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Atoll Invasion - 1/22/2013 4:04:58 PM   
millersan

 

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Need some advice. It's 2/43, PBEM, I'm Japanese and just invaded Canton (for the third try) with 5 units. Got a 2-1 but had 3000+ casualties. The US reg there has AV of zero as do most of my surviving units. One of my regiments is not fully off-loaded so my question is..................do I stop unloading troops so I can switch all units on the island to Defend and build up supplies?? I'm afraid if I unload the rest of the 90th then everyone will shock again. Been blowing the hell out of the place for weeks so not concerned about a counter attack but I have a feeling my boys can't make another shock attack and survive.
The rules and other posts seem to indicate that if any troops unload then everyone make a shock attack. I assume this is correct?

Thanks for any help/thoughts.
Post #: 1
RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/22/2013 5:51:20 PM   
BBfanboy


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Search this forum under the same heading and you will find lots of discussion of how to do atoll invasions, when shock attacks happen, supply issues, etc. Far more than I could summarize here! If you still have questions after that, post again in this thread.

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RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/22/2013 6:14:52 PM   
JocMeister

 

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I recently learned sort of how to do this myself. Its quite easy actually.

Blast away with everything you have for 2-3 weeks. THEN you invade!

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RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/22/2013 7:39:28 PM   
Barb


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I think that Shock attack is triggered by troop unloading. So if you stop unloading your regiment, and unload just pure supplies, then attack can be avoided - iirc.

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RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/22/2013 9:25:56 PM   
millersan

 

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From: Houston TX
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Thanks all for the help. All the previous posts on the subject seem to indicate that "any" troop unload will trigger everyone to shock although it is a bit fuzzy. I'll go with the "supply only"" option and see what happens.

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Post #: 5
RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/22/2013 10:50:18 PM   
ny59giants


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You really need to arrive at the atoll the day before your invasion so you can use all three unload phases before the shock attack. You need to try to use extra xAPs and APAs when you load up your Amphib TF as the Support and Motorized Support have higher load cost and unload slowly. You will lose some Adjusted AV if you are critically short of Support. It is helpful to have an Amphib TF with just xAKs or AKs loaded with just supplies to unload next to TF with troops. I place at least 1 CA or BB per Amphib TF to soak up CD gun hits. You will also need some BB TF to bombard the base and increase the disruption levels of the troops to be attacked. The old slow BBs on each side are great for these roles.

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RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/23/2013 2:27:47 AM   
guytipton41


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From: Houston, TX
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Hi millersan,

Banzai! Anything else is unmanly and unworthy of the Emperor. My guys are doing the bit from Braveheart where they slap their bare bottoms at your guys.

Cheers,
Guy




Attachment (1)

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RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/23/2013 6:53:54 PM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
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Well, in 1943 the Japanese get no landing bonus and really do not have the best ships for hitting an atoll. Remember that generally most of the troops go ashore first and then supply. With slow unloading ships that might mean your units are shocking at the end of the day with little or no supply. That usually can end in disaster. Best to use more landing ships than you need so your troops are dispersed and will land faster and as the Allies, I have a separate LST TF unloading just supply at the same time. Still, atoll attack are hard as heck for me.

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RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/25/2013 6:44:45 AM   
JocMeister

 

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My first atoll invasion ended in disaster as well. I actually posted a thread in here were I got some excellent advice! That thread is a must read for you!

