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fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing

 
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fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/23/2013 5:59:19 PM   
goran007

 

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First of all, thank you devs for ongoing support of best game ever made...

There is one thing that i always missed from this game i don't know why this issue wasn't raised before, but anyway now is as good time as ever.

After 1943, after achieving air superiority fighters were regularly used as ground support or were just strafing infrastructure, command&control, bases, airports, basically anything while they had ammo. Hell they even strafed cars on the roads ( Rommel was wounded in regular car, only because it was on a road during day)

Question is why no one uses fighters for sweet strafing/100ft bombing? Well, we loose more precious aces and p47 frames to AA than some poor Jap's loose in 'worthless' damaged squads or few lost tanks.
(same problem is with dive bombers, they are just too fragile for even non existing flank, so they aren't used for closing runways/destroying ac)

Do I agree with recent buffs to AA, I do, and it should have been buffed against high flying aircraft, but impact of AA on low flying aircraft is simply wrong.

Guns with low rate of fire like US 75mm, US 90mm, IJA 88mm, IJA 120mm just cant target and fire on low flying aircraft
Basically anything bigger than bofors 40mm is nearly useless and 75mm+ completely useless against strafing fighters.

IL2 experience against german 88 is according to viki:
A major threat to the Il-2 was German ground fire. In postwar interviews, Il-2 pilots reported 20 mm (0.79 in) and 37 mm (1.46 in) artillery as the primary threat. While the fabled 88 mm (3.46 in) calibre gun was formidable, low-flying Il-2s presented too fast-moving a target for the 88's relatively low rate of fire, and while occasional hits were scored Soviet pilots apparently did not treat the 88 with the same respect as high-altitude Western heavy bomber crews. Similarly the attempts in Finland during summer '44 to augment the small numbers of 20/40mm AA in the field army by heavier 76mm guns drawn from homeland defence proved also relatively ineffective and few Il-2s were downed despite attempting different tactics with time-fuzed fragmentation, contact-fuzed, and shrapnel ammunition: the heavy guns simply lacked the reaction times to take advantage of the brief firing opportunities presented by the low-altitude Il-2 attacks.[31] Single-barrel 20mm guns were also found somewhat inadequate due to limited firepower: one or two shells were often not enough to destroy the Il-2, and unless the Il-2 was attacking the gun itself, thus presenting effectively a stationary target, scoring more hits during a firing opportunity was rare.[31] However, a single hit from a 40mm AA gun was usually enough to bring down an Il-2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-2

How to implement? I would like to suggest that against strafing attack, dive bombing AA is calculated by ignoring any weapon bigger than 50mm, once aircraft is under 500 feet

Anyway i would like to have some decent use of those good late war aircraft like mosquito, hawker hurricane etc...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a94_1308789287

Would this make fighters too good in ground attack role? I have no idea, that's why we have beta tests:)





< Message edited by goran007 -- 1/23/2013 6:17:30 PM >
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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/23/2013 8:45:04 PM   
Barb


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Basic thing that is "wrong" with strafing attacks is that EACH SQAD in hex contributes to the AA fire - IIRC... IRL only a small fraction of them would be able to see/fire at aircraft. While infantry squads wouldn't down rugged planes like P-47 in drowes, they will damage a lot of them.

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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/23/2013 9:37:33 PM   
goran007

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Basic thing that is "wrong" with strafing attacks is that EACH SQAD in hex contributes to the AA fire - IIRC... IRL only a small fraction of them would be able to see/fire at aircraft. While infantry squads wouldn't down rugged planes like P-47 in drowes, they will damage a lot of them.


i do agree with first part, with 40X40 NM hex, there is no way every AA would be able to fire on low flying aircraft, but on other hand targets worth strafing aren't everywhere either. Its logical that lot of AA would be near pilots target.

Chance of shooting down p47 or nearly any late war (sealing tanks) aircraft with rifle bullets is virtually non existent. It's well know story of Robert S. Johnson in P47:

Johnson headed for the English Channel, but was intercepted by a single Fw 190. Unable to fight back, he maneuvered while under a series of attacks, and although sustaining further heavy damage from both 7.92mm and 20mm rounds, managed to survive until the German ran out of ammunition, who, after saluting him by rocking his wings, turned back. His opponent has never been identified, but Johnson could have been one of three victories claimed that day by the commander of III/JG 2, Oberst Egon Mayer.[2] [N 1]After landing, Johnson tried to count the bullet holes in his airplane, but when he passed 200, including 21, 20 mm cannon shell impacts, without even moving around the aircraft, he gave up.

