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RE: Women In the Infantry

 
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RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/30/2013 5:04:11 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 16017
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: berto


quote:

I am not aware of any comparable crusade to create gender-integrated football teams. At least America knows what’s really important.

Heather Mac Donald, writing ironically, quoted from: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/338613/wrong-women-warriors-heather-mac-donald


I love Heather Mac Donald. She made an excellent point about gender-integrated football teams. Now, those who have no problem with women in combat, I propose we force the NFL to allow women to start on their football teams. Please respond and tell us where you stand on this issue.




Since you asked . . .

The issue of women in combat is stats. The NFL are elite males in the areas being measured. The SEALs if you will. Few male soldiers are SEALs (or GBs, or Rangers.)

To be acceptable a female soldier has to be as good as your worst male. He's acceptable; then so is she. And a lot of women are as good as the worst male in terms of push-ups and sit-ups. And they bring lots of other qualities to the table.

I don't know where you cavemen have been for eleven years, but woman are out there NOW. They patrol for weeks at a time with male units. They go into hot LZs. They man MCs in convoys. They engage in fire-fights on a regular basis. They just aren't officially "in combat." Now they will be.

It's also comical to watch you guys act like it's "your" military and you'll decide to let them in or not. They're citizens. They're the majority of citizens in fact. It's their country and their military as much as yours or mine. And the 20-something women of today are not the women you knew in the 60s and 70s. Meet a few of them.
warspite1

Its also comical, as you put it, to listen to you "progressives" who want to encourage women to be men and men to be women. I would rather be a caveman than a progressive liberal any day of the week.

I think this has been said already but is worth repeating. To me this has nothing to do with how fit you are or how many press-ups you can do. It's far more important than that. Like it or not, females have the babies, they bring life into the world and nurture those children - they have THE most important job in the world.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 121
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/30/2013 10:31:35 AM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 910
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laszlozoltan
Finally, without regard to how it may seem, I have no emotional involvement in this discussion; I don't know any of you and you neither me- this is not about being right or wrong- this is about communicating an idea, accept that I have respectfully given you an idea to consider- and I see that thus far you have not yet considered it.


To belittle someone and call them names is emotional. Apology not accepted.

RR

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to laszlozoltan)
Post #: 122
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/30/2013 8:52:52 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4591
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

quote:

ORIGINAL: laszlozoltan
Finally, without regard to how it may seem, I have no emotional involvement in this discussion; I don't know any of you and you neither me- this is not about being right or wrong- this is about communicating an idea, accept that I have respectfully given you an idea to consider- and I see that thus far you have not yet considered it.


To belittle someone and call them names is emotional. Apology not accepted.

RR


What's going on? We have a right to know the truth!

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 123
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/30/2013 9:05:59 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 910
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski
What's going on? We have a right to know the truth!


That is what our government should be doing ... telling the truth, that is!

My buddy laszlozoltan, is "emotionally unattached" to the debate. But, he felt the need to launch an ad hominem against me. Someone asked that he apologize. This was his next post. Not quite an apology. So, I figured I poke a stick in the bars, to rattle the cage.

RR

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 124
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/30/2013 9:13:07 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4591
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski
What's going on? We have a right to know the truth!


That is what our government should be doing ... telling the truth, that is!

My buddy laszlozoltan, is "emotionally unattached" to the debate. But, he felt the need to launch an ad hominem against me. Someone asked that he apologize. This was his next post. Not quite an apology. So, I figured I poke a stick in the bars, to rattle the cage.

RR


I see. You missed my joke. Think AIRPLANE!

Anyway, I have lot's of discussions about politics and there are quiet a few people who get angry because I don't agree with them. They perpetually demand I change my views. When I try to discuss an issue with them, like the Bill of Rights, they jump to name calling. Recently someone was telling me I had no reason to own an AR-15 or a clip holding more than a few rounds of ammo. My response was to tell him that our Congressman was proposing a law making it illegal to speak in any negative way about any amendment. He actually believed me and said he had a right to free speech. "Oh really?" I said. So you can tinker with my 2nd amendment right to own certain guns, but I can't tinker with your 1st amendment right? His only response was to say 2nd amendment freaks were as*holes. Don't you just love people who devolve to name calling?