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3212274&mpage=2&key=

After taking in the advice I´ve now manage two successful atoll invasions. Second one only 2 turns ago!

quote:

Ground combat at Baker Island (149,136)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 9542 troops, 191 guns, 202 vehicles, Assault Value = 344

Defending force 2009 troops, 18 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 25

Allied adjusted assault: 128

Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 128 to 1 (fort level 6)

Allied forces CAPTURE Baker Island !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender:
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(-), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
2531 casualties reported
Squads: 139 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 105 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 26 (26 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 3


Allied ground losses:
525 casualties reported
Squads: 18 destroyed, 29 disabled
Non Combat: 10 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 8 (2 destroyed, 6 disabled)
Vehicles lost 24 (11 destroyed, 13 disabled)


Assaulting units:
763rd Tank Battalion
23rd Marine Regiment
3rd Marine Regiment

Defending units:
82nd Naval Guard Unit
Yokosuka 6th SNLF
61st Naval Guard Unit
2nd Indpt SNLF Coy


Look at the AV of the defending units. I have been pounding that small atoll mostly from the air for 2 weeks. Had I landed right away I would have been smashed. You really have to exercise patience and use days for aerial and naval bombardment. I actually found aerial bombardment to be a lot more effective as it causes a lot of damage but don´t have to go back and rearm after every bombardment.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 9
RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/25/2013 4:38:39 PM   
millersan

 

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Thanks again for the help but please note that my post really only had one question..................."after the initial invasion does any future unloading of troops cause all units to shock again". I think I understand all the other aspects of Atoll invasions so no need to reply with that info. Seems to be a very important point so let me ask again. If after the initial invasion I unload anything other than supply then all units will shock again. Even an arty unit that can't shock will trigger an attack??
Does anyone know the answer??

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Post #: 10
RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/27/2013 6:41:52 AM   
CV 2

 

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As best I recall as long as you dont unload a parent unit, you can unload without attacking. That is to say, if a units parent is on a ship, dont unload it. If its on shore, there is no harm.

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that working.

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Post #: 11
RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/28/2013 1:22:26 AM   
topeverest

 

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You may be approaching the whole solution a bit reversed. the atoll hard to take. A much smaller force will occupy a much larger force. The trick as several have stated is before the invasion. Use the maximum number of APA / amphibious transports to get all units on land the first day. I use up to 20 AP's per unit. get them on in one pulse if at all possible. Take 4 times the supply you think you need. Bring Combat enginners and reserve troops. prep for the invasion if possible. bring surface fleet, and bombard, soften up with air bombardment so the disruption is higher. Select appropriate commanders for the ground units. All AV is not the same when it comes to atoll invasions.

once you are at the target, the combat algorithem takes over, and you are at its mercy, as I believe is the case here.

As to your follow on question, I always try to get the units all on in the first pulse (or first day at a minimum) so follow on invasion pulsing is not necessary. That said, I cannot refute or confirm CV-2's statement. I always seem to get the follow-on shock attack if I unload combat troops the next day, but I have never really searched for the parent - child relationship

good luck admiral.

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RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/28/2013 5:00:20 AM   
crsutton


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If you unload a single unit later on, that unit will shock and unless you have set the rest of your units to some sort of combat to support the landing unit the results could just decimate that single unit. That one follow on unit will shock but will not trigger the rest of your units to shock. I had a tank brigade go ashore and just evaporate because everybody else was defending. Just did this on a river crossing as well. Lost 99% of the combat squads in my veteran Indian division.

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Post #: 13
RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/28/2013 6:21:25 AM   
jmalter

 

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thing w/ Atoll attacks is the 6k-point stacking limit, the auto-shock attack, & supply spoilage.

1) bring your best guys (USMC RGT, not USA; 155 ART BTN, not 105; M4 tanks, not M5s).
2) full planning prep for the target, also an AGC in the TF to help speed unload.
3) as much Naval & Aerial bombardment of the target as you can provide, prior to the invasion.
4) full interdiction of enemy re-supply during the pre-invasion period. in-range DBs should search/navattack around the target, w/ ground-attack against the target as the 2ndary mission.
5) run the AmphTF into the target hex, Remain on Station & Do Not Unload. (of course you've already swept for mines, and have near-complete air superiority.)
6) then you can unload/assault in the subsequent turn & have 4 full amph-unload phases to unload before the ground-combat phase. the AmphTF must include DD/CL/CA/BBs to suppress enemy gunfire against your assault. (lighter ships w/ less than 5" guns need not apply for this role.)
7) note the turn-sequence. you get 4 unload-phases, then ground-combat, then spoilage.
8) if the initial assault is not successful, you've got several options. both sides likely took hvy losses, likely the defender's fort-level was reduced. if you've got viable AV on the hex, you can task it to assault again, even if it's got no supply. b/c if you've got add'l amphTFs in the hex, you can task them to unload - they'll have 4 turns to unload before the next ground-combat.
9) you can set your on-target troops to attack, or defend. you can set your reinf troops to land, or to wait (new troops unloaded will trigger another shock-attack). you can set your supply-ships to unload or not. new unloading TFs will need gunfire-support DDs (or better) if they are to survive enemy fire.

