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RE: Women In the Infantry

 
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RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/25/2013 5:18:11 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

70 years ago, it was against "social norm" for white and black soldiers to serve together. Times change. Get over yourselves.


..............nice try termite


How about a few more thoughts on equality.

1. Women's restrooms should now be open to men. If women have no problem defecating in front of male combat soldiers, they should be ok with me entering their public restrooms. Seriously.

2. Imagine the sheer joy our enemies would experience when they realize the horror Americans would feel if a female combat soldier could be tortured.

3. Whether women can kill or not is irrelevant. One study of a brigade operating in Iraq in 2007 showed that women sustained more casualties than their male counterparts and suffered more illnesses. Female soldiers experienced three times the evacuation rate of male soldiers. And of those evacuated for medical reasons, a shocking 74 percent were for pregnancy-related issues. Does anyone see a problem here???

Consider this: "A poll of military personnel was taken by the University of Connecticut (The Roper Poll) that showed that 56% of the women in “mixed gender units” became pregnant just prior or during there duty in Desert Storm. (Hoar 1) In the same poll, 46% claimed that the pregnancies, “had a negative impact on unit readiness” and 59% said it had a, “negative impact on morale.” (Hoar 1)" http://www.grossmont.net/musgrave2/Grammar%20Hospital/new%20pages/opponent.example.htm

"The Majority (of the Presidential Commission) recommended, and the alternative view concurred, that not only should women be excluded from direct land combat units and positions, but that existing service policy on such exclusion should also be codified into law.

Based on the testimony presented to the Commission, the exclusion policy should continue to include multiple-launch rocket systems and field artillery units. Despite technological advances, ground combat is no more refined, no less barbaric, and no less physically demanding that it has been throughout history. The ground combatant relies heavily on his physical strength and mental toughness for survival....

The Commission heard an abundance of expert testimony about the physical differences between men and women that can be summarized as follows:

Women's aerobic capacity is significantly lower, meaning they cannot carry as much as far as fast as men, and they are more susceptible to fatigue.

Women are shorter, have less muscle mass, and weigh less than men, placing them at a distinct disadvantage when performing tasks requiring a high level of muscular strength and aerobic capacity, like ground combat.

Women are also at a higher risk for exercise-induced injuries than men, with 2.13 times greater risk for lower extremity injuries, and 4.71 times greater risk for stress fractures.

In his testimony before the Commission, Dr. William Gregor, LTC, USA (Ret.), a military science professor at the University of Michigan, elaborated on the following differences:

In terms of physical capability, the upper five percent of women are at the level of the male median.

This means that in the very physically demanding ground combat environment, as a unit extends the physical envelope of its members, the men have room to improve, whereas the women have already reached the upper end of their limits."




_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 61
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/25/2013 6:07:48 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 17685
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

......Get over yourselves.
warspite1

My apologies for daring to express an opinion that did not accord with your own

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 62
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/25/2013 6:12:02 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

......Get over yourselves.
warspite1

My apologies for daring to express an opinion that did not accord with your own


I was shouted down and insulted earlier today while having a discussion with a group of people at a local cafe. A person of a certain political group I can't name(not American conservative) told me and the people I was talking with that we were "ignorant, sexist and probably racist.." just because we opposed women in combat. The hilarity of the moment was lost on this nut since one of the people in our group opposing women in combat was a WOMAN! I love those people I can't label(on the forum).

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 63
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/25/2013 8:37:43 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline
Jim, you summed it up.....I rest my case.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

As long as the physical requirements are the same with everyone I don't mind.


They are supposed to be, but the reality is that it simply doesn't work out that way in practice. Case in point, women on the police force. Call me sexist or whatever you want to, but in my opinion it was the stupidest decision ever made to assume women could handle any job men could and women in the military will be just as stupid and just as tragic.

Oakland PD is one of the toughest departments to work at due to all the violence officers have to contend with on a daily basis. Without fail every single female officer that I ever met in Oakland ended up working in the building within a year or so of being out on the streets of Oakland. Simply put none of them, not one, could handle the streets, yet they took up a slot on the force and needed to be tucked away somewhere safe.

