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RE: Women In the Infantry

 
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RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 1:21:25 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
And if they are capable and want to contribute to the defense of their country, shouldn't they be allowed to?


Woman already serve in the military, what is about to change is putting them in the infantry branch of the military. Capt. Petronio is a classic case of why they should not be allowed to serve alongside men in combat. She herself admits to being one of the typical "I can do anything men can do" crowd as few as 5 years ago. But after one tour in Iraq and one in Afghanistan she has completely done an about face. Listen to her from about 16:30 in the link I posted and she touches on some of the reasons for her epiphany on the issue.

She spent just 7 months in Afghanistan and was sick and a physical wreck after her tour and can no longer have children because of the physical damage the stress of her duties caused to her body. And she wasn't even coming close to keeping up with the men she worked with according to her own account. It would probably have killed her had she tried to keep up with the men. The other woman was even worse off than her, but she didn't go into details about her ailments.

Women in combat will be just as pathetic as women on the police force in practice. Noble words and noble intent do NOT make up for ineptitude in execution and that's what will happen when they hit the brick wall of their own physical limitations. Like it or not they are not strong enough to do everything men do and putting them in jobs that require that kind of strength or sustained stamina will get people killed when the S**t hits the fan.

A female soldier will not be able to rapidly carry/move a 170-200lb soldier that has just been hit by sniper fire out of the danger zone. She might manage a few feet or yards, but imagine it's 50-100 yards to get out of the open. She will be faced with the horrific decision to leave her wounded comrade to die and run for cover or to stay with him and die as well. All the political correctness in the world isn't going to change that fact. I can think of hundreds of combat situations were strength and stamina is all that can save lives and in every instance 99.999% of females will fail utterly to save that life. But hey just as long as we don't discriminate against them good men dying for their political agenda is ok I guess.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 2/6/2013 1:40:20 PM >

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Post #: 181
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 1:39:00 PM   
Gary Childress


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Status: offline 		Well apparently many women in the IDF don't feel the same way as Captain Petronio. How is it that women are able to contribute to the defense of Israel but not the US. Do all women in the infantry experience the same thing as Cpt Petronio? I mean if a guy with PTSD got up and said that he was living proof that men shouldn't be forced to fight in wars would that count against men serving in the military? I'm sure there are many individuals who just aren't cut out for one job or another. But does that rule out the possbility that others may succeed? How is the IDF able to use women in the front line but certain other countries can't? Are Israeli women just stronger and more accustomed to hardship than American women?

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 2/6/2013 1:40:43 PM >

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Post #: 182
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 1:52:25 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 2730
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From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		Had you bothered to listen to her whole interview instead of simply spouting off your political doctrine, you'd have realized she touches on this exact issue. The military is about combat readiness and capability not the individual soldier. If you allow women in combat because a few can hack it, what effectively happens is all women in the military become a number on a page that can be moved where needed even if they don't want to be moved. They will be sent wholesale into infantry units without regard to individual abilities and the vast majority of them will be unable to perform their duties on the same level expected of men now.

According to her, she was and is an over-achiever in life, yet she admits she couldn't come close to performing on the level of her male peers. In practice she did the same thing I saw done over and over on the police force. She hid herself and the other female away somewhere safe and failed to do the job expected of the men. She wasn't shirking her duties, she simply wasn't able to do them and simply surviving the tour was a challenge. Now imagine that kind of performance on a massive scale across the entire military and you understand what she means when she says it will detrimentally effect our military readiness and combat ability.

The IDF uses women because they have no real choice. We however have a choice.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 2/6/2013 1:53:14 PM >

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Post #: 183
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 2:01:50 PM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Well apparently many women in the IDF don't feel the same way as Captain Petronio. How is it that women are able to contribute to the defense of Israel but not the US. Do all women in the infantry experience the same thing as Cpt Petronio? I mean if a guy with PTSD got up and said that he was living proof that men shouldn't be forced to fight in wars would that count against men serving in the military? I'm sure there are many individuals who just aren't cut out for one job or another. But does that rule out the possbility that others may succeed? How is the IDF able to use women in the front line but certain other countries can't? Are Israeli women just stronger and more accustomed to hardship than American women?