_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 125
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 12:29:33 AM   
rhondabrwn


Posts: 1894
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline
I guess I should put my two cents in here.

First, I think you are all wrong in your approach to women's physical fitness for combat. While it is true that if you took an "average" female vs an "average" male the male is going to be stronger, but if you take your female subject from the top 10% of all women (height, weight, physical conditioning) I suspect that they would be comparable or superior to your average male. Obviously, tiny, petite women aren't going to be seeking combat, but their are plenty of well conditioned, physically fit women who may want that opportunity for equality in the armed forces. One of my 8th grade female students has gone on to become Brigade commander of the Pinon High School JROTC, leads the brigade's "Ranger" Battalion in physical skills (and they do the extended road marches and extra physical conditioning), and is a state finalist in Cross Country. She wants to make the Army her career and wants to be in a combat unit. And I'll tell you, I wouldn't want to be in her sights on a battlefield... she's one tough Navajo warrior. So, yea, she could have that chance if she wants it.

Second, the arguments you guys are putting out there are the same ones that were used to oppose female police officers, fire fighters, heavy machine equipment operators and so forth. I thought we were past this sexism of defending "men only" careers.

Third, I agree with the logistics problems of having men and women serving in a really close living environment like a combat platoon or squad, but I don't see any problem with having all female units. In fact, I suspect that women would make better scout and reconnaissance units and definitely great sniper teams. We're naturally "sneakier"... haven't you guys had your wife sneak up and surprise you? LOL

I might add that after my service overseas in SE Asia, I came back in 1972 to the US for my final year of service in the army to become an intelligence briefer for a 10th Special Forces "A" team (I was Military Intelligence). Although in a non-combat support role, I was required to get out there every morning and do the conditioning drills and several miles of running. Now, admittedly, most of the 10th were slavic exiles (it was targeted on East Europe in the event of World War III) and a bit older than the "Rambo" image you might have had of green berets back in 1972. They surprised me actually... highly trained in stuff like Nuclear demolition... HALO... all kinds of specialties... but most of them weren't what I expected physically. Anyway, I was quite concerned that first morning, but soon found I was having no problem keeping up with those guys as I heard the huffing and puffing going on around me. Just a bit of memorabilia I'm throwing in here.

Women should have the opportunity to serve in any position in the US Military if they can do the job... period. Logistical problems can be handled, they aren't a dis-qualifier... only a poor excuse. Women should also be drafted if we ever re-establish the draft. Actually, I think everyone (no exceptions) should have to serve their country in some fashion for a year or two after high school... military or some civilian service. I think our country would be the better for it.

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

Want Navajo Nation Photos? Go to:
http://fardareismai.piczo.com/?cr=4&rfm=y

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 126
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 2:12:29 AM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3079
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: online
Sorry rhonda, alot of women on fire and police departments are not holding their on. Thats the truth of it. I have to disagree with you there.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I guess I should put my two cents in here.

First, I think you are all wrong in your approach to women's physical fitness for combat. While it is true that if you took an "average" female vs an "average" male the male is going to be stronger, but if you take your female subject from the top 10% of all women (height, weight, physical conditioning) I suspect that they would be comparable or superior to your average male. Obviously, tiny, petite women aren't going to be seeking combat, but their are plenty of well conditioned, physically fit women who may want that opportunity for equality in the armed forces. One of my 8th grade female students has gone on to become Brigade commander of the Pinon High School JROTC, leads the brigade's "Ranger" Battalion in physical skills (and they do the extended road marches and extra physical conditioning), and is a state finalist in Cross Country. She wants to make the Army her career and wants to be in a combat unit. And I'll tell you, I wouldn't want to be in her sights on a battlefield... she's one tough Navajo warrior. So, yea, she could have that chance if she wants it.

Second, the arguments you guys are putting out there are the same ones that were used to oppose female police officers, fire fighters, heavy machine equipment operators and so forth. I thought we were past this sexism of defending "men only" careers.