Male officers almost without exception avoided going on calls with female officers due to their inability to handle whatever was thrown at them. I was once in a really knock down drag out fight with a large parole on one call and was getting pretty tired after a few minutes of rolling around on the ground with the man.

My "cover" officer was a female and had just been standing there watching, so I yelled up at her to do her job and help. She attached a handcuff to one of his wrists and then proceeded to get flung around by him while she held onto the other end of the cuffs, eventually he flung her into a wall and she then ran back to her car and got in under the premise of calling for more help (she had a portable radio), but she never came back to help. Because of her ineptness I had to use some serious force on the parole and sent him to the hospital. With decent backup that wouldn't have been necessary.

I'll never forget a radio transmission by one female officer who was in pursuit of a just stolen car. When the car crashed and the suspect bailed out, radio asked after a minute or two if the female officer was in foot pursuit as she hadn't made any more transmissions. She came on the radio and said, and I quote, "no way... he's supposed to have a gun right?". I'm sure the future victims that suspect robbed are really appreciative that women are on the force.

I can remember three different females who where beat to bloody pulps by male suspects because they tried to arrest them without backup and were simply over-powered by the men. All three were working in the building when they came back off sick duty and never went back to the streets. My medical file is about four feet tall if you stack all the folders on top of each other from all the injuries and surgeries I underwent, but I never once worked in the building because I got hurt and I can't remember a single male officer that did.

I can just imagine how bad this will be with women in combat now. Once the violence of war slaps them in the face they'll be crying loud and clear for desk jobs. It'll be just as pathetic I imagine, but in peace time they'll berate the men as sexist if they aren't allowed to do anything and everything the men are.

Jim




_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 64
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/25/2013 8:39:42 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline
Someone that doesn't know what he's talking about...Hmmmm!
quote:

ORIGINAL: laszlozoltan

1st let me state that I am very much anti-military- but I can have a lot of respect for a number of individual in the service.

I don't really see what the fuss is about how many push-ups or capacity to march with a loaded pack; not when a child can take out a highly trained seal. You join to serve to die for your country- but deny women the same right? What freedom are you fighting for? Whos ? Women are not persons ? they are not equal as citizens ? Who has the right to deny women the same privilege men share under the flag ? The thing that makes western society work is rule of law- the rule has to be applied fairly across the board.

For example: maybe black men can outrun white men, so lets apply a new standard of service for soldiers, as running capacity below a normal average for blacks, and use that rule to exlude 90% of the white men from joining.I don't see how, legally speaking a rule can be similarly made to exclude 90% of female "service-men" from combat roles. If women want to join and serve- how can they be denied ?



_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to laszlozoltan)
Post #: 65
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/25/2013 8:42:43 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline
Iaszlozotan, your not a congressman are you? Just pulling your chain.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: laszlozoltan

1st let me state that I am very much anti-military- but I can have a lot of respect for a number of individual in the service.

I don't really see what the fuss is about how many push-ups or capacity to march with a loaded pack; not when a child can take out a highly trained seal. You join to serve to die for your country- but deny women the same right? What freedom are you fighting for? Whos ? Women are not persons ? they are not equal as citizens ? (snip)


outstanding example of the thought process that went into this decision............



_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 66
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/25/2013 10:50:05 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Iaszlozotan, your not a congressman are you? Just pulling your chain.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: laszlozoltan

1st let me state that I am very much anti-military- but I can have a lot of respect for a number of individual in the service.

I don't really see what the fuss is about how many push-ups or capacity to march with a loaded pack; not when a child can take out a highly trained seal. You join to serve to die for your country- but deny women the same right? What freedom are you fighting for? Whos ? Women are not persons ? they are not equal as citizens ? (snip)


outstanding example of the thought process that went into this decision............




