Matrix Games Forums

Join the Matrix Team at Historicon!Recruiting Privates for Germany at War: Barbarossa 1941!Ageod takes you back to the Civil War Battle Academy iPad and PC 50 per cent off!Close Combat Last Stand Arnhem v5.60.53 update Allied Corps Walkthrough playlist and AARConflict of Heroes: Ghost Divisions Released!Pandora Beta Playthrough VideosGermany at War: Barbarossa 1941 Announced!Great Battles Medieval coming to your tablet with a 50 per cent off launch sale!		 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Had Yamamoto survived...

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Had Yamamoto survived... Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 2:34:50 PM   
Gary Childress


Posts: 4896
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online 		If Yamamoto hadn't been killed and instead stayed the rest of the war as Japanese CinC, would there have been much difference? Would he have perhaps been able to delay some of the Japanese defeats?
Post #: 1
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 3:06:27 PM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

Posts: 607
Joined: 12/1/2005
From: A Very Nice Place in the USA
Status: online 		I doubt it. It is hard to make chicken soup using chicken poop.

(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 2
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 3:23:31 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 2380
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: online 		But what if Yamamoto had come back as a zombie?

(in reply to Cpt Sherwood)
Post #: 3
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 4:03:19 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 465
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Agreed.  Yamamoto wasn't above bungling things as Midway showed.

Ed-

_____________________________


(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 4
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 4:29:06 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 15254
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Agreed.  Yamamoto wasn't above bungling things as Midway showed.

Ed-


Yup. Several campaigns (Midway, Coral Sea and much of the Solomons) were poorly orchestrated / planned / run before his demise. This trend (and the resultant spanking the Japanese took) would likely have continued or even accelerated as he overplayed his increasingly poor hand.

_____________________________


(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 5
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 5:06:23 PM   
gradenko_2000

 

Posts: 574
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		If you didn't know Yamamoto died in 43, you might think Operation Sho-Go was still one of his plans from how complex it was, so I doubt there would have been much improvement.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 6
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 5:36:56 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 633
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

If you didn't know Yamamoto died in 43, you might think Operation Sho-Go was still one of his plans from how complex it was, so I doubt there would have been much improvement.


This is what makes me think that the complexity of planning was an inherent flaw in the IJN doctrine, rather than unique to Yamamoto.

However, Sho-Go almost worked...

(in reply to gradenko_2000)
Post #: 7
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 5:44:58 PM   
gradenko_2000

 

Posts: 574
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
This is what makes me think that the complexity of planning was an inherent flaw in the IJN doctrine, rather than unique to Yamamoto.

However, Sho-Go almost worked...

I would agree. Yamamoto just happened to be the guy in the driver's seat, and Pearl Harbor was dead simple enough that it worked, but the IJN was going to come up with these overly elegant plans regardless.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 8
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 5:52:48 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 15254
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

If you didn't know Yamamoto died in 43, you might think Operation Sho-Go was still one of his plans from how complex it was, so I doubt there would have been much improvement.


This is what makes me think that the complexity of planning was an inherent flaw in the IJN doctrine, rather than unique to Yamamoto.

However, Sho-Go almost worked...


So-losses for Leyte Gulf were:

Allies: 1 CVL; 2 CVE; 2 DD; 1 DE, circa 200 planes

Japanese: 1 CV; 3 CVL; 3 BB; 10 CA; 11 DD, circa 500 planes

Even IF the IJN had been able to shoot up a few Allied transports and sink them with their contingents in toto (unlikely to have transpired in that fashion in any case), this was still a catastrophic loss for the IJN. It would not have been reversed by some additional damage to APA or AKAs disembarking the landing forces after the fact.

Sho-Go 'almost worked' in the same way that Midway almost was a Japanese victory and Hiroshima was a near-run thing. They had a chance right up until the point where they lost terribly and got pummeled.

_____________________________


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 9
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 6:36:31 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 633
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		almost worked...if you consider that the war was already lost and it was really just a "fingering the hawk" move. The time for the momentum-stopping major actions was in late 1942/early 1943, not 1944/1945. The material effect of losing the landing forces wouldn't have meant much, but the effect on morale it would have had on morale is hard to estimate. And what if Admiral "likes to play soldier" Turner had been lost?!

But in seriousness, what could IJN do with a fleet of ships that had just been cut off from its fuel supply?