Third, I agree with the logistics problems of having men and women serving in a really close living environment like a combat platoon or squad, but I don't see any problem with having all female units. In fact, I suspect that women would make better scout and reconnaissance units and definitely great sniper teams. We're naturally "sneakier"... haven't you guys had your wife sneak up and surprise you? LOL

I might add that after my service overseas in SE Asia, I came back in 1972 to the US for my final year of service in the army to become an intelligence briefer for a 10th Special Forces "A" team (I was Military Intelligence). Although in a non-combat support role, I was required to get out there every morning and do the conditioning drills and several miles of running. Now, admittedly, most of the 10th were slavic exiles (it was targeted on East Europe in the event of World War III) and a bit older than the "Rambo" image you might have had of green berets back in 1972. They surprised me actually... highly trained in stuff like Nuclear demolition... HALO... all kinds of specialties... but most of them weren't what I expected physically. Anyway, I was quite concerned that first morning, but soon found I was having no problem keeping up with those guys as I heard the huffing and puffing going on around me. Just a bit of memorabilia I'm throwing in here.

Women should have the opportunity to serve in any position in the US Military if they can do the job... period. Logistical problems can be handled, they aren't a dis-qualifier... only a poor excuse. Women should also be drafted if we ever re-establish the draft. Actually, I think everyone (no exceptions) should have to serve their country in some fashion for a year or two after high school... military or some civilian service. I think our country would be the better for it.



_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to rhondabrwn)
Post #: 127
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 5:20:09 AM   
rhondabrwn


Posts: 1894
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Sorry rhonda, alot of women on fire and police departments are not holding their on. Thats the truth of it. I have to disagree with you there.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I guess I should put my two cents in here.

First, I think you are all wrong in your approach to women's physical fitness for combat. While it is true that if you took an "average" female vs an "average" male the male is going to be stronger, but if you take your female subject from the top 10% of all women (height, weight, physical conditioning) I suspect that they would be comparable or superior to your average male. Obviously, tiny, petite women aren't going to be seeking combat, but their are plenty of well conditioned, physically fit women who may want that opportunity for equality in the armed forces. One of my 8th grade female students has gone on to become Brigade commander of the Pinon High School JROTC, leads the brigade's "Ranger" Battalion in physical skills (and they do the extended road marches and extra physical conditioning), and is a state finalist in Cross Country. She wants to make the Army her career and wants to be in a combat unit. And I'll tell you, I wouldn't want to be in her sights on a battlefield... she's one tough Navajo warrior. So, yea, she could have that chance if she wants it.

Second, the arguments you guys are putting out there are the same ones that were used to oppose female police officers, fire fighters, heavy machine equipment operators and so forth. I thought we were past this sexism of defending "men only" careers.

Third, I agree with the logistics problems of having men and women serving in a really close living environment like a combat platoon or squad, but I don't see any problem with having all female units. In fact, I suspect that women would make better scout and reconnaissance units and definitely great sniper teams. We're naturally "sneakier"... haven't you guys had your wife sneak up and surprise you? LOL

I might add that after my service overseas in SE Asia, I came back in 1972 to the US for my final year of service in the army to become an intelligence briefer for a 10th Special Forces "A" team (I was Military Intelligence). Although in a non-combat support role, I was required to get out there every morning and do the conditioning drills and several miles of running. Now, admittedly, most of the 10th were slavic exiles (it was targeted on East Europe in the event of World War III) and a bit older than the "Rambo" image you might have had of green berets back in 1972. They surprised me actually... highly trained in stuff like Nuclear demolition... HALO... all kinds of specialties... but most of them weren't what I expected physically. Anyway, I was quite concerned that first morning, but soon found I was having no problem keeping up with those guys as I heard the huffing and puffing going on around me. Just a bit of memorabilia I'm throwing in here.

Women should have the opportunity to serve in any position in the US Military if they can do the job... period. Logistical problems can be handled, they aren't a dis-qualifier... only a poor excuse. Women should also be drafted if we ever re-establish the draft. Actually, I think everyone (no exceptions) should have to serve their country in some fashion for a year or two after high school... military or some civilian service. I think our country would be the better for it.