Also, using the argument about blacks in the military is tired and unoriginal. The exclusion of blacks from the military was based on (supposed) social inferiority, whereas the exclusion of women is based on biological differences that make it more difficult for them to serve in strenuous, harrowing combat conditions.

That analogy just won't work. Ever.



_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 67
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/25/2013 11:10:23 PM   
berto


Posts: 4319
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: online

quote:

I am not aware of any comparable crusade to create gender-integrated football teams. At least America knows what’s really important.

Heather MacDonald, writing ironically, quoted from: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/338613/wrong-women-warriors-heather-mac-donald

< Message edited by berto -- 1/26/2013 4:50:27 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 68
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 2:34:06 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto


quote:

I am not aware of any comparable crusade to create gender-integrated football teams. At least America knows what’s really important.

Heather Mac Donald, writing ironically, quoted from: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/338613/wrong-women-warriors-heather-mac-donald


I love Heather Mac Donald. She made an excellent point about gender-integrated football teams. Now, those who have no problem with women in combat, I propose we force the NFL to allow women to start on their football teams. Please respond and tell us where you stand on this issue.



_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to berto)
Post #: 69
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 3:04:46 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 911
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: laszlozoltan

1st let me state that I am very much anti-military- but I can have a lot of respect for a number of individual in the service.

I don't really see what the fuss is about how many push-ups or capacity to march with a loaded pack; not when a child can take out a highly trained seal. You join to serve to die for your country- but deny women the same right? What freedom are you fighting for? Whos ? Women are not persons ? they are not equal as citizens ? Who has the right to deny women the same privilege men share under the flag ? The thing that makes western society work is rule of law- the rule has to be applied fairly across the board.

For example: maybe black men can outrun white men, so lets apply a new standard of service for soldiers, as running capacity below a normal average for blacks, and use that rule to exlude 90% of the white men from joining.I don't see how, legally speaking a rule can be similarly made to exclude 90% of female "service-men" from combat roles. If women want to join and serve- how can they be denied ?


Is this serious thought?

First off, people do not join to "die for their country". That is one of the stupidest things I hear parroted often. A person joins to serve their country and protect it (and The Constitution) from outside harm. Any one who served can tell you that a soldier is willing to lay down his life for a fellow soldier.

Equal rights does not mean equal ability. Especially in the area of physical ability. It's not about push ups or the ability to keep up on a run. It's about a woman being able to assist picking up a wounded 200 lb man and carrying him to safety.
It's also about the male inherent instinct to protect females.
There are differences between men and women that should be kept that way.
The military has reduced standards for physical requirements to allow women to serve. That is a fact.

Gender difference exists and it needs to be addressed properly.

Does a woman have equal rights as a citizen, of course. Do those rights ensure her she can join and serve, of course. But those rights should also be pared with the ability to perform the tasks needed to be part of the team. Put them through the PT and obstacle courses from twenty to thirty years ago and require them to keep up will make them quite equal, if they can complete them.

Equality as you seem think is what turned the French Revolution into a bloody and negative event.

Why do you bring blacks into the discussion for? Most of America is so over this. Blacks were excluded from service due to the thoughts of people like Woodrow Wilson and Margret Sanger. Google them and find out what real racism was like a hundred years ago and who was responsible for it's institutionalization that continued into the early and even to the late fifties.
When equal justice is applied, blacks serve in the military equally to any other race. They need to pass the physical and mental tests expected of all soldiers. If women were kept to those standards they could serve but not in ground combat roles.

Failure to see that women are different and black men are the same, by you, is really a scary thought. Our nation has overcome quite a lot in the last 50 years. And, in the last fifty we also have gone down some severe rabbit holes of progressive thought.

RR

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to laszlozoltan)
Post #: 70
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 3:07:33 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2819
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: the pale blue dot
Status: offline
You’re making the mistake they have a valid point, they don’t !