atoll-invasions require that you prep the target w/ heavy preliminary bombardement, bring enough 1st-line strength to banjo the enemy on your 1st assault, and have add'l support immediately available for re-supply.


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Post #: 14
RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/28/2013 3:55:26 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Japanese landings on defended atolls are very, very tough. Your ships are going to partial unload troops every phase, that's going to trigger a shock attack every time. If you don't have a lot of landing craft type ships, your only hope is to starve out the garrison, pound it from air and sea repeatedly, and then come with overwhelming force. Don't worry about the 6k stacking limit; that's for how many can stay on the atoll, not invade it. I invaded Baker as Allies with 10k troops and took it in my CG, you just lose supplies and its hard to rebuild the units as long as you are over the 6k limit.

The Japanese AI tried a counter landing on Tarawa after I took that island, but they only sent a regiment when I had the reinforced 1st Marine Division sitting there (plus tanks and artillery). The combat report was mostly "155mm guns hit transport" over and over, until it finally said "remnants of regiment driven into surf".

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Post #: 15
RE: Atoll Invasion - 1/28/2013 6:25:39 PM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

thing w/ Atoll attacks is the 6k-point stacking limit, the auto-shock attack, & supply spoilage.

1) bring your best guys (USMC RGT, not USA; 155 ART BTN, not 105; M4 tanks, not M5s).
2) full planning prep for the target, also an AGC in the TF to help speed unload.
3) as much Naval & Aerial bombardment of the target as you can provide, prior to the invasion.
4) full interdiction of enemy re-supply during the pre-invasion period. in-range DBs should search/navattack around the target, w/ ground-attack against the target as the 2ndary mission.
5) run the AmphTF into the target hex, Remain on Station & Do Not Unload. (of course you've already swept for mines, and have near-complete air superiority.)
6) then you can unload/assault in the subsequent turn & have 4 full amph-unload phases to unload before the ground-combat phase. the AmphTF must include DD/CL/CA/BBs to suppress enemy gunfire against your assault. (lighter ships w/ less than 5" guns need not apply for this role.)
7) note the turn-sequence. you get 4 unload-phases, then ground-combat, then spoilage.
8) if the initial assault is not successful, you've got several options. both sides likely took hvy losses, likely the defender's fort-level was reduced. if you've got viable AV on the hex, you can task it to assault again, even if it's got no supply. b/c if you've got add'l amphTFs in the hex, you can task them to unload - they'll have 4 turns to unload before the next ground-combat.
9) you can set your on-target troops to attack, or defend. you can set your reinf troops to land, or to wait (new troops unloaded will trigger another shock-attack). you can set your supply-ships to unload or not. new unloading TFs will need gunfire-support DDs (or better) if they are to survive enemy fire.

atoll-invasions require that you prep the target w/ heavy preliminary bombardement, bring enough 1st-line strength to banjo the enemy on your 1st assault, and have add'l support immediately available for re-supply.





I would add that you should put old BBs in your invading TFs as they will soak up the shore fire and deal out nasty counter battery. I find this better than using them to bombard.

And, for later on, the rocket firing Allied LCIs do work and are a must in your landing craft or barge TFs.

_____________________________

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Sigismund of Luxemburg

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Post #: 16
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