That may be so (I have no recollection of seeing any documentation of how women are failing as police officers or fire(wo)men though). However a lot of them must be working successfully or we would be seeing a lot of demand to remove them.

However, my point is not that any woman can serve in a combat role any more than an "any woman" can be a fighter pilot. I'm just arguing that there are women out there who can hold their own and should be given that opportunity. I'm with you if you are arguing that standards must be kept up and no woman (or man) should be placed into a job that they are not capable of fulfilling.

I was 6'2" and 158 pounds when I was in the army and I had no desire to be given an M-16 and sent into the jungle to fight! Still, I think I could have held my own if USARV HQ had been attacked, at least as well as all the other paper pushers in that big building on the hill at Bien Hoa! I had an M-16 and a bandoleer of filled magazines in my quarters. Me and the other four women in our tiny little MI unit (we all had specialized college degrees and education that were useful). Did some interesting stuff, too bad I can't talk about a lot of it. My time with the 10th SF was really full of top secret clearance stuff, mostly about nuclear demolitions and planned sabotage in an un-named Warsaw Pact country. It was too bad that when I got out of the Army it was the wrong time to get into the CIA or DIA (which I tried to do) since in 1972 they were cutting not hiring. I often wonder how my life would have been so different if I had become a CIA spook LOL Probably better the way things worked out, no regrets.

Anyway, I'm just saying women should have their equal chance at any job that they can do and I think we can do a lot more than you guys give us credit for. :)

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

Want Navajo Nation Photos? Go to:
http://fardareismai.piczo.com/?cr=4&rfm=y

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 128
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 10:12:53 AM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 910
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn
Anyway, I'm just saying women should have their equal chance at any job that they can do and I think we can do a lot more than you guys give us credit for. :)


Here is where I can agree with you.
But, you may not with me?

Women as firemen stink. Fire training has been "dumbed down" to allow women to join. Not on an equal basis but, on a skewed basis. Hand a woman a forty foot ladder and watch her stumble around. Tell here to grab the 4" hose line and see what happens when you turn the water on. Have her do a dead man lift and throw a 170lb firemen (as part of a rescue) onto her shoulder and run for safety.

Same with police work. They can not do many things that males can do.

If women want to do equal work they should pass the PT and tasks equally.

Just sayin'!

RR


_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to rhondabrwn)
Post #: 129
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 1:14:18 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2816
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: the pale blue dot
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn
That may be so (I have no recollection of seeing any documentation of how women are failing as police officers or fire(wo)men though). However a lot of them must be working successfully or we would be seeing a lot of demand to remove them.


Because we all know Government and unions make everyone pull their fair share , unions would never put up with incompetence, never …………..lol

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 130
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 1:21:12 PM   
wodin


Posts: 7704
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
I have met some women though who could knock a man out in one punch..just saying

_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 131
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 2:32:41 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3079
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: online
Ronda, I do agree with you on your second point. Yes they shoud be, if they all meet the same standards. That includes males, they must meet the standards to.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Sorry rhonda, alot of women on fire and police departments are not holding their on. Thats the truth of it. I have to disagree with you there.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I guess I should put my two cents in here.

First, I think you are all wrong in your approach to women's physical fitness for combat. While it is true that if you took an "average" female vs an "average" male the male is going to be stronger, but if you take your female subject from the top 10% of all women (height, weight, physical conditioning) I suspect that they would be comparable or superior to your average male. Obviously, tiny, petite women aren't going to be seeking combat, but their are plenty of well conditioned, physically fit women who may want that opportunity for equality in the armed forces. One of my 8th grade female students has gone on to become Brigade commander of the Pinon High School JROTC, leads the brigade's "Ranger" Battalion in physical skills (and they do the extended road marches and extra physical conditioning), and is a state finalist in Cross Country. She wants to make the Army her career and wants to be in a combat unit. And I'll tell you, I wouldn't want to be in her sights on a battlefield... she's one tough Navajo warrior. So, yea, she could have that chance if she wants it.