I hate to break it to folks who want to throw about "Israeli women in combat", well, NO I don't:

“History shows that the presence of women has had a devastating impact on the effectiveness of men in battle,” wrote John Luddy in July 27, 1994, for the Heritage Foundation backgrounder.

“For example, it is a common misperception that Israel allows women in combat units. In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be. The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield,” Luddy said.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2001/08/10269/#ZDbT9IO3t5qfJFlA.99

Edward Norton, a reservist in the Israel Defense Forces: “Women have always played an important role in the Israeli military, but they rarely see combat; if they do, it is usually by accident. No one in Israel, including feminists, has any objection to this situation. The fact that the Persian Gulf War has produced calls to allow women on the front lines proves only how atypical that war was and how little Americans really understand combat.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2001/08/10269/#ZDbT9IO3t5qfJFlA.99

But I fear that no amount of proof of the dangers and double standards of women in combat will go over the heads of those who don't care if women mangled and killed in combat.


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Post #: 184
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 2:04:41 PM   
Gary Childress


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Had you bothered to listen to her whole interview instead of simply spouting off your political doctrine, you'd have realized she touches on this exact issue. The military is about combat readiness and capability not the individual soldier. If you allow women in combat because a few can hack it, what effectively happens is all women in the military become a number on a page that can be moved where needed even if they don't want to be moved. They will be sent wholesale into infantry units without regard to individual abilities and the vast majority of them will be unable to perform their duties on the same level expected of men now.

According to her, she was and is an over-achiever in life, yet she admits she couldn't come close to performing on the level of her male peers. In practice she did the same thing I saw done over and over on the police force. She hid herself and the other female away somewhere safe and failed to do the job expected of the men. She wasn't shirking her duties, she simply wasn't able to do them and simply surviving the tour was a challenge. Now imagine that kind of performance on a massive scale across the entire military and you understand what she means when she says it will detrimentally effect our military readiness and combat ability.

The IDF uses women because they have no real choice. We however have a choice.

Jim



Some "overachieving" men probably aren't cut out for front line service either. The rigors of front line life seem to have different effects on different people, regardless of intelligence or physical shape. I'm not going to base my perception on women in combat based upon one testimony, especially when there is evidence that women are cutting it elsewhere on the globe. Sounds like you are using one testimony so you can "spout off your political doctrine."

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Post #: 185
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 2:07:59 PM   
Gary Childress


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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Well apparently many women in the IDF don't feel the same way as Captain Petronio. How is it that women are able to contribute to the defense of Israel but not the US. Do all women in the infantry experience the same thing as Cpt Petronio? I mean if a guy with PTSD got up and said that he was living proof that men shouldn't be forced to fight in wars would that count against men serving in the military? I'm sure there are many individuals who just aren't cut out for one job or another. But does that rule out the possbility that others may succeed? How is the IDF able to use women in the front line but certain other countries can't? Are Israeli women just stronger and more accustomed to hardship than American women?


I hate to break it to folks who want to throw about "Israeli women in combat", well, NO I don't:

“History shows that the presence of women has had a devastating impact on the effectiveness of men in battle,” wrote John Luddy in July 27, 1994, for the Heritage Foundation backgrounder.



Well if the Heritage Foundation says so then it must be true. I surrender my case.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 2/6/2013 2:08:50 PM >

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Post #: 186
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 2:10:22 PM   
berto


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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

So based on the fact that women serve in combat roles in the IDF doesn't prove that women are capable of doing so? Are women a detriment to the IDF? EDIT: And if they are a detriment then why would the IDF deploy them if they will reduce combat effectiveness of the IDF?

It's a question of some combat roles (maybe even most of them) vs. absolutely all of them. I for one am not willing to go the last final steps toward perfectly full equality. (Note: my concerns go beyond the narrow ones of physical fitness and strength.)

There are no value absolutes here. At some point, decreasing marginal returns become negative marginal returns. Costs outweigh benefits. Fulfilling the core defense mission becomes paramount.

Why would the Israelis, in their effective desperation, admit women to all combat roles? (And do they? Are you sure absolutely all?) Maybe because, faced with dire existential threat, numbers outweigh marginally reduced combat effectiveness, and trump all other considerations. Their circumstances, their considerations. Not ours.

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Post #: 187
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 2:20:14 PM   
Jim D Burns


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From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Sounds like you are using one testimony so you can "spout off your political doctrine."