You’re going to be hard pressed to find one pro advocate that has or ever had any skin in the game. Sure you will see reference to historical accounts reinforcing their pov/mental gymnastics but as we’ve seen on this thread they will be out of context…….sure the Red Army use women but it was due to pure necessity, I can find historical reference to children and senior citizens being used on frontlines to an advantage , hell we’ve even seen this decision equated to the (predictable) race strawman ………….lol

It’s hard to debate here at Matrix what we all know was a purely a political play, believe me the hippies here know this and will use their hit ‘n run tactics to censor all difference of opinion……..don’t buy in,it will only play into their intolerance and shutdown the thread.

Like I’ve said no one can come up with just one relevant example on how this in a large scale helps our strategic advantage over our enemy ?

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 71
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 3:12:40 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner


quote:

ORIGINAL: laszlozoltan

1st let me state that I am very much anti-military- but I can have a lot of respect for a number of individual in the service.

I don't really see what the fuss is about how many push-ups or capacity to march with a loaded pack; not when a child can take out a highly trained seal. You join to serve to die for your country- but deny women the same right? What freedom are you fighting for? Whos ? Women are not persons ? they are not equal as citizens ? Who has the right to deny women the same privilege men share under the flag ? The thing that makes western society work is rule of law- the rule has to be applied fairly across the board.

For example: maybe black men can outrun white men, so lets apply a new standard of service for soldiers, as running capacity below a normal average for blacks, and use that rule to exlude 90% of the white men from joining.I don't see how, legally speaking a rule can be similarly made to exclude 90% of female "service-men" from combat roles. If women want to join and serve- how can they be denied ?


Is this serious thought?

First off, people do not join to "die for their country". That is one of the stupidest things I hear parroted often. A person joins to serve their country and protect it (and The Constitution) from outside harm. Any one who served can tell you that a soldier is willing to lay down his life for a fellow soldier.

Equal rights does not mean equal ability. Especially in the area of physical ability. It's not about push ups or the ability to keep up on a run. It's about a woman being able to assist picking up a wounded 200 lb man and carrying him to safety.
It's also about the male inherent instinct to protect females.
There are differences between men and women that should be kept that way.
The military has reduced standards for physical requirements to allow women to serve. That is a fact.

Gender difference exists and it needs to be addressed properly.

Does a woman have equal rights as a citizen, of course. Do those rights ensure her she can join and serve, of course. But those rights should also be pared with the ability to perform the tasks needed to be part of the team. Put them through the PT and obstacle courses from twenty to thirty years ago and require them to keep up will make them quite equal, if they can complete them.

Equality as you seem think is what turned the French Revolution into a bloody and negative event.

Why do you bring blacks into the discussion for? Most of America is so over this. Blacks were excluded from service due to the thoughts of people like Woodrow Wilson and Margret Sanger. Google them and find out what real racism was like a hundred years ago and who was responsible for it's institutionalization that continued into the early and even to the late fifties.
When equal justice is applied, blacks serve in the military equally to any other race. They need to pass the physical and mental tests expected of all soldiers. If women were kept to those standards they could serve but not in ground combat roles.

Failure to see that women are different and black men are the same, by you, is really a scary thought. Our nation has overcome quite a lot in the last 50 years. And, in the last fifty we also have gone down some severe rabbit holes of progressive thought.

RR


Very well stated Mr. RR. But sarge, unfortunately, has a good point. Certain people can only use hit and run tactics and will not engage in discussion when logic is used.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 72
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 4:40:18 PM   
Qwixt

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

It’s hard to debate here at Matrix what we all know was a purely a political play, believe me the hippies here know this and will use their hit ‘n run tactics to censor all difference of opinion……..don’t buy in,it will only play into their intolerance and shutdown the thread.



So who are the hippies here? Must be the ones that do not agree with you. Only a handful of people have voiced the pro view, and their posts have been dry humped to oblivion. Your post acts like the opposing view is nefarious and out to get your point of view shutdown. It's pretty ****ing hilarious actually. About 68 posts against and 3 or 4 posts for it. Poor persecuted you.