Second, the arguments you guys are putting out there are the same ones that were used to oppose female police officers, fire fighters, heavy machine equipment operators and so forth. I thought we were past this sexism of defending "men only" careers.

Third, I agree with the logistics problems of having men and women serving in a really close living environment like a combat platoon or squad, but I don't see any problem with having all female units. In fact, I suspect that women would make better scout and reconnaissance units and definitely great sniper teams. We're naturally "sneakier"... haven't you guys had your wife sneak up and surprise you? LOL

I might add that after my service overseas in SE Asia, I came back in 1972 to the US for my final year of service in the army to become an intelligence briefer for a 10th Special Forces "A" team (I was Military Intelligence). Although in a non-combat support role, I was required to get out there every morning and do the conditioning drills and several miles of running. Now, admittedly, most of the 10th were slavic exiles (it was targeted on East Europe in the event of World War III) and a bit older than the "Rambo" image you might have had of green berets back in 1972. They surprised me actually... highly trained in stuff like Nuclear demolition... HALO... all kinds of specialties... but most of them weren't what I expected physically. Anyway, I was quite concerned that first morning, but soon found I was having no problem keeping up with those guys as I heard the huffing and puffing going on around me. Just a bit of memorabilia I'm throwing in here.

Women should have the opportunity to serve in any position in the US Military if they can do the job... period. Logistical problems can be handled, they aren't a dis-qualifier... only a poor excuse. Women should also be drafted if we ever re-establish the draft. Actually, I think everyone (no exceptions) should have to serve their country in some fashion for a year or two after high school... military or some civilian service. I think our country would be the better for it.




That may be so (I have no recollection of seeing any documentation of how women are failing as police officers or fire(wo)men though). However a lot of them must be working successfully or we would be seeing a lot of demand to remove them.

However, my point is not that any woman can serve in a combat role any more than an "any woman" can be a fighter pilot. I'm just arguing that there are women out there who can hold their own and should be given that opportunity. I'm with you if you are arguing that standards must be kept up and no woman (or man) should be placed into a job that they are not capable of fulfilling.

I was 6'2" and 158 pounds when I was in the army and I had no desire to be given an M-16 and sent into the jungle to fight! Still, I think I could have held my own if USARV HQ had been attacked, at least as well as all the other paper pushers in that big building on the hill at Bien Hoa! I had an M-16 and a bandoleer of filled magazines in my quarters. Me and the other four women in our tiny little MI unit (we all had specialized college degrees and education that were useful). Did some interesting stuff, too bad I can't talk about a lot of it. My time with the 10th SF was really full of top secret clearance stuff, mostly about nuclear demolitions and planned sabotage in an un-named Warsaw Pact country. It was too bad that when I got out of the Army it was the wrong time to get into the CIA or DIA (which I tried to do) since in 1972 they were cutting not hiring. I often wonder how my life would have been so different if I had become a CIA spook LOL Probably better the way things worked out, no regrets.

Anyway, I'm just saying women should have their equal chance at any job that they can do and I think we can do a lot more than you guys give us credit for. :)



_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to rhondabrwn)
Post #: 132
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 2:34:21 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3079
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: online
Like I said earlier in this thread, the worst racket ball beating I ever got was from a female......Her mother loved watching.
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I have met some women though who could knock a man out in one punch..just saying



_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 133
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 3:31:28 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4591
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline
I want to join the army. But I am 46 and was told "your to old". That is discrimination.

The reason I want to join is because of the young woman below, a newly promoted captain:






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 134
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 3:34:49 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I have met some women though who could knock a man out in one punch..just saying


When I was fighting full contact 20 years ago I met a lot of women that could wipe the floor with any man.

There are little guys too that can not qualify to be fire fighters and such.

I'm all for women having an equal opportunity.

_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 135
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 3:47:15 PM   
berto


Posts: 3662
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Second, the arguments you guys are putting out there are the same ones that were used to oppose female police officers, fire fighters, heavy machine equipment operators and so forth. I thought we were past this sexism of defending "men only" careers.