"fingering the hawk":

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 10
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 6:45:47 PM   
linrom

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 2/20/2002
Status: offline 		It's hard to say when your enemy has your plans and knows all your moves in advance. At the very least, he might have figured out that US broke Japanese naval code. And that would have made a HUGE difference. For one, US couldn't just send a few tug boats to sink all the Japanese submarines because they knew their locations as soon as they came off the production line.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 11
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 6:48:59 PM   
gradenko_2000

 

Posts: 574
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		Sho-Go worked in the sense that Halsey took the bait almost exactly as the IJN had planned it.

Sho-Go did not work in the sense that even if Halsey took the bait, Kurita was completely unable to deliver.

(in reply to linrom)
Post #: 12
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 7:02:03 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 1402
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline 		Yamamoto was a product of his culture and as some have indicated above, that culture was the foundational source of destruction for the Japanese. The rigidity of rank and following orders, the lack of free will and the idea that to die for one's emperor rather than to live and fight another day all come together in an overwhelmingly negative approach to the task at hand, winning a war. In Japanese culture of the time, it was more important to die correctly than to win an action. What Japan needed and DIDN'T have was someone who could step outside that culture and still be acceptable. Look at Rear Admiral Tanaka... sidelined despite considerable success. Thus in answer to the question originally put forth, I don't think Yamamoto living would have made any difference. Him going earlier MIGHT have, but I doubt that too, as those who followed would not have challenged the main stream thinking of the time.

(in reply to gradenko_2000)
Post #: 13
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 7:19:34 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 15254
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
Halsey took the bait


Halsey taking the bait was the 'cost' side of this equation. The Japanese were unable to deliver any benefit after Halsey beat on their carriers. A plan that doesn't maximize the benefits at the lowest possible cost is a poorly designed plan. The supposition that it 'worked' is incorrect, whether or not Halsey took the bait.

_____________________________


(in reply to gradenko_2000)
Post #: 14
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 7:23:08 PM   
Capt Hornblower


Posts: 182
Joined: 10/29/2010
Status: offline 		It would be nice to think that had Yamamoto survived into 1945 he could have been well enough respected and influential to have convinced the Emperor and the High Command of the folly of continuing the war, had he wished.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 15
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 7:23:42 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 3393
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

If Yamamoto hadn't been killed and instead stayed the rest of the war as Japanese CinC, would there have been much difference? Would he have perhaps been able to delay some of the Japanese defeats?


That is a smiliar argument to Stonewall Jackson....

I don't think either would have made a difference..

_____________________________

Follow our WiTPAE team game against bilbow and hartwig.modrow http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2965846&mpage=1&key=?

Follow my Rising Sun game against Schanilec. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3294296&mpage=1&key=�

(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 16
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 7:49:20 PM   
Barb


Posts: 1490
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

If you didn't know Yamamoto died in 43, you might think Operation Sho-Go was still one of his plans from how complex it was, so I doubt there would have been much improvement.


This is what makes me think that the complexity of planning was an inherent flaw in the IJN doctrine, rather than unique to Yamamoto.

However, Sho-Go almost worked...


So-losses for Leyte Gulf were:

Allies: 1 CVL; 2 CVE; 2 DD; 1 DE, circa 200 planes

Japanese: 1 CV; 3 CVL; 3 BB; 10 CA; 11 DD, circa 500 planes

Even IF the IJN had been able to shoot up a few Allied transports and sink them with their contingents in toto (unlikely to have transpired in that fashion in any case), this was still a catastrophic loss for the IJN. It would not have been reversed by some additional damage to APA or AKAs disembarking the landing forces after the fact.

Sho-Go 'almost worked' in the same way that Midway almost was a Japanese victory and Hiroshima was a near-run thing. They had a chance right up until the point where they lost terribly and got pummeled.


I cant fully agree with you - the question was not about sinking several APA/AKA/LSTs... It was the troops aboard. US would be SHAKEN AND SHOCKED by thousands of casualties aboard those ships! The public outrage would be such that Pearl Harbor thingy would appear like kids play. A regiment sunk means 3000 casualties. A Division 15000. Number you certainly don't want to appear on Newspapers across country.
Not to mention thousands tons of equipment, rations, munitions, airfield mats, tents, artillery, radar sets, etc. Operations at Philippines would be thrown back by several months at least.