Go back to my post on page two. I'm basing my opinion on years of experience in the police department and what I actually saw occur in practice on the streets every single day. Simply put female officers couldn't cut it and ended up working in the building as soon as they realized how helpless they were in physical confrontations. Very few made it past one year on the streets.

Combat will be far worse than police work when it comes to physical demands and violence. While there were lots of fights on almost a daily basis in Oakland, the vast majority were trying to flee so a lost fight usually didn't end in someone's death. Most female officers lost every fight they were in with male suspects if they didn't have a male officer to back them up. I suspect combat will be the same only a loss will equal someone dying.

So no politics here, just the cold hard facts about physical limitations in violent situations. Combat is unforgiving and many will die for this ideologically driven PC agenda.

Jim

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Post #: 188
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 2:40:15 PM   
parusski


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From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Well apparently many women in the IDF don't feel the same way as Captain Petronio. How is it that women are able to contribute to the defense of Israel but not the US. Do all women in the infantry experience the same thing as Cpt Petronio? I mean if a guy with PTSD got up and said that he was living proof that men shouldn't be forced to fight in wars would that count against men serving in the military? I'm sure there are many individuals who just aren't cut out for one job or another. But does that rule out the possbility that others may succeed? How is the IDF able to use women in the front line but certain other countries can't? Are Israeli women just stronger and more accustomed to hardship than American women?


I hate to break it to folks who want to throw about "Israeli women in combat", well, NO I don't:

“History shows that the presence of women has had a devastating impact on the effectiveness of men in battle,” wrote John Luddy in July 27, 1994, for the Heritage Foundation backgrounder.



Well if the Heritage Foundation says so then it must be true. I surrender my case.


Yeah. Right. All I know is that when I was a few years younger I DID support women in combat. But I have changed my mind for many, many, many reasons. And the most important one - my independent, strong minded, healthy athletic daughter, is 21 and the thought of her in combat is beyond comprehension. Of course I hope my sons never have to go into battle, but my wife and I could accept that much more easily than we could our little girl. And my daughter finds the whole idea "retarded" as she puts it.

One more thing, my little girl likes war games and loves her guns, which includes an AR-15, Springfield Armory 1911 semit-auto and a Browning BT-99 Grade III Shotgun.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

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Post #: 189
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 2:43:22 PM   
Gary Childress


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Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline 		OK. So women on the front line maybe demoralizes men... I suppose a case could be made that a hundred years ago large numbers of blacks in front line roles in the US army might have undermined the confidence of white male soldiers who happened to adhere to the racial stereotypes of their time. I'm sure if we backpeddled a dozen decades there would be plenty of flak about allowing blacks to serve frontline status and all sorts of anecdotal evidence might be cited to reinforce this belief. I just wonder if this issue with women in combat is not another case of cultural prejudices getting in the way of the advancement of minority rights. Apparently male soldiers don't know how to handle female casualties. Is that the fault of females or do males need to simply get over their "paternalistic hangups"? I don't know the answer but the current debate certainly seems to provoke the passions just as much. I wonder if those passions aren't clouding peoples' judgement on the issue.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 190
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/6/2013 2:55:49 PM   
parusski


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quote:

I wonder if those passions aren't clouding peoples' judgement on the issue.


Yes Gary, I agree. It is a shame that those who support women in combat have their judgement clouded by "feel good" politics. That is a shame.

Also, I want to ad an excellent column by Walter Williams, it is worth contemplating:

http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2013/02/06/women-in-combat-n1504759/page/2[/size=4]

Great excerpt of another double standard:

There's another issue. The Selective Service System's website has the following message about draft registration: "Even though the Secretary of Defense has decided to allow women in combat jobs, the law has not been changed to include this. Consequently, only men are currently required to register by law with Selective Service during ages 18 thru 25. Women still do not register." How can that, coupled with differences in performance standards, possibly be consistent with the Defense Department's stated agenda "to provide a level, gender-neutral playing field"?

< Message edited by parusski -- 2/6/2013 3:10:29 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 191
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/7/2013 10:26:17 AM   
rhondabrwn


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Status: offline 		Prediction: In five years we will look back on this debate and wonder why it was an issue.