I don't think anybody is arguing here whether to deny women military careers. The primary issue in doubt is whether to deny them front-line, direct-combat, ground soldier roles.

The American armed forces have perhaps the longest logistical "tail" of any nation. For every front-line combat soldier (or airman, sailor, or marine), there are at least ten or so personnel in various forms of background support.

So, better than 90% of the jobs in our armed forces are open to women. That's an awful lot of career opportunity right there.

Throw in some suitable combat positions (just not absolutely all of them) -- that adds several percentages more.

Is denying women the remaining few percentage of all military jobs "sexism" or "defending 'men only' careers"? I don't think so.

quote:

Third, I agree with the logistics problems of having men and women serving in a really close living environment like a combat platoon or squad, but I don't see any problem with having all female units.

That might work. Until it's observed that the female-only units are getting the softer duties and assignments (base security? UN peacekeepers?). I doubt very much that, in an actual shooting war, all-female companies/battalions/regiments would be assigned to forward, front-line positions alongside their male-only counterparts.

quote:

Women should also be drafted if we ever re-establish the draft.

I 100% agree with you on that.

quote:

Actually, I think everyone (no exceptions) should have to serve their country in some fashion for a year or two after high school... military or some civilian service. I think our country would be the better for it.

I'm not so sure about that.

quote:


However, my point is not that any woman can serve in a combat role any more than an "any woman" can be a fighter pilot. I'm just arguing that there are women out there who can hold their own and should be given that opportunity. I'm with you if you are arguing that standards must be kept up and no woman (or man) should be placed into a job that they are not capable of fulfilling.

Quoting from

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/339178/awol-republicans-editors:

quote:

They [Republicans withholding their objections] are doing so on naďve assumptions. The first is that physical standards will not change, and only those few women who meet ones developed for men will be placed on the front lines. The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey, has already breached that defense: “If we do decide that a particular standard is so high that a woman couldn’t make it, the burden is now on the service to come back and explain to the secretary, why is it that high? Does it really have to be that high?” Thus were the Armed Forces welcomed to the world of disparate impact that corporate attorneys have already come to know so well.

Thinking that standards will not be lowered or "gender-normed" flies in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

quote:

Anyway, I'm just saying women should have their equal chance at any job that they can do and I think we can do a lot more than you guys give us credit for. :)

I think there are all sorts of, yes, combat roles that women are eminently suited for, and should be allowed to perform (e.g., fighter pilot). (Not to mention the many, many suitable support roles.) I just don't feel comfortable with having women fighting "in the trenches" directly alongside, and among, the men. Must we strive for absolutely perfect equality and gender blindness here?

< Message edited by berto -- 2/1/2013 6:45:08 AM >


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(in reply to rhondabrwn)
Post #: 136
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 4:07:45 PM   
ckammp

 

Posts: 756
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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

I want to join the army. But I am 46 and was told "your to old". That is discrimination.

The reason I want to join is because of the young woman below, a newly promoted captain:








Glad to see Ft. Bragg attempting to make "Clean-up-the Post" detail more fun...

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 137
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 4:10:00 PM   
parusski


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From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

I want to join the army. But I am 46 and was told "your to old". That is discrimination.

The reason I want to join is because of the young woman below, a newly promoted captain:








Glad to see Ft. Bragg attempting to make "Clean-up-the Post" detail more fun...


I usually don't have to say this word. But WHAT?

_____________________________

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(in reply to ckammp)
Post #: 138
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 4:22:03 PM   
ckammp

 

Posts: 756
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From: Rear Area training facility
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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

I want to join the army. But I am 46 and was told "your to old". That is discrimination.

The reason I want to join is because of the young woman below, a newly promoted captain:








Glad to see Ft. Bragg attempting to make "Clean-up-the Post" detail more fun...


I usually don't have to say this word. But WHAT?