< Message edited by Qwixt -- 1/26/2013 6:22:26 PM >

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 73
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 4:49:47 PM   
berto


Posts: 4319
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

quote:

I am not aware of any comparable crusade to create gender-integrated football teams. At least America knows what’s really important.

Heather MacDonald, writing ironically, quoted from: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/338613/wrong-women-warriors-heather-mac-donald

I love Heather MacDonald. She made an excellent point about gender-integrated football teams. Now, those who have no problem with women in combat, I propose we force the NFL to allow women to start on their football teams. Please respond and tell us where you stand on this issue.

Ms. MacDonald's ironic point being, of course, that it's apparently okay to trifle with our nation's defenses, but (American) football -- no, let's not dare socially experiment with something so sacrosanct and imporant as that.

Women in pro football? Some male players hold back; others hit them harder. A women player is grievously injured; the "perpetrators" are drummed out of the sport, charged with a "hate crime" even. Coed showers and locker rooms. Claims of groping and fondling in the tackles and pileups. "Penalty flag thrown, illegal sexual pass, 15 yards!" Charges of pay discrimination. Recriminations of sexism, endless controversy, ever more scandals... The chaos, the chaos. The ruination of a once grand sport.

_____________________________

Early MusiChicago, http://earlymusichicago.org
PIKT, http://pikt.org
Campaign Series Lead Programmer, http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=226
AGElint debugging toolkit, http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2978333

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 74
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 6:10:30 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 911
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski
Very well stated Mr. RR. But sarge, unfortunately, has a good point. Certain people can only use hit and run tactics and will not engage in discussion when logic is used.


Yes, my friend, Sarge does have a point.
Sometimes I feel that I am compelled to respond to falsehoods and misdirection.
I'm sure that the staff at Matrix can see a "drive by" when it comes, and do not knee jerk their reactions to it.

And, those who run from a logical discussion just make themselves so much smaller in the end?

RR



_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 75
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 7:12:44 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski
Very well stated Mr. RR. But sarge, unfortunately, has a good point. Certain people can only use hit and run tactics and will not engage in discussion when logic is used.


Yes, my friend, Sarge does have a point.
Sometimes I feel that I am compelled to respond to falsehoods and misdirection.
I'm sure that the staff at Matrix can see a "drive by" when it comes, and do not knee jerk their reactions to it.

And, those who run from a logical discussion just make themselves so much smaller in the end?

RR




Well apparently we are in the minority. From what I read MOST posters think women in combat is just groovy.

Open up college and pro football to women-otherwise women are being discriminated against.

Remember the "separate but equal" arguments? I propose all women's sports be merged with male sports. No more separate college or pro basketball teams. Hell, women should box men. Women must be integrated, otherwise this "separate but equal" status quo will hold women back and hurt their feelings.

Qwixt, respond to the proposals to force the NFL, NCAA and NBA to integrate teams. If women can be in combat then they obviously can play on the same sports teams as men. Right? Intellectual honesty requires women linebackers next to those evil male linebackers.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 76
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 7:51:49 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2819
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: the pale blue dot
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

So who are the hippies here?


You might be a hippie if you think "tolerance" is reserved for those who share your opinions, views, and ideals………….

You might be a hippie if you can find racist code-words in any subject matter of your choosing ………….

You might be a hippie if you think there’s a war on women in the States that’s unimaginable but putting women in combat abroad is perfectly logical ………………..

lucky for me the 1st Amendment makes it easy to point them out …………..

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 77
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 8:33:34 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

So who are the hippies here?


You might be a hippie if you think "tolerance" is reserved for those who share your opinions, views, and ideals………….

You might be a hippie if you can find racist code-words in any subject matter of your choosing ………….

You might be a hippie if you think there’s a war on women in the States that’s unimaginable but putting women in combat abroad is perfectly logical ………………..

lucky for me the 1st Amendment makes it easy to point them out …………..