Hopefully, I'll still be alive to come back and post an "I told you so"

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RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/7/2013 10:54:34 AM   
berto


Posts: 1321
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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Prediction: In five years we will look back on this debate and wonder why it was an issue.

Hopefully, I'll still be alive to come back and post an "I told you so"

Yes, Rhonda, I believe you're right.

I predict that in five years time

  • we will have pretend equality
  • we (most of us) will turn a blind eye to the many inevitable de jure and de facto exceptions
  • combat effectiveness will be reduced (no big deal, right?)
  • the mainstream media will sweep under the rug many of the bad after effects
  • the mainstream media, hence popular attention, will have moved on to The Next Big Thing (gender "equality" in pro sports? legalized polygamy?)

    We will have been spun, we will recover our balance, and we will await the next go-around.

    Get over it. That's just the way it is. Life in these times.

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    • Post #: 193
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/7/2013 11:40:25 AM   
    Empire101


    Posts: 1896
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    From: Coruscant
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
    So no politics here, just the cold hard facts about physical limitations in violent situations. Combat is unforgiving and many will die for this ideologically driven PC agenda.



    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

    Prediction: In five years we will look back on this debate and wonder why it was an issue.

    Hopefully, I'll still be alive to come back and post an "I told you so"

    Yes, Rhonda, I believe you're right.

    I predict that in five years time

  • we will have pretend equality
  • we (most of us) will turn a blind eye to the many inevitable de jure and de facto exceptions
  • combat effectiveness will be reduced (no big deal, right?)
  • the mainstream media will sweep under the rug many of the bad after effects
  • the mainstream media, hence popular attention, will have moved on to The Next Big Thing (gender "equality" in pro sports? legalized polygamy?)

    We will have been spun, we will recover our balance, and we will await the next go-around.

    Get over it. That's just the way it is. Life in these times.


    • +1. Life in these times ......unfortunately.

    Equality.....pah!! Yeah only for the 'good, easy' jobs.
    You don't see women flocking to become coalminers or dustbin collectors.

    A women changing a tyre on a car????? Puhleeaasse!!
    99.9% of women would'nt even consider the possibility of doing that...its dirty and its not nice.
    The men can carry on doing all the ****e jobs....... women want to start on the job ladder as a CEO.

    < Message edited by Empire101 -- 2/7/2013 12:39:43 PM >

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    Post #: 194
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/7/2013 11:53:15 AM   
    mullk

     

    Posts: 443
    Joined: 4/3/2003
    From: Ohio
    Status: offline     		Just out of curiosity how many of you folks calling for woman in front line combat have extensive military backgrounds? As many folks point out their are differences in standards but their is also a vast difference in treatment as well in the field that can and have been very bad for morale/unit cohesion.

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    Post #: 195
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/7/2013 12:31:07 PM   
    Empire101


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mullk

    Just out of curiosity how many of you folks calling for woman in front line combat have extensive military backgrounds? As many folks point out their are differences in standards but their is also a vast difference in treatment as well in the field that can and have been very bad for morale/unit cohesion.



    8 years in a regular tank regiment.

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    Post #: 196
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/7/2013 12:36:02 PM   
    Sarge


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    (in reply to Empire101)
    Post #: 197
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/7/2013 2:28:50 PM   
    Titanwarrior89


    Posts: 2873
    Joined: 8/28/2003
    From: arkansas
    Status: offline     		See first post in this thread.
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mullk

    Just out of curiosity how many of you folks calling for woman in front line combat have extensive military backgrounds? As many folks point out their are differences in standards but their is also a vast difference in treatment as well in the field that can and have been very bad for morale/unit cohesion.



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    Post #: 198
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/7/2013 2:29:32 PM   
    Titanwarrior89


    Posts: 2873
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    From: arkansas
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

    Prediction: In five years we will look back on this debate and wonder why it was an issue.

    Hopefully, I'll still be alive to come back and post an "I told you so"

    Yes, Rhonda, I believe you're right.

    I predict that in five years time

  • we will have pretend equality
  • we (most of us) will turn a blind eye to the many inevitable de jure and de facto exceptions
  • combat effectiveness will be reduced (no big deal, right?)
  • the mainstream media will sweep under the rug many of the bad after effects
  • the mainstream media, hence popular attention, will have moved on to The Next Big Thing (gender "equality" in pro sports? legalized polygamy?)