_____________________________


"Hello IT. Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 17
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 8:14:20 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 12442
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

almost worked...if you consider that the war was already lost and it was really just a "fingering the hawk" move. The time for the momentum-stopping major actions was in late 1942/early 1943, not 1944/1945. The material effect of losing the landing forces wouldn't have meant much, but the effect on morale it would have had on morale is hard to estimate. And what if Admiral "likes to play soldier" Turner had been lost?!

But in seriousness, what could IJN do with a fleet of ships that had just been cut off from its fuel supply?

"fingering the hawk":


My understanding is that the troops were all ashore already and only some supplies were still being unloaded.

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/site/staffmonkeys/

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 18
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 8:29:20 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3115
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline 		As has been said already, with Yamamoto and his still being around in 1945, there could have been an earlier cessation of the war. Because for all of his command operational and tactical failures, Yamamoto was a realist when it came to the strategic situation. He had already in 1941 mapped out the basic outcome of the conflict, and history was to prove him was reasonably acute in his timeline and outcomes.

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 19
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 9:22:27 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 15254
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

If you didn't know Yamamoto died in 43, you might think Operation Sho-Go was still one of his plans from how complex it was, so I doubt there would have been much improvement.


This is what makes me think that the complexity of planning was an inherent flaw in the IJN doctrine, rather than unique to Yamamoto.

However, Sho-Go almost worked...


So-losses for Leyte Gulf were:

Allies: 1 CVL; 2 CVE; 2 DD; 1 DE, circa 200 planes

Japanese: 1 CV; 3 CVL; 3 BB; 10 CA; 11 DD, circa 500 planes

Even IF the IJN had been able to shoot up a few Allied transports and sink them with their contingents in toto (unlikely to have transpired in that fashion in any case), this was still a catastrophic loss for the IJN. It would not have been reversed by some additional damage to APA or AKAs disembarking the landing forces after the fact.

Sho-Go 'almost worked' in the same way that Midway almost was a Japanese victory and Hiroshima was a near-run thing. They had a chance right up until the point where they lost terribly and got pummeled.


I cant fully agree with you - the question was not about sinking several APA/AKA/LSTs... It was the troops aboard. US would be SHAKEN AND SHOCKED by thousands of casualties aboard those ships! The public outrage would be such that Pearl Harbor thingy would appear like kids play. A regiment sunk means 3000 casualties. A Division 15000. Number you certainly don't want to appear on Newspapers across country.
Not to mention thousands tons of equipment, rations, munitions, airfield mats, tents, artillery, radar sets, etc. Operations at Philippines would be thrown back by several months at least.


You're assuming too much.

A pair of DDs, a DE and some lightly armed CVEs extracted more than their share of blood from the attacking Japanese. If the Japanese had 'broken through' at Surigao, they would have had to move South to get to the transports still. Undoubtedly, they would have faced some additional opposition on their way there.

Had Oldendorf been able to detach some of his Samar fleet north or had Halsey been able to get off a strike against the Japanese, things could have turned out much worse for the Japanese. There was no reasonable outcome wherein most of the troops would be onboard the assault ships, awaiting their sinking patiently. There could have been WORSE historical outcomes for the Japanese, even if they had come into gun range of the Americans amphibious landings off of Leyte. So, even if 'successful' in getting at the amphibious landings, the outcome could have been worse for the Japanese.



_____________________________


(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 20
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 9:26:45 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 15254
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

It would be nice to think that had Yamamoto survived into 1945 he could have been well enough respected and influential to have convinced the Emperor and the High Command of the folly of continuing the war, had he wished.


I wonder if Yamamoto would have survived to the end of the war in any case. Militant agitators within the Japanese military and government killed off several ranking officers of 'suspect' loyalty near the end. Had Yamamoto spoken out and tried to convince the Emperor and High Command to accept surrender terms, I propose that he would have been assasinated in short order.

_____________________________


(in reply to Capt Hornblower)
Post #: 21
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 9:27:19 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1178
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		The only interesting difference I can see is that given the way Yamamoto liked to put to sea in BB's, he might have been commanding the "center force" during Leyte Gulf rather than Kurita. Then we might have found out just how much of a fighter he really was.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 22
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/22/2013 9:36:22 PM   
Termite2

 

Posts: 261
Joined: 2/14/2004
Status: offline

Yes, by oct 22nd, all the troops had landed. They sunk the CVE's on the 25th.