< Message edited by goran007 -- 1/23/2013 10:37:57 PM >

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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/25/2013 12:49:11 AM   
dwg

 

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It still takes just one bullet to down an aircraft, might be the 1st hit, might be the 200th, but take out the right component, be it an aileron cable, a fuel line or whatever, or the pilot, and down she goes. I'm not sure what the ideal model is, but you can't exclude rifle fire, though nor should you overestimate it.

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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/25/2013 2:28:33 PM   
goran007

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dwg

It still takes just one bullet to down an aircraft, might be the 1st hit, might be the 200th, but take out the right component, be it an aileron cable, a fuel line or whatever, or the pilot, and down she goes. I'm not sure what the ideal model is, but you can't exclude rifle fire, though nor should you overestimate it.


It took 1 shell to sink the Hood but thats not the point, chance of destroying late war aircraft wwith rifle bullet is about the same as sinking BB with 5inch DD gun. It could happen but highly unlikely.

Ground fire against fighters sweeping at 100feet is way too strong. I dont know why, but the fact is noone uses mosquito or p47 for it, and that isent historical


< Message edited by goran007 -- 1/25/2013 2:30:08 PM >

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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/25/2013 2:40:32 PM   
Puhis

 

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No-one uses fighters as 100 feet because there's no point doing it. In this game level bombers can do the same, and do much it better.

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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/25/2013 3:13:35 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

No-one uses fighters as 100 feet because there's no point doing it. In this game level bombers can do the same, and do much it better.


and it is confusing a mythical thought that the game is a simlilation rather than play it as a game that causes the frustration and consternation displayed in this thread ..

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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/25/2013 4:11:24 PM   
goran007

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

No-one uses fighters as 100 feet because there's no point doing it. In this game level bombers can do the same, and do much it better.


Well thats exactly my point. When strategic bombers are used in tactical purpose they saturate relatively small area with the effect of primarly high target disruption. On the other hand tactical attack by fighter sweeps, dive bombers should make more killing/ammo used, only problem is they die/get damaged in droves...



< Message edited by goran007 -- 1/25/2013 4:12:10 PM >

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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/26/2013 7:04:47 AM   
inqistor


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Strafing fighters suppress enemy AA units - just check Pearl Harbor after initial KB attack, with standard setting - AA units have 75 disruption.

Although that does not seem to have that much impact. You probably lose more fighters in those attacks, than the number of saved bombers.

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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/26/2013 9:25:00 AM   
goran007

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Strafing fighters suppress enemy AA units - just check Pearl Harbor after initial KB attack, with standard setting - AA units have 75 disruption.

Although that does not seem to have that much impact. You probably lose more fighters in those attacks, than the number of saved bombers.


I didnt notice that disruption on aa, but thats a good thing. It would be realistic that larger caliber guns to stop fire once strafing begins and those guns should have much bigger chance to be destroyed by fighters. strafing should also have a higher chance of destroying arty in that hex.


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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/26/2013 2:04:23 PM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: goran007


quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Strafing fighters suppress enemy AA units - just check Pearl Harbor after initial KB attack, with standard setting - AA units have 75 disruption.

Although that does not seem to have that much impact. You probably lose more fighters in those attacks, than the number of saved bombers.


I didnt notice that disruption on aa, but thats a good thing.



That's an irrelevant thing. Any kind of bombing cause disruption for AA unit, that got nothing to do with fighters. And I think AA unit's disruption/fatigue and experience don't have any effect to AA fire.

It seems that you're asking major code change. Since Uncommon Valor this game series have loved bomb load over any other attribute. That's why biggest bombers are always best when you are bombing ground units, port or airfield. And light tactical bombers or fighter-bombers are pretty useless. Like it or not, you can be sure that is not going to change.

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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/26/2013 3:28:13 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

It seems that you're asking major code change. Since Uncommon Valor this game series have loved bomb load over any other attribute. That's why biggest bombers are always best when you are bombing ground units, port or airfield. And light tactical bombers or fighter-bombers are pretty useless. Like it or not, you can be sure that is not going to change.


and one of the reasons to use light bombers is to attack the troops close to your troops without hitting your troops....or least not as much ... the big bombers do not have any risk in this game of dropping huge bombloads and risk hitting one's own troops .. thus no need to employ light bombers except they exist and need something to do ...

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RE: fighters 100ft ground strafing and bombing - 1/26/2013 3:34:15 PM   
goran007

 

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I dont think it requires a code change. Dababes buffed AA in their scenario and its also a bit stronger in current beta patch. All it takes for sweeps/dive bombers to be effective is to disrupt or recalculate AA value to 1/2 to what is for high altitude bombing. That would simulate ineffectiveness of higher caliber/slower fireing guns on low flying air craft.

But maybe you are right, maybe it does take a code change...

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