Ft. Bragg, being a very large and open post, accumulates a lot of trash, especially in the more distant ranges/ftx areas. Thus, a rotating detail is formed to go out and clean up the trash. An entire company will spend all day wandering around the woods with trash bags, making half-hearted attempts to beautify the surrounding area while wondering what delicious MRE will be served for lunch. I always thought the detail should qualify for hazardous duty pay, since the number of people going on sick-call the morning of was easily three times the normal rate.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 139
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 4:47:08 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4591
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

I want to join the army. But I am 46 and was told "your to old". That is discrimination.

The reason I want to join is because of the young woman below, a newly promoted captain:








Glad to see Ft. Bragg attempting to make "Clean-up-the Post" detail more fun...


I usually don't have to say this word. But WHAT?



Ft. Bragg, being a very large and open post, accumulates a lot of trash, especially in the more distant ranges/ftx areas. Thus, a rotating detail is formed to go out and clean up the trash. An entire company will spend all day wandering around the woods with trash bags, making half-hearted attempts to beautify the surrounding area while wondering what delicious MRE will be served for lunch. I always thought the detail should qualify for hazardous duty pay, since the number of people going on sick-call the morning of was easily three times the normal rate.


Ahhh, I see the light.

How about this thought concerning women in combat: An assumption is that only women who volunteer for combat will ever have to engage in it. It has been reasonably well understood until now that any man who joins the military, whatever his reasons for doing it, becomes the military’s to use as it sees fit. There is no reason to think women will be treated any differently by a military that officially denies that average differences between the sexes should have any impact on its treatment of individuals. (Nor will there be any reason to restrict draft registration to men — as we trust the courts will find in short order once this policy takes effect.) So, would you support allowing women to choose whether or not to be used in combat?? If you do, then you must allow men in the military to say they do not want to be in combat. Does anyone not see a problem here?

Many women who have volunteered to serve our country in the military do not wish to play a combat role. As people come to see that a woman who joins the military may be effectively signing up for the possibility of combat, the number of female applicants may actually decline. The military bureaucracy will presumably see that as another reason to lower standards.

_____________________________

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(in reply to ckammp)
Post #: 140
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 5:29:47 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

I want to join the army. But I am 46 and was told "your to old". That is discrimination.

The reason I want to join is because of the young woman below, a newly promoted captain:





Might I say ... tenshun ... hand saluuuuuute!

RR

_____________________________

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(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 141
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 9:14:52 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8036
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Its also comical, as you put it, to listen to you "progressives" who want to encourage women to be men and men to be women. I would rather be a caveman than a progressive liberal any day of the week.

I think this has been said already but is worth repeating. To me this has nothing to do with how fit you are or how many press-ups you can do. It's far more important than that. Like it or not, females have the babies, they bring life into the world and nurture those children - they have THE most important job in the world.


Well, in the UK I'd be a conservative, and the only organized political party I've ever joined was the Republicans, although I"m an independant now.

Like it or not, the ship has sailed. Women are in the military--in the US military over 20% of the force--and they're in combat. They don't need us men to tell them they're baby-machines. Quite a few US women aren't anymore for what it's worth. You could look up the numbers for women under 40, but I think it's about a third. Regardless, it isn't for us men to define their roles. They're citizens. It's their country too. They are the majority. And they can fight.

Also, FWIW, this policy change was proposed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff. That well-known nest of "progressives." Polls this week show the American public favors allowing women in combat at 66% pro. I saw it on TV, so it must be true.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 142
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 9:29:41 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8036
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

How about this thought concerning women in combat: An assumption is that only women who volunteer for combat will ever have to engage in it. It has been reasonably well understood until now that any man who joins the military, whatever his reasons for doing it, becomes the military’s to use as it sees fit. There is no reason to think women will be treated any differently by a military that officially denies that average differences between the sexes should have any impact on its treatment of individuals. (Nor will there be any reason to restrict draft registration to men — as we trust the courts will find in short order once this policy takes effect.) So, would you support allowing women to choose whether or not to be used in combat?? If you do, then you must allow men in the military to say they do not want to be in combat. Does anyone not see a problem here?

Many women who have volunteered to serve our country in the military do not wish to play a combat role. As people come to see that a woman who joins the military may be effectively signing up for the possibility of combat, the number of female applicants may actually decline. The military bureaucracy will presumably see that as another reason to lower standards.