    We will have been spun, we will recover our balance, and we will await the next go-around.

    Get over it. That's just the way it is. Life in these times.



    • _____________________________

    "Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

    "Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

    (in reply to berto)
    Post #: 199
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/7/2013 5:37:07 PM   
    mullk

     

    Posts: 443
    Joined: 4/3/2003
    From: Ohio
    Status: offline     		I agree with several folks who's sentiments are this is not going to end well. I also agree that no matter how horrible the results as this is an ideological move it will be spun to be just wonderful but I also think we will suspend it due to some other ideological reason or worse keep it even if it means the loss of combat ability. For the last few years the military has been much more about social experimentation that about combat readiness. The major issue with these discussions is this is an ideology issue in more than a few peoples minds and so their can be no rational discussion as this is about beliefs and not a decision.

    (in reply to Titanwarrior89)
    Post #: 200
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/7/2013 6:05:14 PM   
    barkorn45

     

    Posts: 228
    Joined: 1/17/2010
    Status: offline     		What we are witnessing is the pansiefication of the american male
    If women are our total equals why then are the olympics devided into male and female categories?
    These same creatures that we open doors for,stand up for if were sitting and they approuched
    we're now going to throw a weapon and tell them"stand too soldier and act like a man"
    Yea thats real lady-like behavior!But i forget we men want our women to be more like men and we be metrosexual
    a kinder gentler WIMP!

    (in reply to mullk)
    Post #: 201
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/8/2013 1:01:41 AM   
    gunny

     

    Posts: 978
    Joined: 3/1/2003
    Status: offline     		We have had women in combat units in Canada for a while.

    1. There were very few of them in Afghanistan, some sections had one, other sections had no females even though it is open to recruitment, they just weren't breaking the doors down to get in.
    2. They are better shots, I have a theory as to why but I believe that is a fact
    3. The hardest thing they had to overcome was cocking the FN Mag machine gun from a prone position. As a matter of fact this became a test they had to pass because it was recognized as a serious problem as all solders had to prove they could operate this weapon.
    4. 40lb battle dress + 25lb minimum assaut pack took its toll. Add to that alot of other things like rats and water. Guys tended to get lean and buff out a bit, but by the end of the tour you could see the women lost alot of muscle mass and were quite scrawny. This didn't affect performance, but I know some filed for mechanical injuries after the tour.
    5. Overall nothing stood out pro or con. They did their job like anyone else. Most moved on and didn't re-engage.

    (in reply to barkorn45)
    Post #: 202
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/8/2013 4:46:40 AM   
    parusski


    Posts: 4467
    Joined: 5/8/2000
    From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: barkorn45

    What we are witnessing is the pansiefication of the american male
    If women are our total equals why then are the olympics devided into male and female categories?
    These same creatures that we open doors for,stand up for if were sitting and they approuched
    we're now going to throw a weapon and tell them"stand too soldier and act like a man"
    Yea thats real lady-like behavior!But i forget we men want our women to be more like men and we be metrosexual
    a kinder gentler WIMP!



    Hey, NO pansiefication with me. I am standing tall, with my wife, daughter, mother, grandmothers, several aunt's, numerous female friends saying...I/we are not ashamed to oppose this. So when people hurl insults at me, or imply I am sexist, well they need to contend with the large number of women standing shoulder to shoulder with me. Or do you think they will just ignore women who oppose female's in combat?????

    _____________________________

    "I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

    (in reply to barkorn45)
    Post #: 203
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/8/2013 6:50:59 PM   
    Orm


    Posts: 3805
    Joined: 5/3/2008
    From: Sweden
    Status: offline
    quote:

    Or do you think they will just ignore women who oppose female's in combat?????

    Yes.

    _____________________________

    "You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment."

    (in reply to parusski)
    Post #: 204
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/8/2013 6:56:29 PM   
    parusski


    Posts: 4467
    Joined: 5/8/2000
    From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Orm

    quote:

    Or do you think they will just ignore women who oppose female's in combat?????

    Yes.


    Yes. My wife and I were discussing this issue with someone last night. This other human said I was being a "typical sexist" and "you think all women should stay home..." blah blah. My wife perked up and asked this progressive human what she thought of the fact that she(my wife) opposed women in combat. The answer was instructive - "women should not be under the thumb of their husbands." Ooooops, big mistake.