And here I will piggyback on the 1st Amendment argument. IF we can ignore the 2nd Amendment, the there should be absolutely no opposition to ignoring the 1st. Or the 4th Amendment-I mean who cares if we cut around the edges of search and seizure. How about we ignore the 6th Amendment-who needs jury trials, if we cant protect the kids.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 78
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 9:16:05 PM   
Qwixt

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

So who are the hippies here?


You might be a hippie if you think "tolerance" is reserved for those who share your opinions, views, and ideals………….

You might be a hippie if you can find racist code-words in any subject matter of your choosing ………….

You might be a hippie if you think there’s a war on women in the States that’s unimaginable but putting women in combat abroad is perfectly logical ………………..

lucky for me the 1st Amendment makes it easy to point them out …………..



You really love your strawman arguments. I will give you that. No one was trying to silence you, and then you called everyone trying to do that to you, which I remind you is no one, a hippie, because they like to fly by and get these threads locked. Then you went from that to tolerance, which you show little of, and now it's on to the 1st amendment.

You should be writing for soap operas or something. Can't wait to see what's next.

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 79
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 9:30:23 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4660
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

So who are the hippies here?


You might be a hippie if you think "tolerance" is reserved for those who share your opinions, views, and ideals………….

You might be a hippie if you can find racist code-words in any subject matter of your choosing ………….

You might be a hippie if you think there’s a war on women in the States that’s unimaginable but putting women in combat abroad is perfectly logical ………………..

lucky for me the 1st Amendment makes it easy to point them out …………..



You really love your strawman arguments. I will give you that. No one was trying to silence you, and then you called everyone trying to do that to you, which I remind you is no one, a hippie, because they like to fly by and get these threads locked. Then you went from that to tolerance, which you show little of, and now it's on to the 1st amendment.

You should be writing for soap operas or something. Can't wait to see what's next.


But why don't you respond to the ideas that women should play in the NFL, NBA, MLB and NCAA against men? Let's back away from hippies, strawmen and soap operas.

So, Qwixt, since blacks were discriminated against based on perceived(wrongly)social inferiority let's leave that tired argument alone. If you have no problem with women in combat, do you agree that women's restrooms should be open to men?? Should college sororities be open to men joining? Finally, should women's Olympic mountain biking, which has separate men's and women's competions, be integrated?

PLEASE just tell us you support these ideas. If you do, then I applaud your consistency.

< Message edited by parusski -- 1/26/2013 9:31:34 PM >


_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Qwixt)
Post #: 80
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 9:50:54 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2819
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: the pale blue dot
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

You really love your strawman arguments. I will give you that. No one was trying to silence you, and then you called everyone trying to do that to you, which I remind you is no one, a hippie, because they like to fly by and get these threads locked. Then you went from that to tolerance, which you show little of, and now it's on to the 1st amendment.

You should be writing for soap operas or something. Can't wait to see what's next.

What are you talking about …….
seriously why do you keep saying that, you might want to actually read what people are saying . I said don’t buy into Race or Politics being muzzle loaded into the debate. it doesn’t take Dick Tracy to figure something so out of context inserted into the conversation only has one motive.

Either way, I was just pulling your chain anyhow in my last post………
quote:

It’s hard to debate here at Matrix what we all know was a purely a political play, believe me the hippies here know this and will use their hit ‘n run tactics to censor all difference of opinion……..don’t buy in,it will only play into their intolerance and shutdown the thread.




(in reply to Qwixt)
Post #: 81
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/26/2013 11:02:29 PM   
Qwixt

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

But why don't you respond to the ideas that women should play in the NFL, NBA, MLB and NCAA against men? Let's back away from hippies, strawmen and soap operas.

So, Qwixt, since blacks were discriminated against based on perceived(wrongly)social inferiority let's leave that tired argument alone. If you have no problem with women in combat, do you agree that women's restrooms should be open to men?? Should college sororities be open to men joining? Finally, should women's Olympic mountain biking, which has separate men's and women's competions, be integrated?

PLEASE just tell us you support these ideas. If you do, then I applaud your consistency.