Engage in slippery slope much?

You don't know how this is going to work at a nuts-and-bolts level. The services have a year or more to propose a transition plan, so no one can say how the system will look in five years. It's possible women will still be excluded from some jobs. While what you say is true about the military assigning personnel, the MOS is the primary driver of that and I don't see a lot of possibility that women will be forced into comabt MOSes against their will, at least not at first. IF it really bothers them they have the Navy and Air Force as options.

As for the draft, that's up to Congress. The Supreme Court has ruled that a male-only registration is constitutional. If Congress wants to change that they can and the Court will go along. The Court has historically given Congress extrordinary leeway in internal military matters.

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(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 143
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 10:55:31 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4591
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

I want to join the army. But I am 46 and was told "your to old". That is discrimination.

The reason I want to join is because of the young woman below, a newly promoted captain:





Might I say ... tenshun ... hand saluuuuuute!

RR


TENSHUN indeed.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 144
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/31/2013 11:01:35 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4591
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

How about this thought concerning women in combat: An assumption is that only women who volunteer for combat will ever have to engage in it. It has been reasonably well understood until now that any man who joins the military, whatever his reasons for doing it, becomes the military’s to use as it sees fit. There is no reason to think women will be treated any differently by a military that officially denies that average differences between the sexes should have any impact on its treatment of individuals. (Nor will there be any reason to restrict draft registration to men — as we trust the courts will find in short order once this policy takes effect.) So, would you support allowing women to choose whether or not to be used in combat?? If you do, then you must allow men in the military to say they do not want to be in combat. Does anyone not see a problem here?

Many women who have volunteered to serve our country in the military do not wish to play a combat role. As people come to see that a woman who joins the military may be effectively signing up for the possibility of combat, the number of female applicants may actually decline. The military bureaucracy will presumably see that as another reason to lower standards.


Engage in slippery slope much?

You don't know how this is going to work at a nuts-and-bolts level. The services have a year or more to propose a transition plan, so no one can say how the system will look in five years. It's possible women will still be excluded from some jobs. While what you say is true about the military assigning personnel, the MOS is the primary driver of that and I don't see a lot of possibility that women will be forced into comabt MOSes against their will, at least not at first. IF it really bothers them they have the Navy and Air Force as options.

As for the draft, that's up to Congress. The Supreme Court has ruled that a male-only registration is constitutional. If Congress wants to change that they can and the Court will go along. The Court has historically given Congress extrordinary leeway in internal military matters.


Yeah, but the U.S. Supreme Court also handed down the Dred-Scott decision, so you never know. I am glad that changed.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 145
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/3/2013 2:35:30 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2816
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: the pale blue dot
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn
Women should have the opportunity to serve in any position in the US Military if they can do the job... period.

I can’t believe anyone is delusional enough to really think this is about “ANY” job, cut the BS this isn’t about enlisted or even NCO’s this is about women CO’s looking for CIB's.............period


< Message edited by Sarge -- 2/3/2013 2:40:04 PM >

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 146
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/3/2013 3:38:09 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4591
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn
Women should have the opportunity to serve in any position in the US Military if they can do the job... period.

I can’t believe anyone is delusional enough to really think this is about “ANY” job, cut the BS this isn’t about enlisted or even NCO’s this is about women CO’s looking for CIB's.............period



Interesting, I had a female friend in the US Army say the same thing recently.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 147
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/3/2013 8:47:09 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 16017
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Interesting

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(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 148
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/3/2013 9:21:06 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4591
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Interesting


Quiet interesting.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 149
RE: Women In the Infantry - 2/4/2013 5:43:51 AM   
rhondabrwn


Posts: 1894
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline
Try this

First Pullups, Then Combat, Marines Say

I think this follows my own thinking on the issue.

And, for the record, we are not "baby machines" designed to stay at home and service our husbands as some here seem to be advocating. Yes, it is noble and important to be a mother and lifebringer, but to define the role of women in this narrow view is archaic and wrong.

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Post #: 150
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