    _____________________________

    "I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

    (in reply to Orm)
    Post #: 205
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/8/2013 10:47:30 PM   
    hadberz


    Posts: 1026
    Joined: 5/11/2000
    From: SW Missouri, but live in Charleston SC
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mullk

    Just out of curiosity how many of you folks calling for woman in front line combat have extensive military backgrounds? As many folks point out their are differences in standards but their is also a vast difference in treatment as well in the field that can and have been very bad for morale/unit cohesion.


    I realize most folks are discussing this from a Army/Marine point of view. Next time I see my son-in-law (Army MP) I will ask his thoughts on this, but here my 2 cents. I'm 20 years Air Force still on active duty. I can only speak for the AF. Front line, second line, last line, direct, indirect whatever you want to call it women in the AF have been in combat my entire career. They've killed, been killed, and performed their duty inside the wire, outside the wire, during convoys, and CAS/CAP missions. I suspect the Army/Marines have just as many woman who performed their duty in the same situations. To say their not in combat right now is insulting.

    Obviously each service will have to work out the details, but there is no doubt in my mind this will work. In fact below are the last AF AFSC left that barred women from combat on paper.

    quote:

    Officer / Enlisted Air Force Specialty Codes closed to women:
    - 13DXA (Combat Control Officer - special operations forces / direct ground combat)
    - 13DXB (Combat Rescue/Special Tactics Officer - special operations forces / direct ground combat)
    - 15WXC (Special Operations Weather Officer - special operations forces / direct ground combat)
    - 1C2XX (Enlisted Combat Controller - special operations forces /direct ground combat)
    - 1C4XX (Enlisted Tactical Air Command and Control - some special operations forces /direct ground combat)
    - 1T2XX (Enlisted Pararescue - special operations forces /direct ground combat)
    - 1W0X2 (Enlisted Special Operations Weather - special operations forces /direct ground combat)

    (in reply to mullk)
    Post #: 206
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/8/2013 11:07:31 PM   
    Sarge


    Posts: 2788
    Joined: 3/1/2003
    From: the pale blue dot
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

    I suppose a case could be made that a hundred years ago large numbers of blacks in front line roles in the US army might have undermined the confidence of white male soldiers who happened to adhere to the racial stereotypes of their time. I'm sure if we backpeddled a dozen decades there would be plenty of flak about allowing blacks to serve frontline status and all sorts of anecdotal evidence might be cited to reinforce this belief. I just wonder if this issue with women in combat is not another case of cultural prejudices getting in the way of the advancement of minority rights.


    Sup Gary, how's everything been? ……hope all is well as it is here !

    That has to be your all-time” race card” record, I dont get your correlation/metal gymnastics and i'm not so sure you even get it , but thumps up on the Triple Lindy ….






    Attachment (1)

    (in reply to hadberz)
    Post #: 207
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/8/2013 11:56:57 PM   
    parusski


    Posts: 4467
    Joined: 5/8/2000
    From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Sarge

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

    I suppose a case could be made that a hundred years ago large numbers of blacks in front line roles in the US army might have undermined the confidence of white male soldiers who happened to adhere to the racial stereotypes of their time. I'm sure if we backpeddled a dozen decades there would be plenty of flak about allowing blacks to serve frontline status and all sorts of anecdotal evidence might be cited to reinforce this belief. I just wonder if this issue with women in combat is not another case of cultural prejudices getting in the way of the advancement of minority rights.


    Sup Gary, how's everything been? ……hope all is well as it is here !

    That has to be your all-time” race card” record, I dont get your correlation/metal gymnastics and i'm not so sure you even get it , but thumps up on the Triple Lindy ….







    Sarge, where did you get that image of Gary Childress??

    _____________________________

    "I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

    (in reply to Sarge)
    Post #: 208
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/9/2013 10:04:04 AM   
    rhondabrwn


    Posts: 1779
    Joined: 9/29/2004
    From: Snowflake, Arizona
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: barkorn45

    What we are witnessing is the pansiefication of the american male
    If women are our total equals why then are the olympics devided into male and female categories?
    These same creatures that we open doors for,stand up for if were sitting and they approuched
    we're now going to throw a weapon and tell them"stand too soldier and act like a man"
    Yea thats real lady-like behavior!But i forget we men want our women to be more like men and we be metrosexual
    a kinder gentler WIMP!