Here is my post (#12) from the first page:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

I don't think they belong on the front lines because men and women are not physically equal. They just aren't. I was in a combat MOS in the army, 12B, and the physical lifting requirements were quite demanding. I think most females would have been a weakness.

Our battalion had a 100 mile march context to see which two companies would represent it in an event. It was between 4 companies that sent about 15-20 people each. Two of them were support companies with females, and the other two were combat (like mine) or just sent men. The two with females couldn't even complete the event.


You really need to read better.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 82
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/27/2013 9:01:25 AM   
wodin


Posts: 7924
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
I'm a Hippy. Long hair..love psych music..peace and love

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(in reply to Qwixt)
Post #: 83
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/27/2013 9:08:31 AM   
laszlozoltan

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 3/14/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

I served 10 yrs in the US Army. 
....edit
  Also what happens when one is captured?  Fair treatment no such thing.  I would come home beaten and broken, a woman would come home beaten, broken, raped and maybe pregnant.  This is what bothers me.


I think there is the bigger picture that a lot of folks seem to not see because of the proverbial tree in the forest. Your last sentence suggests that it will bother you what could happen to a woman soldier, which says it won't bother you if it happens to a male. I think that is a natural instinct- but I think we need to recognize that war is an insane horror that we must try to avoid. Think of it, a political or cultural difference of ideas cause masses of people who never met to race to a front line to slaughter. I think that should bother you, and perhaps by placing women in combat roles society might give a second thought to negotiating disagreements peacefully.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 84
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/27/2013 9:33:44 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 17685
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: laszlozoltan


quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

I served 10 yrs in the US Army. 
....edit
  Also what happens when one is captured?  Fair treatment no such thing.  I would come home beaten and broken, a woman would come home beaten, broken, raped and maybe pregnant.  This is what bothers me.


..... and perhaps by placing women in combat roles society might give a second thought to negotiating disagreements peacefully.
warspite1

Not likely though is it??

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to laszlozoltan)
Post #: 85
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/27/2013 10:24:02 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'm a Hippy. Long hair..love psych music..peace and love



Most of my hair is gone. No being a hippy for me.

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After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 86
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/27/2013 10:38:30 AM   
laszlozoltan

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 3/14/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner


Is this serious thought?

First off, people do not join to "die for their country". That is one of the stupidest things I hear parroted often. A person joins to serve their country and protect it (and The Constitution) from outside harm. Any one who served can tell you that a soldier is willing to lay down his life for a fellow soldier.

I was being facetious about the dying for you country, just like the joke that you joined to serve your country and protect it and the constitution- because be honest, you didn't- you did it to serve yourself by agreeing to try to kill someone else on orders from your commander, right? you maybe finished high school and had nowhere to go other than flipping burgers at mcdonalds, or you got a college degree in basket weaving or some other field that left you pretty much unqualified for doing anything more than flipping burgers at mcdonalds, except this time you'd have a sheepskin to hang on the wall beside the grill station- so you thought you'd escape the rat race that everyone else has to fight through and go into this gentle, mans world where all your decisions are made for you; a world of men, living with men, sleeping with men, eating, showering, crapping and no women to bother you. Ah yes ! How proud you must have felt when you signed up and got though basic training- but the real secret that you never told anyone is why you really joined. Thats the joke.

Equal rights does not mean equal ability. Especially in the area of physical ability. It's not about push ups or the ability to keep up on a run. It's about a woman being able to assist picking up a wounded 200 lb man and carrying him to safety.
It's also about the male inherent instinct to protect females.
There are differences between men and women that should be kept that way.
The military has reduced standards for physical requirements to allow women to serve. That is a fact.

Gender difference exists and it needs to be addressed properly.

