposits? When you have a rail/road net you have critical road junctions, resource/industrial areas and all that good stuff along
with the bad guy army to smash. Do I go to war with Italy's 1930's army, Germany's 1940 army or USA's 1944 army? What ratio of tanks to infantry
do I want? Do I need Cavalry, commandos, parachutists, light or heavy artillery? Expensive high quality infantry or draftees?
This makes it fun to me. An overlay for more complex things would be welcome so the stodgy old cowboys and Indians, axis and allies guys wouldn't
have to learn to do maths or plans. They could just bang! bang! bang! to their heart's content.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 2/5/2013 3:55:34 AM   
lion_of_judah


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i would find the addition of manpower added as a resource and used in the same manner as ore/oil to be a rather good idea. how does one mod that in order for it to be produced. am i correct in assuming that manpower would be used to create units the same way as ore is used, if so then this shouldn't be that hard to add.

Towns can produce 1 manpower per turn, cities 2 and capitals can produce 5-6 per turn but they have to choose this instead of producing weapons/infantry or ore. each infantry is created will cost 1 PP point, and 3 manpower points, tanks will cost same PP points and 5 manpower points. Commando/paratroop units will cost 1 PP and 10 manpower points. Artillery, planes,armoured vehicles, ships will cost double in manpower points as say a tank or commando unit.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 2/5/2013 4:05:10 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Yes it is pretty easy to mod. I think I could guide someone through it if they wanted to do it...

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 2/5/2013 4:11:02 AM   
lion_of_judah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

Yes it is pretty easy to mod. I think I could guide someone through it if they wanted to do it...


i'm willing and able to take this on. this would work perfectly with my Honduras-Salvadoran scenario.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 2/5/2013 4:13:41 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Then I guess I have some living up to do :P :)

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 2/5/2013 4:17:15 AM   
lion_of_judah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

Then I guess I have some living up to do :P :)


heck ya, just shoot me an email with instructions if that is easier and i'll tackle this once i get home from work.

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RE: (Suggestion) Manpower as resource? - 2/5/2013 4:22:06 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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I´ll try and write a guide actually, i think....
Might be a few hours before i start on it though, planning on getting some sleep soon.

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