    Honestly, we're talking about a small minority of women here who want the right to qualify for combat roles. I think you can rest assured that there will be plenty of us around who still want to have doors opened for us and other courtesies.

    I don't want all men to become WIMPs but I also have no problem with the minority that are kinder and gentler. It takes all kinds of people to make a world and we need to respect everyone's right to be their own person. All gender attributes, both physical and mental reside on a wide spectrum between very masculine to very feminine. Males and females come down all over that spectrum... strong, masculine women and weak, effeminate males. We've all known people who deviate from the average male and female roles. There are strong women out there who will make great soldiers, just as there are weak males who have no business being anywhere close to combat.

    I'll stand by my prediction that five years from now this will be a forgotten issue. It will work for some women and not for others. Standards will be adjusted as appropriate based upon experience with women in combat. We may very well discover that women make a significant contribution based on their gender differences and not despite them. If women are better shots as Gunny suggested, perhaps they will make excellent snipers. I've already suggested that women may be stealthier for infiltration and recon. We won't know till we try it.

    Just as an aside, I watched "The Front Line" for the 2nd time last night and reflected on this discussion as the North Korean female sniper "2 second" killed one man after another. She wasn't carrying a 65 pound pack either, just her rifle and a rucksack. I would suggest that a woman in a combat unit doesn't necessarily have to carry the same load as the men as long as she has skills that compensate. For example, being able to act as a translator, special weapon skills, or maybe just being really, smart, or a natural leader.

    It will be interesting whatever happens. I still say let's meet back here in five years and evaluate. In the meantime, the world isn't going to come to an end if some women get a combat MOS or even end up being a company commander (or higher). We have women commanding fighter squadrons now, so why not female infantry commanders. We can also discuss whether the Army collapsed due to the repeal of DADT (another hot button issue).

    _____________________________

    Love & Peace,

    Far Dareis Mai

    Want Navajo Nation Photos? Go to:
    http://fardareismai.piczo.com/?cr=4&rfm=y

    (in reply to barkorn45)
    Post #: 209
    RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/9/2013 10:19:34 AM   
    Empire101


    Posts: 1896
    Joined: 5/20/2008
    From: Coruscant
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
    And if they are capable and want to contribute to the defense of their country, shouldn't they be allowed to?


    Woman already serve in the military, what is about to change is putting them in the infantry branch of the military. Capt. Petronio is a classic case of why they should not be allowed to serve alongside men in combat. She herself admits to being one of the typical "I can do anything men can do" crowd as few as 5 years ago. But after one tour in Iraq and one in Afghanistan she has completely done an about face. Listen to her from about 16:30 in the link I posted and she touches on some of the reasons for her epiphany on the issue.

    She spent just 7 months in Afghanistan and was sick and a physical wreck after her tour and can no longer have children because of the physical damage the stress of her duties caused to her body. And she wasn't even coming close to keeping up with the men she worked with according to her own account. It would probably have killed her had she tried to keep up with the men. The other woman was even worse off than her, but she didn't go into details about her ailments.

    Women in combat will be just as pathetic as women on the police force in practice. Noble words and noble intent do NOT make up for ineptitude in execution and that's what will happen when they hit the brick wall of their own physical limitations. Like it or not they are not strong enough to do everything men do and putting them in jobs that require that kind of strength or sustained stamina will get people killed when the S**t hits the fan.

    A female soldier will not be able to rapidly carry/move a 170-200lb soldier that has just been hit by sniper fire out of the danger zone. She might manage a few feet or yards, but imagine it's 50-100 yards to get out of the open. She will be faced with the horrific decision to leave her wounded comrade to die and run for cover or to stay with him and die as well. All the political correctness in the world isn't going to change that fact. I can think of hundreds of combat situations were strength and stamina is all that can save lives and in every instance 99.999% of females will fail utterly to save that life. But hey just as long as we don't discriminate against them good men dying for their political agenda is ok I guess.

    Jim




    ++1
    Absolutely right on the button Jim

    _____________________________

    Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
    but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.     - Michael Burleigh


    (in reply to Jim D Burns)
    Post #: 210
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