Question: how many soldiers could meet the standard requirements 5 years into the service ? most folk get older get lazier, get comfortable, get fat. gender difference means nothing- not in the age of firearms, neither does age, or health- a 200 pound soldier is too heavy; there are no 200 pound marathon runners, or competitive swimmers or cyclists- you go on about physical ability, but ignore the limitations- what purpose do push-ups serve in combat ? women peak around age 30 and maintain physical strength and ability through to age 50+ while men generally peak around 30 and start to decline thereafter. You are just pulling rules for standard requirements as though it has any relevance to the job- exerting political force through the barrel of a gun, which as we have seen since firearms came into the picture, is childs play. so wheres your gender difference now ? sorry mr delta force ranger commander, your 24hour record pushups meant nothing to the kid who got you with the ak 47

Does a woman have equal rights as a citizen, of course. Do those rights ensure her she can join and serve, of course. But those rights should also be pared with the ability to perform the tasks needed to be part of the team. Put them through the PT and obstacle courses from twenty to thirty years ago and require them to keep up will make them quite equal, if they can complete them.

Equality as you seem think is what turned the French Revolution into a bloody and negative event.

Why do you bring blacks into the discussion for?

boy, my argument went way over your head in that one huh ? I am wondering how Dr Suess might put this for you, Sam; I used as hypothetical ( that means "I made it up for the sake of the argument") statement to construct a rule which I could use to exclude a percentage of people (they be of any other color) for no other reason than the sake of exclusion. The rest of your post is just rubbish as well, and as you seem to be unable to deal with concepts I might as well leave this at that.


(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 87
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/27/2013 11:52:20 AM   
martok


Posts: 807
Joined: 8/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

As long as the physical requirements are the same with everyone I don't mind.

This is my view as well. I'll admit I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea, but would be okay with it as long this was the case.

Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, it doesn't seem like it's going to work out that way.





quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

"In the 1990s, the British army, under political pressure to put women in traditional male jobs, adopted a “gender-free” policy with identical fitness requirements for both sexes and abandoned its “gender fair” system of separate standards.
A decade later, Dr. Ian Gemmel conducted a study for the British army’s personnel center. He found that the number of women who could qualify for basic training decreased in the “gender-free” system, as more women dropped out of training because of injury, compared with the “gender fair” system of separate fitness requirements.
This study confirms and quantifies the excess risk for women when they undertake the same arduous training as male recruits,” Dr. Gemmel reported."



I would have no objection to a "gender-free" policy as outlined above. That may be the best way to go (if there is a "best" way, that is).



_____________________________

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(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 88
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/27/2013 12:45:36 PM   
SapperAstro

 

Posts: 208
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Penrith, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Does a woman have equal rights as a citizen, of course. Do those rights ensure her she can join and serve, of course. But those rights should also be pared with the ability to perform the tasks needed to be part of the team. Put them through the PT and obstacle courses from twenty to thirty years ago and require them to keep up will make them quite equal, if they can complete them.



This covers things nicely.

quote:

Question: how many soldiers could meet the standard requirements 5 years into the service ?


They have to. It is all part of the deal. Constant training, with yearly testing.

I think somebody broke laszlozoltans' mind. Congrats guys...





< Message edited by SapperAstro -- 1/27/2013 12:50:38 PM >

(in reply to martok)
Post #: 89
RE: Women In the Infantry - 1/27/2013 1:04:56 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2819
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: the pale blue dot
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laszlozoltan

I was being facetious about the dying for you country, just like the joke that you joined to serve your country and protect it and the constitution- because be honest, you didn't- you did it to serve yourself by agreeing to try to kill someone else on orders from your commander, right?

Question: how many soldiers could meet the standard requirements 5 years into the service ? most folk get older get lazier, get comfortable, get fat. gender difference means nothing- not in the age of firearms, neither does age, or health- a 200 pound soldier is too heavy; there are no 200 pound marathon runners, or competitive swimmers or cyclists- you go on about physical ability, but ignore the limitations- what purpose do push-ups serve in combat ?

What is wrong with you ?
why are you attacking ‘n mocking someone’s military service , it’s obvious you have a strange/bazaar opinion of the military and its personal...........but certainly there is places on the web you can vent your outrage of both besides a wargamming forum …………


< Message edited by Sarge -- 1/27/2013 1:05:12 PM >

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 90
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