< Message edited by Termite2 -- 1/22/2013 9:37:18 PM >

_____________________________

"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."--1837

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 23
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/23/2013 12:04:28 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 633
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

The only interesting difference I can see is that given the way Yamamoto liked to put to sea in BB's, he might have been commanding the "center force" during Leyte Gulf rather than Kurita. Then we might have found out just how much of a fighter he really was.


I re-read a bit on Wiki about the pre-battle action, and how Kurita had to swim for it when his CA was torpedoed out from under him. And how he immediately got on Yamato.

Why wasn't he on Yamato to begin with? Some kind of humble vanity? I find it hard to believe that Atago (or was it Takao?) had better command facilities than Yamato, which was only 3 years old.

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 24
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/23/2013 12:47:04 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

Posts: 574
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
My understanding is that the troops were all ashore already and only some supplies were still being unloaded.

Correct. Even if Kurita had managed to reach the transports, they would have all been mostly empty.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I re-read a bit on Wiki about the pre-battle action, and how Kurita had to swim for it when his CA was torpedoed out from under him. And how he immediately got on Yamato.

Why wasn't he on Yamato to begin with? Some kind of humble vanity? I find it hard to believe that Atago (or was it Takao?) had better command facilities than Yamato, which was only 3 years old.

Kurita was on a cruiser because of IJN doctrine as it related to torpedo attacks and how cruisers were supposed to be the tip of the spear for such actions.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 25
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/23/2013 1:49:09 AM   
3rd ACR Tanker


Posts: 217
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Clinton, South Carolina
Status: offline 		In all reality, the outcome would not have changed after Midway. But then it poses the question, just how different would the war had gone, if Yamamoto's commanders at Pearl Harbor, had launched a Third Strike against Pearl to get the dry docks and Oil tanks. Further raises the question of if we had not followed the destroyer as it ran back to the Japanese Fleet at Midway..Once Midway was over, I believe the handwriting was on the wall for Japan, so if Yamamoto had survived, I do not believe that it would have changed much. Yamamoto was a product of the pre-war indoctrination and as such struck me as unable or unwilling to learn new tricks and adapt to the ever changing situation. On the political side, the in fighting between the Navy and Army would not have abated, and if the Army felt he was more of a threat to the command culture, then I agree they would have done him in.

But that is what makes this game so great, knowing what we know now about him and his plans, we can fight it out just to see if anything would have changed. But that would mean, both sides would have to stick to what they knew then, and not play with hindsight. That would be an interesting project if it could be done.

_____________________________

3rd ACR Tanker
3/4 US Cav Trooper
Brave Rifles

"Professional soldiers are predictable; the world is full of dangerous amateurs."

(in reply to gradenko_2000)
Post #: 26
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/23/2013 3:12:31 AM   
scout1


Posts: 1707
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

If Yamamoto hadn't been killed and instead stayed the rest of the war as Japanese CinC, would there have been much difference? Would he have perhaps been able to delay some of the Japanese defeats?


Japan would have lost the war in an ugly fashion ........

Wait they did that anyway ......

(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 27
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/23/2013 3:54:24 AM   
Sredni

 

Posts: 695
Joined: 9/30/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I wonder if he would have ended up tried and hung after the war if he made it that far.

(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 28
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/23/2013 3:43:52 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 633
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Kurita was on a cruiser because of IJN doctrine as it related to torpedo attacks and how cruisers were supposed to be the tip of the spear for such actions.


Learn something new on these forums just about every day. Thanks.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

I wonder if he would have ended up tried and hung after the war if he made it that far.


Given the pseudo-love affair that US culture seems to have with him, I'm not sure. Almost certainly he'd have been tried for something, but somehow I don't think he'd have been given a death sentence.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 1/23/2013 3:48:26 PM >

(in reply to gradenko_2000)
Post #: 29
RE: Had Yamamoto survived... - 1/23/2013 6:30:59 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6271
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: online 		He died in April 1943. I would say that the war was already lost by that time. I doubt his presence would have had very little impact on the remainder of the war. Unless he could have convinced the Americans to build more BBs in lieu of Essex class carriers.....

_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Had Yamamoto survived... Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.094